Battleships, AA guns and Opening fire step.

  • 2007 AAR League

    Those are good questions regarding Subs “keen2215”! I have only recently learnt the correct answers to some of those questions! And they are:

    Q1: YES

    Q2: If the BB gets hit once, for the first time, then YES the BB gets to fight back. However, if it is already hit once, and get hit a 2nd time, then NO the BB do not get to fight back.

    Q3: If the attacking subs hit, the defending subs STILL get to fight back!

    Q4: YES your subs hits during the Opening fire step, but so does your enemy’s subs…! Only, any non-Sub units of yours that are hit by your enemys attack, DOES get to fight back during regular combat, due to the presence of your DD…
    The thing is that the presence of a DD does not move the attack of the enemy subs to the Regular Combat step - the DD allows the units hit by subs to fight back before they are killed!


  • ahhh I see.

    thank you for answering, really! XDD"


  • Actually,

    Q3: if 2 subs attack 2 subs, they both have opening fire, so, this situation can be easily combared with the most basic normal combat, which is: the attacker rolls dice first and then the defender rolls for hits, too.

    Q4: 1 DD, 2 subs versus 1 trannie and 2 subs? indeed:
    @keen2215:

    only my subs get to hit during the opening fire, and his subs will just hit me during the regular combat? (step3/4, depends on he’s attacking or not.)

    a destroyer makes every special ability of a sub VANISH! so, they can not have opening fire any more!
    so,
    @Perry:

    Q4: YES your subs hits during the Opening fire step, but so does your enemy’s subs…! Only, any non-Sub units of yours that are hit by your enemies attack, DOES get to fight back during regular combat, due to the presence of your DD…
    The thing is that the presence of a DD does not move the attack of the enemy subs to the Regular Combat step - the DD allows the units hit by subs to fight back before they are killed!

    this quote is not a good way of rephrasing the good thinking of keen2215!
    I see it this way: a destroyer has a sophisticated radar on board that can see ALL sea units, so the DD can see a sub coming and alert all units “hey, there’s a sub coming, prepare for battle!!”, while your subs in the example have a sneak attack! the defender never knew what hit them (if they didn’t survive the hit)!
    so, they have NO opening fire at all and are removed if necessary after the opening fire step of the person attacking with the help of a DD.

    about submerging subs?
    subs may only submerge after there has been rolled for attack against them at least ONCE!
    so, if figs attack subs, the subs have to survive a round of throwing dice against them before they can submerge.
    the submerge-ability is comparable with a retreat (BTW: this is the only time a defender can ‘retreat’), thus: at the end of a combat round!
    and they resurface at the end of the following non-combat move!


  • @Axel:

    a destroyer makes every special ability of a sub VANISH! so, they can not have opening fire any more!
    so,
    @Perry:

    Q4: YES your subs hits during the Opening fire step, but so does your enemy’s subs…! Only, any non-Sub units of yours that are hit by your enemies attack, DOES get to fight back during regular combat, due to the presence of your DD…
    The thing is that the presence of a DD does not move the attack of the enemy subs to the Regular Combat step - the DD allows the units hit by subs to fight back before they are killed!

    this quote is not a good way of rephrasing the good thinking of keen2215!

    Umm, no.  A Destroyer does NOT cancel out every special ability of the sub, and Perry’s quote was exactly correct.

    Take a look at the rules (available here: http://www.wizards.com/avalonhill/rules/axis2004.pdf ) specifically pages 15-16.  You’ll see that Destroyers do NOT stop subs from doing **Step 2: Conduct Opening Fire.**  What Destroyers DO do is make subs skip Step 3: Remove Opening Fire Casualties

    So subs, attacking and defending, always roll to hit in Step 2, but thier casualities are only removed in Step 3 if there are no enemy Destroyers present.  If there ARE enemy Destroyes, then sub casualties are removed in Step 6: Remove Casualties
    Just like Perry said.

    PS- And yes, I know enemy Destoyers also cancel out a Subs ability to Submerge or to Treat Hostile Sea Zones as Friendly.


  • thx JamesG,

    I think you’re correct!!!
    my apologies to Perry as well!!!
    Damn, those rules are so weird sometimes.
    while in gameplay, it changes nothing really, I think it’s easier to NOT give the subs their opening fire step when an enemy destroyer is present and only role those dice when you are actually attacking with the rest of your ships…

    well, since it doesn’t affect gameplay at all, I’ll probably keep explaining it to newbies that way, 'cause it’s easier for me to memorize…


  • @Axel:

    while in gameplay, it changes nothing really, I think it’s easier to NOT give the subs their opening fire step when an enemy destroyer is present and only role those dice when you are actually attacking with the rest of your ships…

    I agree, in normal gameplay, its often just as easy to skip the opening fire step when an enemy destroyer is present.

    But if playing low luck, it makes a difference. For instance, take an attacking Sub and BB vs a destroyer.  If you skip opening fire and allow the sub and BB to combine their attack, the Dest will automatically be destroyed, since 4 for the BB plus 2 for the sub equals 6, which is one hit in low luck.

    But by making them split their attack, the Dest may survive round one.  The sub could roll a 3 to 6 in opening fire (missing) and the BB rolls a 5 or 6 in normal fire (also missing).


  • hmmm,

    never heared of ‘playing low luck’.
    I’m not sure I understand how those rules go, but if I understand it correctly, things could turn out different in that case, indeed…
    I never knew this way of playing before, so I could not have known the possible consequences on dice…


  • @Axel:

    never heared of ‘playing low luck’.

    There are probably other threads and websites on the topic, but I’m too lazy to look for them right now.  :-)

    In brief, low luck eliminates the wild swings of luck that regular dice can entail.

    Basically, in each battle you total the attack and defense factors on both sides, divide by six, and each side gets that many hits.  If there is any remainder, a die is rolled to see if that generates an extra hit or not.  So each round of combat can have at most one die roll per side.

    Here is an example.
    2 Tanks, 1 Art, and 2 Inf attacking 3 Inf and 1 Fighter

    In the first round, the attackers total is 3+3+2+2+1=11
    So they get one hit automatically, and a second hit if they roll a 5 or less.

    The Defenders total is 2+2+2+4=10.
    So they get one hit automatically, and a second hit if they roll a 4 or less.

    and so on.

    Luck is still a factor in low luck, which is why it’s not called no luck.  But it’s a much smaller factor.

    Some people like low luck, some don’t.  I’m not sure which I prefer myself.  Also note that strategy is different between the the versions.  The differences a subtle, but they are there, and it is possible to be a good low luck player but a bad regular dice player, and vice versa.

    Edited to add a couple of "or less"es…


  • thx!

    I’ve seen it on various battle sims, too…
    but I didn’t quite understand the meaning of it all.
    Now I do!


  • Indeed, I’ve found the possible ways of ‘luck’…

    I found it on a battlesim that trihero suggested in another thread:
    http://frood.net/aacalc/readme/

    the funny thing is:
    I myself use the concept of ‘low luck’ very frequently when I think about my attacking and defending strategies.
    Anyway, my friends and I still throw dice for resolving the battle :-)
    So, I didn’t know it was labelled this way…

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