Mechanized Infantry for Germany

@axisandalliesplayer:

@ItIsILeClerc:

If the allies are played strongly, I consider it very rare for Germany to be able to ‘win’ an attack on Moscow GE6. Or even GE7 - GE9 for that matter.

A concerted strat bombing campaign can really improve the axis chances in Moscow. And if the allies (UK) are shipping in so many air that it precludes strat bombing or hitting Moscow than they’re likely weaker elsewhere. Don’t meet the enemy’s main strength head to head if you can help it. Find where he’s vulnerable and hit that instead. Or at least force him to stop sending the air into Moscow and send them elsewhere if possible.

I had a game like that once a while back. Normally, as Germany, once my main force gets to Moscow, I attack. In the rounds preceding, I usually send bombers and pound Russia’s IC in Moscow. However, this one game Russia had this huge stack of infantry, something like 60 or more, plus a couple of tanks and artillery with 7 fighters. Also, there was 2 UK fighters, 1 ANZAC fighter and 1 US fighter. So, I was not able to SBR them because they had so many dang interceptors and I only had 4 or 5 bombers.
So, I ended up taking Stalingrad and the Caucasus and had two very large armies sitting there staring at the Russians (Smolensk and Bryansk).
Even with both of my armies, I wasn’t sure about getting through that huge stack of infantry. However, since Russia had mostly infantry, they couldn’t really attack either of my armies either. They could have destroyed one of them, but that would leave them weak in Moscow for the other army to attack along with all my Luftwaffe (except for the few planes I kept in the west). So we basically just sat and stared at each other.
Meanwhile, Japan had taken all of the northern and far eastern Soviet territories. So Russia was only making around 5-6 IPCs per round. They wouldn’t send anything out to try and take any territories back because they didn’t want to weaken their capital force.
As Germany, I was making enough money that I could keep adding infantry from the Ukraine and Leningrad and Stalingrad factories, plus a few tanks/mechs racing over from Germany each round. In addition to that, I had enough to have some Luftwaffe and U-Boats to keep the US and UK at bay and do some convoy damage against England. I also did a little SBR damage against England, but they also did some against me in Paris, Normandy and W Germany. Italy was taking most of UK’s attention and they were almost evenly matched income wise because of my convoying and SBRs.
Japan held most of US attention in heavy naval builds. Most of what US contributed to Europe was in bombers and fighters. They did give me a really hard time in SBRs. While I pretty much left my French factories bombed out, I had to keep repairing the W Germany factory to keep pumping out U-Boats and my own planes.
Anyway, it really took a long time, something like 12 rounds or so, but I eventually attacked and took Moscow. It was one titanic battle.

@axisandalliesplayer:

A concerted strat bombing campaign can really improve the axis chances in Moscow. And if the allies (UK) are shipping in so many air that it precludes strat bombing or hitting Moscow than they’re likely weaker elsewhere. Don’t meet the enemy’s main strength head to head if you can help it. Find where he’s vulnerable and hit that instead. Or at least force him to stop sending the air into Moscow and send them elsewhere if possible.

I do so much agree with that! How much Stratigec bombers do you (plan to ;-)) use for that, A&Aplayer?

Personally I plan to have 11STR ready for bombing turn 7 and 14STR turn 8 (assuming no losses).
Apart from that, at the start of turn 7 the allies will also have a combined force in the Atlantic/London/Gibraltar/Norway of 14FTR, 3TAC, 16INF, 8ART, 2ARM, 4MECH, 3CV, 2CA, 3DD. This is assuming some naval losses AND Germany having built up adequate defenses. Adequate means at least 3AAA, 3INF, 3ART, 15MECH, 10ARM in West Germany and a similar force in Germany itself. Else the Axis suffering will have no limits: The USA can take Denmark (it already has Norway), and then the UK can grab Berlin. Or the allies simply land in Normandy unopposed and either Liberate France or start producing from Normandy + South France for a while and THEN liberate France (and conquer Italy). I know I make it sound very easy, but this is the cold threat that Germany is facing.

With the above ‘adequate’ minimum defenses, Germany is still not able to stop Normandy-landings. For that, it needs a total of 3AAA + 6INF + 6ART + 25MECH + 15ARM + 2STR…
Germany can put down this kind of force (after all, it has 6 turns to prepare), but all these German forces will then NOT be active in Russia, putting the German Eastfront in mortal danger (often a very close call whether the Red army can attack or not)… At this turning point the allied fun may or may not begin, but often the very best Germany can do in this situation is to maintain the status quo for a while and then collapse due to the heavy bombing campaing over all it’s ICs, seriously limiting Germany’s production.

@knp:
I think your Russian opponent didn’t calculate any attack possibility ;-), and that the western allies focussed too much on Italy which I assume you had turned into a fortress. From your post I see that you built 2-3STR and had split your forces into Smolensk and Bryansk. Even kept a few planes in the west. Ofc I don’t know the exact kind of force your opponent had in Moscow but, despite it being mostly INF, it is usually enough to project a serious threat even if Germany keeps all its units (including all the Luftwaffe) in 1 area (for example Bryansk). RU7/RU8 (with the Siberians returned), the red army is a borderline case between being strong enough to destroy the german army or not. That is, of course, if Russia builds up like I am used to.
But if the German army is split up (for eaxmple to take and hold on to Stalingrad/Caucasus)… Yes, one of split forces should be destroyed, or, in your game, be at least strafed (after which the other army that wasn’t strafed will also be in danger because of highly unfavorable loss-ratio for Germany).
Maybe the Russians didn’t produce enough, I don’t know but usually building only INF is doubtful for Russia indeed. For a few less INF, Russia should build ~8ART, possibly some more in the turns the Siberians arrive. And man do they make an offensive difference :-).

Last but not least, Russia having only 5-6 IPCs per turn due to Japanese conquests is complete (a-) historical rubbish. Therefore I am happy that there is another complete (a-) historical option open for the allies to balance this: spreading communism in Iraq and Ethiopia + Somalia. It should be more easily gained, for example by just having the allies control Persia to be able to ship an extra NO to Russia. But I guess the designers found that too easy for the allies and I can relate.

Itisileclerc

I agree that Germany while pushing deep into Russia has to Prepare for Normany or Denmark or even Norway has to be on guard but it dosnt have to be alone… Not once did I read that Italy was there to help the burden of combat and it plays a valuable role.

Now I’m sure we can all agree that Italy has a up hill battle with trying to grab as much land as it can before being Either swallowed up or pushed back to the brink of braking, at some point you weight your options and either cut short and build your wall sooner then you like or keep pushing for land.

But if Russia is the prize then I’d have Italy help with the defense around round 3-4 not 100% of its income but little by little.

Also a little dirty trick I’ve seen was If Denmark is heavily fortified and Norway is the easy option. Just start building from Norway to the Baltc sea and really cause hell for Germany!2 carriers and a airbase in Norway will make anyone’s day a pain in the ass for defense.

But as Germany a nice trick I’ve learned is that every single turn build Atleast 1 sub in the Baltic so round 6-7 you have a nice counter punch with some planes and make the allies think twice where to place there Fleat!

Mech. is very useful when you want to have a blitz attack，because of armour’s speed,Inf. can’t protect armour effevtively,but Mech. can do that.(it’s just my personally opinoin) :-)

@Whitshadw:

Itisileclerc

I agree that Germany while pushing deep into Russia has to Prepare for Normany or Denmark or even Norway has to be on guard but it dosnt have to be alone… Not once did I read that Italy was there to help the burden of combat and it plays a valuable role.

Hi Whitshadw,
I agree completely with you on this one. I have put my Italian philosophy somewhere else already (http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33445.0) and didn’t feel to repeat it so shortly afterwards. But you are right, ofc. If you read my ‘breakdown’ of what Germany needs to protect itself from the western allies, you should realize that Italy can fill some of the gaps. In the defenses, of course, not offensively (unless the allies have too few troops).
The more offensive Italy has tried to be (i.e. fighting for control of Africa, Middle East or being active in Russia), the less it can fill gaps against the allies of course because it needs to guard Rome very strongly (LOTS of troops) from turn 4 and on. For this reason Italy must also be cautious with filling gaps. The allied invasion force is very flexible and project an invasion threat all the way from Norway down to Rome.

Your trick sounds interesting. Much like Germany ‘build a STR every turn’. But as with all Axis plans, it has a weakness that the allies can (and should) exploit: you’ll have less land units, Moscow will be easier to defend and the western allies will need less land units to invade, building more CV+FTR/TAC+DD to combat your sub/STR force. And the wonderful thing with CV+FTR is that the FTR/TAC wil still project much threat into the beaches and beyond…

My main point: the Axis cannot win everywhere and will have to pay the price elsewhere if they are offensive in a particular theatre and want to remain so.
And that’s the main part of the allied Job: find the Axis weakness and attack them there. Not engaging them on their strong points. I’d like to add that by engaging I mean attacking. And this finding of weak spots, I might add, is one of the toughest parts (but the very nature) of being an effective allied team.

For Barbarossa most people know that G1/G2 you need to build slow moving units in Germany, and mostly art (some incorporate a Romanian IC build for slower units). This allows your art to be in position to hit Moscow G6-G7 to upgrade your inf w/combined arms (then your mech gets the boost as your inf are lost). Mech for Germany is a no brainier, they need mech/tank builds for the Russian front produced in Germany G3……(or Romania) and former Russian IC’s at some point. IMO you need a good balance of mech/tanks while keeping your tank stack growing. Don’t’ take too much away from your tank stack, and use tacs with them for the Moscow hit (may allow you to hold back some ftrs in the west depending on the situation).

I think you need to build mech/tanks evenly for Germany, let me explain. If things go well in France and the other ground battles G1, you should have your 9 starting tanks survive, but the 4 mech could be lost depending on your attacks. Lets say your 9 tanks, and 2 mech survive and get to the Russian front. If you buy tanks/mech at a 1:1 ratio then you should have the right mix. Say as Germany you end-up building 14 mech, and 14 tanks over time for the East (140 IPCs). This will give you 23 tanks (9+14=23), and 16 mech (2+14=16).  As Itisileclerc said this is most of Germany’s income from G3 through G5, and they are going to be pretty weak on the the western front (but you get the idea).

Looking back at ItIsILeClerc earlier post you can see that too many mech, or two many tanks can be counter productive (need to find the right mix). You need equal mech/tank purchases so you don’t dilute your attack force, and should net you 7 (or so) more tanks then mech.

@ItIsILeClerc:

GE6 attack on Moscow. Germany has used 100% of its income on land units, GE4 & GE5 also aircraft. Germany has in Western Europe: 3ART…

• GERMANY: INF28, MECH20, ART13, ARM20, FTR7, TAC7, STR6

• USSR: AAA4, INF68, MECH5, ART11, ARM5, TAC1, FTR12 (10 RAF units)

Result: no AAA-hits, RUS wins with 9 units. Expected 2 air losses for GER due to AAA-fire: RUS wins with 17 units.

GE6 attack on Moscow. Germany has used 100% of its income on land units, GE4 & GE5 also aircraft. Germany has in Western Europe: 3ART…

• GERMANY: INF28, MECH35, ART13, ARM10, FTR7, TAC7, STR6

• USSR: AAA4, INF68, MECH5, ART11, ARM5, TAC1, FTR12 (10 RAF units)

Result: no AAA-hits, RUS wins with 11 units. Expected 2 air losses for GER due to AAA-fire: RUS wins with 18 units.

GE6 attack on Moscow. Germany has used 100% of its income on land units, GE4 & GE5 also aircraft. Germany has in Western Europe: 3ART…

• GERMANY: INF28, MECH5, ART13, ARM30, FTR7, TAC7, STR6

• USSR: AAA4, INF68, MECH5, ART11, ARM5, TAC1, FTR12 (10 RAF units)

Result: No AAA-hits, RUS wins with 14 units. Expected 2 air losses for GER due to AAA-fire: RUS wins with 18 units.

I think the 20MECH + 20ARM gives the ‘best’ results ;-).
Please note that the German number of units is much more than they should ever be able to throw at Moscow GE6, as this leaves them with nothing in the West. At all. A smart USA/UK should have pretty decent invasion forces by turn 6. Much like 12INF, 7ART, 1ARM, 4MECH, 4FTR, 3STR for the USA alone… Germany must subtract its defenses against this from the attackers at Moscow. And then there is also the UK synergizing with the USA.

The Germans may also need to produce mech for defensive reasons on the Western front. There are  couple ways to defend the Western front.

1. Remnants of the German navy, Luftwaffe/subs that can destroy the allied combo fleet so the ground units don’t get to Europe. Possible if allies underestimate you, and/or the Italians can give you a landing spot for the Luftwaffe that the allies didn’t see (but unlikely).

2. Defend the coastlines, and make them fight for the beaches. Probably not a great idea, because the allies have too many landing spots from Gibraltar (unless you house rule in a boost for art defending amphibs like AA1914 creating an Atlantic Wall LOL).

3. Let them land, and counter attack pushing them back into the sea. This has its risks, because the US can amphib then the UK brings in more ground +air (they go back to back in the turn order). Generally Germany will build inf/art in Paris, and mech in W Germany (maybe a couple mech in Leningrad to counter attack into Norway along w/air power). The allies can land in several places when they’re at Gibraltar, and you need to have a quick response force that is capable of knocking the allies back into the sea (w/air power).

@WILD:

The Germans may also need to produce mech for defensive reasons on the Western front. There are  couple ways to defend the Western front.

1. Remnants of the German navy, Luftwaffe/subs that can destroy the allied combo fleet so the ground units don’t get to Europe. Possible if allies underestimate you, and/or the Italians can give you a landing spot for the Luftwaffe that the allies didn’t see (but unlikely).

2. Defend the coastlines, and make them fight for the beaches. Probably not a great idea, because the allies have too many landing spots from Gibraltar (unless you house rule in a boost for art defending amphibs like AA1914 creating an Atlantic Wall LOL).

3. Let them land, and counter attack pushing them back into the sea. This has its risks, because the US can amphib then the UK brings in more ground +air (they go back to back in the turn order). Generally Germany will build inf/art in Paris, and mech in W Germany (maybe a couple mech in Leningrad to counter attack into Norway along w/air power). The allies can land in several places when they’re at Gibraltar, and you need to have a quick response force that is capable of knocking the allies back into the sea (w/air power).

Good ideas for German defense.
1> I have gotten to do this in a few games. The US brings a rather large fleet to SZ 91, which is normally out of range for my Luftwaffe with the exception of Strat bombers. I would have a little navy (usually 1 CV, 1 BB, 1 CA, maybe a DD and 2-3 subs) and the US fleet is more than enough to fight that off. Then Italy will run over and take Algeria, and suddenly I have a place for my Luftwaffe to land. Then I strike with my navy AND big air force and suddenly the US is stuck with no ships and a bunch of guys stuck on Morocco and/or Gibraltar. Then I just laugh.
Of course, it can come back to haunt me. One of those games all of the US land troops were in Morocco. So, even though I sank the US fleet, the US ground troops wiped out my remaining planes sitting in Algeria. So while I set US back, I was also set back because I no longer had an air force.

2> This can be done, especially if Germany controls the minor ICs in Normandy and S France. As Germany, you just have to make sure to produce 1-3 infantry EVERY round at these little ICs as well as the Paris and W German ICs. The guys from Paris go to Holland/Belgium and guys from W Germany go up to Denmark. Of course, you also have to keep some guys in W Germany itself. As for Norway, it is best if Germany can manage to keep 1 to 3 transports in SZ 113 that can send 2 - 6 guys from Germany each round. You have to try and keep at least 3 fighters at the airbase in W Germany that can protect those transports and if you have a little navy, like perhaps your original CA and BB and perhaps a DD to protect from that pesky Russian sub in 115 if you didn’t get around to destroying it, so much the better.
Ideally, Germany can produce 1 infantry each round for each beach territory (S France, Normandy, Holland, W Germany, Denmark and Norway). That’s just 18 IPCs each round and the rest of Germany’s income can go toward attacking Russia. If you make 2 infantry each round, that comes to 36 IPCs each round which will be rougher to maintain offensive operations in Russia, but will make for a better defense from the Western Allies.
If you can do this each round, by the time the US invasion fleet gets to SZ 91 (Probably round 4), Germany will have at least 3 infantry in each coastal area, 4 by the time US can make an attack. Also, if you do at least 1 infantry for all six territories, and perhaps add an extra 2 or 3 infantry to distribute at whichever ones you choose, your defense will be a little bit stronger. Meaning, you get 1 infantry for each territory, then with the extra 2 infantry add one to Normandy and 1 to Denmark. Next round, the 2 extra infantry go to Norway and Holland. Next round the 2 extra infantry go to S France and W Germany. So each area will get a little extra defense boost every other round or every third round, depending on how many extra infantry you can afford. So by the time the Allies can launch an attack, Germany could have 5-6 infantry in each place.
Also, since many of these territories are connected, wherever the Allies land you can counter attack with guys from an adjacent territory along with planes and tanks you may have in Germany or W Germany. Simply put, the Allies are going to have a hard time choosing a place to land and keeping it.

3> This is kind of covered in my infantry/round defense. As for Norway, like I mentioned it is really good if Germany can manage to hold on to 2 or 3 transports and you can retake Norway like that without having to divert units built in Leningrad. This way the Leningrad units can be used in Russia which is what they were meant for in the first place. Of course, if you just can’t keep any transports, I guess the units from Leningrad will have to be diverted to retake Norway.

1> Yeah, I like to keep the German BB (maybe try hit & run), buy a carrier and add dd/subs over a couple turns. This forces the allies to delay by saying “We’re gonna need a bigger boat” (Jaws quote). The Italians are key in allowing the Germans to utilize the entire air force to hit the allied navy off Gib just as you noted (not always an option if the allies are paying attention). Bummer that the US was able to knock out the Luftwaffe in N Africa in your game  :-(    Of course Germany spending income on navy will also weaken Barbarossa, probably causing a delay sacking Moscow.

2> I could see a few inf to try to weaken the US landing force, but even 5-6 inf won’t do too much damage IMO. You’d be lucky to hit 2-3 units max so you are not getting good bang for your buck IMO (but it could have some effect because you would be def at 2, but most likely attacking at 1, so….). I get how you can have units in place, but you’re still counting on the counter attack to do the job after they have landed (including the UK), so not sure if you should weaken your force by spreading them out, and sacrificing some (those inf sacrificed could save your air force, or keep them firing in the counter attack). A good size stack in Paris is ideal, with another stack (including mobile units) in W Germany is still needed. I could see defending Denmark so they can’t 1-2 punch to rush the German capital though (depends on what the UK can bring, German navy in sz 112/113, your ability to scramble from W Germany to def sz 112/113, and units you might have in your capital if all else fails LOL).

The one thing that would concern me here is if they go for Spain, you would be out of position for an immediate counter attack, so having units in Normandy/S France would be key. They probably won’t have the strength to take out Spain, and both French coastal territories if you stack them, but that is another whole topic…

Honestly I haven’t tried to stack the beaches, too much to cover plus the game lacks an amphid defense IMO (I think that art could have been given a roll as coastal defense here, maybe even a simple first round pre-empt roll at 2 vs amphib, and attacking units are removed and don’t fire back when hit).

3> Like I said above, this is what we see most often. If you can’t take out the allied navy, then try to kill their units once they land w/counter attack from Paris/W Germany. Norway is always a target for the US, and 2-3 transports in conjunction with units from Finland/Leningrad and air power is the way to go (as you noted). As mentioned above, a US invasion of Spain would be a problem…

Good discussion, and it reinforces the fact that you need mobile units (mech) for an Atlantic Wall Defense. Also setting up “Fortress Europe” will take away from your Russian campaign. Hope Italy is in position to help def Europe, and Japan is making headway in the Russian back lands and Caucasus…

@WILD:

Looking back at ItIsILeClerc earlier post you can see that too many mech, or two many tanks can be counter productive (need to find the right mix). You need equal mech/tank purchases so you don’t dilute your attack force, and should net you 7 (or so) more tanks then mech.

I must admit I have always been on the ‘too much ARM’ side of the German production. My own post tought me to do otherwise, hehheh.
For a successfull attack on Moscow (whenever), Germany generally needs more numbers and combat factors than the defenders.

There are  couple ways to defend the Western front.
(…)
3) Let them land, and counter attack pushing them back into the sea. This has its risks, because the US can amphib then the UK brings in more ground +air (they go back to back in the turn order). Generally Germany will build inf/art in Paris, and mech in W Germany (maybe a couple mech in Leningrad to counter attack into Norway along w/air power). The allies can land in several places when they’re at Gibraltar, and you need to have a quick response force that is capable of knocking the allies back into the sea (w/air power).

That is how I personally (try to) defend if I play Germany and the allies build up against me. This is by far the cheapest way of defense and leaves Germany with at least a little production aimed at Russia. If Germany is able to completely prevent allied landings, it will be much undermanned in the east against Russia. Also true the other way around: Germany being able to take Stalingrad + Caucasus and still threaten Moscow at the same time, means the allies will have no problems landing anywhere at Germany’s back and more likely than not will even take West Germany as an eye-for-an-eye of some sort… Allied mistakes (too few troops) aside, of course.

Regarding 1> Personally I think loosing the US fleet in the Atlantic is worth it if this means No more Luftwaffe. Russia should be able to handle the Germans all by themselves now ;-). Even more so because this option also meant more naval builds for Germany in preparation for it.
My general rule for Germany that I like to repeat to myself (playing either axis or allies): Where the Luftwaffe is NOT, Germany is weak and can be pushed back. This will prelude the destruction of the third reich.

Regarding 2> I think it is way too expensive. You no longer just pay for effectiveness in the west by taking it away from the eastfront, as WILD BILL stated; this is downright robbery from eastfront effectiveness, which is very likely to collapse.

Good discussion, and it reinforces the fact that you need mobile units (mech) for an Atlantic Wall Defense. Also setting up “Fortress Europe” will take away from your Russian campaign.

I like this conclusion a lot :-).

Hope Italy is in position to help def Europe, and Japan is making headway in the Russian back lands and Caucasus……

Certainly helps and it requires a strong Japanese land army. The same above statement is true for Japan ofc: Setting up a Japanese army that is able to keep Russia turtled will take away from its Pacific campaign.

@ItIsILeClerc:

Hope Italy is in position to help def Europe, and Japan is making headway in the Russian back lands and Caucasus……

Certainly helps and it requires a strong Japanese land army. The same above statement is true for Japan ofc: Setting up a Japanese army that is able to keep Russia turtled will take away from its Pacific campaign.

Yeah, in some games Germany will let Italy take S. France so they are responsible for defense there. Takes a little of the expense off of Germany. There have been a couple of games where Italy lost it’s fleet and just couldn’t get to Africa or the Middle East, so they started just producing infantry and shucking them all along the western coast. While Germany protected W Germany, Denmark and Norway, Italy had troops from Holland all the way down to S Italy. Of course, even just producing infantry, Italy could only produce so much since they only had about 13 IPCs per turn with no NOs thanks to England (not even the Med NO).

I hate to say this, but I think the guys I play with are possibly on the weaker side concerning strategies and such. In all humility, I think I am the best of all of us in coming up with winning strategies. The reason I say this is after reading some of the strategy ideas some of you guys have come up with. Some of these things none of us would have even thought of.
One example is the US taking Spain, which might be a pretty good idea for the Allies. In our games, we pretty much leave the strict neutrals alone all the time. There have been a few games where the Axis will attack certain strict neutrals but the Allies never do that.
I am curious as to how some of our games would go if a couple of you guys joined the table with some of your rather “unique” ideas.

I do all artillery G1 & G2, then follow it up with mech until I am ready to hit moscow. Works every time, even if he withdraws the troops from Siberia.