How to make battleships a more attractive purchase

  • '17 '16

    Transports would still be required to mount larger invasions, but supported by the larger capital ships (which could break out for smaller actions without putting defensless transports at risk every time).

    I would definitely buy a cruiser at 12, or battleship at 20 if it got another ground unit into amphibious.  I think players might be more likely to put these units at risk on the early cat and mouse naval game, than they are when transports have to be escorted. Might lend itself to less naval stacking around major transport fleets and earlier break out moves with the ships that survive the first round.

    It will improve the total game experience I think.


  • I understand that battleships seem underpowered by the sheer number of IPC’s they cost. The idea that they can transport one unit is horrible. battleships aren’t transports by no means. Historically they were the ship that bombarded an island or defended a carrier group. Normally what I do is up their bombardment hit up a number AND allow them to attack twice in a combat round (note this double roll for one battleship is only on attack). this makes them a solid buy for an offensive minded navy

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    Well the idea is that historically, attack transports APA and LSI were frequently supported by Battleships and other larger warships, which would bombard the coast to clear the way for amphibious invasions. So in my way of thinking its really not that much of a stretch. All you are doing is abstracting from the single ship to include within it aspects of the larger battle-group that it is supporting. I mean, to me the 1 unit transported idea seemed simple and easy to adapt, which was the main reason I suggested it. Since it could be implemented without having to really change anything (cost etc). I’m sure there are a number of alternatives that we could come up with, but those are probably more complex. You could have battleships boost a transport in a way similar to how artillery boosts infantry, or you could design some sort of new combat mechanism for it, or an increased attack value on bombardment. But then you are talking about a more sizable addendum to the rules associated with the unit, or creating new rules which have no analogue in the current game. It could work, I’m sure, it just seems a bit more complicated.

  • Customizer

    Without getting too wild, and fitting within game mechanics, you could simply boost firepower to land units + 1 in uncontested amphibious assaults for all rounds just like artillery does making BBs more valuable. this could be modified to include cruisers too. BBs can support 2 INF and cruisers can support 1. Do this for all rounds of combat and not simply a bombardment.

  • '17 '16

    @toblerone77:

    Without getting too wild, and fitting within game mechanics, you could simply boost firepower to land units + 1 in uncontested amphibious assaults for all rounds just like artillery does making BBs more valuable. this could be modified to include cruisers too. BBs can support 2 INF and cruisers can support 1. Do this for all rounds of combat and not simply a bombardment.

    Interesting idea which I completly forgot could be used as a way to promote BBs and CAs (when we were trying to introduce a more historically accurate shore bombardment for Destroyers and in general).
    Destroyers able to get a Shore Bombardment? (1942/1940) http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=30249.msg1260861#msg1260861

    1942.2 & G40 Improving historical accuracy of amphibious assault
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33217.msg1262175#msg1262175

    This should be kept within the limits of only paired Infantry units being unloaded from transports in an Amphibious assault get this bonus.
    But any INF cannot get both bonus from Art and BBs or Cruiser. It is still a combined arms, right?

    Even if it is for all combat rounds, this will be a limited bonus since Infantry units is always the first casualty taken.
    It will mostly fade by itself in subsequent rounds, due to attrition.


    As read another time, by " boost firepower to land units + 1" do you really intent to make Armor A4 and Art A3 during a debarkment?


    Probably, it is in this post you got the first development of this idea of BBs and Cruisers providing support to Infantry/Marines:
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=22292.msg1101675#msg1101675

  • Customizer

    I say “land units” generally meaning Mechs and Inf. I leave it open to debate as people will want to refine it to their own tastes and may have other units (HBG comes to mind) besides OOB. The general idea is however that BBs and CAs will essentially act as artillery and “advanced artillery” meaning BBs can support two units CAs support one. I might suggest that even if there is a naval battle they would still act as seaborne artillery. The idea would make both vessels a more valued purchase but limit is power to amphibious assaults.

  • '17 '16

    @toblerone77:

    I say “land units” generally meaning Mechs and Inf. I leave it open to debate as people will want to refine it to their own tastes and may have other units (HBG comes to mind) besides OOB. The general idea is however that BBs and CVs will essentially act as artillery and “advanced artillery” meaning BBs can support two units CVs support one. I might suggest that even if there is a naval battle they would still act as seaborne artillery. The idea would make both vessels a more valued purchase but limit is power to amphibious assaults.

    Cool idea, I forgot also about Mech Inf.

    So, at least with OOB, Cruisers act as artillery support and Battleships provides an Advanced artillery support for Infantry and Mechanized Infantry during an amphibious assault.
    Cruiser (CA) give +1A boost to 1 Infantry or Mech Inf unit, in addition to the first round shore bombardment @3.
    Battleship (BB) give +1A, boost to up to 2 Infantry or Mech Inf units, in addition to the first round shore bombardment @4.
    In addition, a naval battle in a SZ doesn’t block this kind of Artillery support.

    Now the question remain: is it enough incentive for a cruiser at 12 IPCs and BB at 20 IPCs?

    I found this capacity nearer a historical feel, at least.


  • @toblerone77:

    Without getting too wild, and fitting within game mechanics, you could simply boost firepower to land units + 1 in uncontested amphibious assaults for all rounds just like artillery does making BBs more valuable. this could be modified to include cruisers too. BBs can support 2 INF and cruisers can support 1. Do this for all rounds of combat and not simply a bombardment.

    Very good idea! I was thinking making BB’s support cruisers on bombard and attack. This would make a cruiser and BB attacking or bombarding 2 4’s.

  • 2024 '22 '21 '19 '15 '14

    This is probably the best solution we can get. I like it because it links the two main warships with transports, and enhances their value on amphibious, but without coopting the specific ability of the transport itself.

    The only thing to account for is how Battleships and Cruisers interact with transports that are unloading 1 Inf + 1 Artillery, or 1 inf + 1 tank.

    For simplicity it is probably best to treat all land units equally. The only concern might be the potency of the existing artillery unit when combined with this new form of battleship and cruiser support.

    I might suggest, if it proves overpowered when combined with normal bombardment, that this new land combat role should just supercede and replace normal bombardment. This would simplify things and lead to less confusion overall. Especially since bombardment as it stands is rather complex (the whole casualties firing back aspect, and separate combat phase etc.) The idea suggested above would eliminate that weirdness and streamline everything into regular combat, just with the bonus added. Seems fairly easy


  • We recently tested the following, and we were quite confident with it:

    Battleship: 17 IPC (no changes to rules)
    Cruiser: 9 IPC (Attack decreased to 2)

    Battleships now are a real strong weapon, as far as you can afford them. Especially if you already have the superior navy, the hit absorption is useful, as you hopefully don’t lose any units in battles vs smaller navies. A really strong buy for USA and/or Japan.

    Cruisers get a completely new job. They are the cheapest way to get a strong defense. Especially useful for defending small groups of transports against enemy air raids. They totally outvalue aircraft carriers in this role, but their ability to support a subsequent land battle is very limited (bombard at only 2. No fighters can participate in defending the land units later on). Therefore Cruisers shine at attacking islands, but carriers are still better for large invasions.

  • '17 '16

    Do you mean that Cruiser get this stats:
    Attack 2
    Defend 3
    Move 2
    Shore bombard  2
    Cost 9

    It is a completely new idea.
    I like this concept because it provides a way to understand why many Cruisers were Anti Aircrafts platforms.

    IMO, I think that a balanced cost compared to BB should be 10 IPCs instead.
    Because for 18 IPCs, you would get a 2xD3 on defense compared to a single Defense @4 for Battleship.
    The 1 IPC higher is not enough.
    With 20 IPCs, it means a 3 IPCs difference for 2 Cruisers.

    Did you try the reverse?
    Attack 3
    Defend 2


  • @Baron:

    Do you mean that Cruiser get this stats:
    Attack 2
    Defend 3
    Move 2
    Shore bombard  2
    Cost 9

    It is a completely new idea.
    I like this concept because it provides a way to understand why many Cruisers were Anti Aircrafts platforms.

    Exactly

    Edit:
    However, one should keep in mind that the Allies do profit a bit more from these changes as the Axis. Therefore the bid should maybe adapted to that.

  • '17 '16

    @Baron:

    Do you mean that Cruiser get this stats:
    Attack 2
    Defend 3
    Move 2
    Shore bombard  2
    Cost 9

    It is a completely new idea.
    I like this concept because it provides a way to understand why many Cruisers were Anti Aircrafts platforms.

    IMO, I think that a balanced cost compared to BB should be 10 IPCs instead.
    Because for 18 IPCs, you would get a 2xD3 on defense compared to a single Defense @4 for Battleship.
    The 1 IPC higher is not enough.
    With 20 IPCs, it means a 3 IPCs difference for 2 Cruisers.

    Did you try the reverse?
    Attack 3
    Defend 2

    The issue is that it makes another Sea unit better on defense than attack.
    Same as Carrier and planes.

    I believe that Cruiser should be an offensive weapon inside the ships roster.
    Otherwise that makes Fleet on defense too hard to attack by the same warships roster on 1 unit for 1 unit basis.


  • @Baron:

    I believe that Cruiser should be an offensive weapon inside the ships roster.
    Otherwise that makes Fleet on defense too hard to attack by the same warships roster on 1 unit for 1 unit basis.

    As it is already with carriers? ^^

  • '17 '16

    @arwaker:

    @Baron:

    I believe that Cruiser should be an offensive weapon inside the ships roster.
    Otherwise that makes Fleet on defense too hard to attack by the same warships roster on 1 unit for 1 unit basis.

    As it is already with carriers? ^^

    Yes.
    1 Carrier Att 1 Def 2 + 2 Fgs A3 D4=
    Attack 7 Defense 10

    If Cruiser A2 D3 is added into the mix, 2 units (A4 D6) for example:
    Attack 11 Defense 16, 5 units.
    The same 5 units on offense vs defense are overwhelmed.

    A&A Calc:
    Overall %*: A. survives: 15% D. survives: 82.8% No one survives: 2.3%

    http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=2&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=2&aCru=&aCar=1&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=2&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=2&dCar=1&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=


    If, instead, Cruiser A3 D2 is added into the mix, 2 units (A6 D4) for example:
    Attack 13 Defense 14, 5 units.

    The same 5 units on offense vs defense are still beaten up, but get almost twice the odds of survival (15% vs 28%):
    A. survives: 28.2% D. survives: 68.9% No one survives: 3%

    http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=2&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=2&aCar=1&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=2&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=2&dCru=&dCar=1&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

  • '17 '16

    The only way I see to keep the defense against planes manifesto is to provide
    the 1 AA roll per cruiser.

    Cruiser
    Attack 3
    Defend 2
    Move 2
    Shore bombard  3
    Special 1 defensive AA first shot @1 against up to 1 plane/per cruiser unit.
    Cost 10


    In such situation as above,
    if Cruiser A3 D2 is added into the mix, 2 units (A6 D4) for example:
    Attack 13 Defense 14, 5 units.

    A. survives: 22.1% D. survives: 75.6% No one survives: 2.3%

    http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&AA=on&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=2&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=2&aCar=1&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=2&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=2&dCru=&dCar=1&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

    That way, Cruiser is clearly not better than Destroyer against incoming Submarines.
    But you still get a better Anti-Aircrafts platform while keeping his single offensive roll of Shore bombardment.

    This can be balance with a 17-18 IPCs 2 hits Battleship.

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