SBR's as NA's?

@SS:

This is what we have in game now.

Bombers C10
H Bombers C12

Bomber     D6  1-6  3.5 ave  6 max dam 1 lowest dam

H Bomber  D6+2  1-8  4.5 ave   8 max dam  3 lowest dam

This is the change I’m putting in next game.

Bomber    D8  1-8   4.5 ave    8 max dam  1 lowest dam

H Bomber  D10  1-10  5.5 ave  10 max dam  1 lowest dam

Nice +1 dmg increase.
To your game, it fit perfectly well with no bonus, only 1 dice to roll.

I like the fact that heavy bomber get a wider range from 1 to 10.
I don’t think heavy (high altitude bomber) were more accurate than bomber.
Probably due to the high altitude of bombing.

taamvan,

Excellent analysis on the differences between G40/G42 vs Oztea’s 41. I think in some ways, the 41 setup has “almost” fully realized the potential of the Global board. I like how it initially looks. It makes think of coming into a high level situation brief on in-progress ops. I imagine a table top board would seem very busy at first (I’ve only seen it on triplea, even there it’s cluttered). But like all axis and allies board games, they clean up real quick along the frontiers. Â

I did notice how this setup forces the Axis to stick to realistic solid objectives; but dangles out some “mirages” like Cairo.  I’m of the opposite opinion. I think I’d even evacuate the german tank and 1 infantry on turn 1. Rarely I see people really invest in Cairo and going for the middle east, but on the forums some people talk about it. I’m never good at that.

I don’t know which way the game leans axis or allies. I’ll have to play it out a few more times before I’ll have a definite opinion. Do you remember which sides won at your club? Regardless, it seems very balanced and the US could get real aggressive anywhere it wants immediately. The US does start out with an Army, but Germany has a sizeable European garrison for defense and a nice navy in the Baltic for reinforcing Finland. Russia starts with a destroyer/sub combo in the artic, so they have a chance to kill a german sub in sz 125 and can therefore almost be guaranteed to collect their 5 IPC bonus for a few turns. Also, over time, the allies gain a few more IPCs as the French territories get occupied by allies. Russia might be tempted to stack it’s much larger mobile army at Amur on round 2, but I think it better to move it to Europe.

@seancb Read all of it, very nice :) I always wanted to make “events” for A&A games but it makes the games much more complicated. I will have to reformat everything and print it neatly so everyone can understand the rules and what they roll :grin:

Very old thread but hopefully more people can read it once I comment :)

@Baron:

Here is all the main A&A units roster including the new Sub unit A3 D1 C7 (with less radical changes than my previous post on 3-planes Carrier, but the 3-planes carrier and Fg at 6 IPCs is my preferred ones http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=35222.msg1374545#msg1374545) with a summary of their special abilities (which some are house ruled):

ANTI-AIRCRAFT ARTILLERY A0 D0 NCM1 Cost 3, 1 hit,
1 @1 preemptive against up to 1 plane, able to fire against plane each combat round.

INFANTRY A1-2 D2 M1 Cost 3
Get +1A if paired 1:1 with Artillery or Mechanized Artillery or Heavy Artillery

MECHANIZED INFANTRY A1-2 D2 M2 Cost 4,
Get +1 if paired 1:1 with Artillery or Mechanized Artillery or Heavy Artillery
Can Blitz when paired 1:1 with a Tank

ARTILLERY A2 D2 M1 Cost 4
Gives +1A to 1 Infantry or 1 Mechanized Infantry

(ANTI-TANK GUN) A1 D3 M1 Cost 4 added for completeness
Gives +1D to 1 Infantry only, no Mechanized Infantry
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=35315.msg1380075#msg1380075

(HEAVY ARTILLERY) A3 D2 M1 Cost 5 added for completeness
Gives +1A to 1 Infantry or 1 Mechanized Infantry

(MECHANIZED ARTILLERY) (Self-Propelled Artillery / Assault Gun) A2-3 D2-3 M2 Cost 5 added for completeness
Gives +1A to 1 Infantry or 1 Mechanized Infantry when paired 1:1 with.
Tank Hunter as a Tank Support capacity: gets +1A/D when paired 1:1 with a Tank.
Both bonus can work at the same time.

TANK A3 D3 M2 Cost 6
Can Blitz or allow Mechanized Infantry and Mechanized Artillery to blitz on 1:1 or 1:1:1 basis.
Gives +1A/D to Mechanized Artillery when paired 1:1 with
Gives +1A/D to Tactical Bomber when paired 1:1 with
One bonus can work at the time.

SUBMARINES A3 D1 M2 Cost 7
Surprise Strike, (blocked when at least 1 Destroyer or Anti-Sub Vessel is present),
Submerge, instead of rolling for a Surprise Strike attack (blocked by ASV on a 1:1 basis for the first combat round only),
Stealth Movement: No Hostile Sea-Zone (except ASV can block Submarine Stealth movement on 1:1 basis),
Cannot hit airplanes,
Can hit Transports before Warships (even when there is other escorting warships, but it is the owner’s choice to pick or not Transport unit as casualty).
(Added to recreate opportunity for an Atlantic Battle in 1942.2 and also to reduce the effectiveness of Submarine on offense against Destroyer and costlier warships.)
Can be hit by planes, doesn’t require an Anti-Sub Vessel.
Re: Reality wrecking destroyer rules need a revamp…
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34169.msg1372793#msg1372793

DESTROYER A2 D2 M2 Cost 7
Anti-Sub Vessel: each ASV blocks Surprise Strike capacity of all enemy’s Submarine units present.
Cancel Sub’s Submerge on 1 DD:1 Sub basis for the first combat round only
(When it occurs, defending Subs rolls a Defense @1 in the first round, and any surviving Subs can submerge at the beginning of the second combat round.)
Cancel Sub’s Stealth Movement on 1 DD: 1 Sub basis for Combat or Non Combat Move, all additional Sub units can perform a Stealth Movement as usual.

TRANSPORT A0 D1 M2 Cost 8, 1 hit, taken as last casualty,
Exception: can be picked as a casualty anytime when an enemy’s submarine hit has to be allocated (owner’s choice, as always, to pick or not transport as casualty).
Simplifying units interactions of Transports, Submarines, Destroyers & planes
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34290.msg1320853#msg1320853
@Baron:

Another way to increase a better defense is a compromise for taken last transport A0 D1.
Only Subs hit can be allocated to Transport units before Warships.
This can somehow re-enact sub-warfare against Transport and the Destroyer reactions to attacking Subs.

Must be escorted by a warship when making an amphibious assault in an enemy’s Submarines infested SZ or Transports infested SZ, so to be able to ignore them/ or fight them with combat units.
Otherwise, Submarines and Transports may be ignored during Transport Combat Move or Non Combat Move.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34290.msg1373212#msg1373212

FIGHTER A3 D4 M4 Cost 8
hits enemy’s planes on “1” or “2” roll, or even “3” roll for up to 3 Fg units if an operational Air Base is present.
Gives +1 Attack or +1 Defense to 1 Tactical Bomber if paired 1:1 with.
SBR/TcBR Attack @2, Defend @2, or even defend @3 for up to 3 Fgs if an operational Air Base is present.
Can hit submarines without ASV.

TACTICAL BOMBER A3-4 D3-4 M4 Cost 8
hits enemy’s planes on a “1” roll,
Gets A4 or D4 when paired 1:1 to a Fighter unit or when there is no enemy’s aircraft.
Gets A4 or D4 when paired 1:1 to a Tank unit
SBR/TcBR attack @1,
Allowed to do escort mission of StB without doing TcBR on AB or NB,
Cannot do interception mission on defense,
TcBR damage: 1D6.
Can hit submarines without ASV.

CRUISER A3 D3 M2 Cost 9
Shore bombardment @3
Combined Anti-Air Defense when paired with 1 Battleship and 1 Carrier: get up to 3 preemptive shots @1 against up to three planes.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34985.msg1359001#msg1359001

(G40 ESCORT CARRIER) A0 D1 M2 Cost 9, 1 hit added for completeness
(1942.2 Escort Carrier) A1 D1 M2 Cost 9, 1 hit
Carry 1 Fighter or 1 Tactical Bomber,
Anti-Sub Vessel, working the same as a Destroyer.
Combined Anti-Air Defense when paired with 1 Battleship and 1 Cruiser: get up to 3 preemptive shots @1 against up to three planes.

STRATEGIC BOMBER (2-Engines Medium Bomber) A4 D1 M6 Cost 10
hits enemy’s planes on a “1” roll,
Strategical Bombing Raid (SBR*)/ TBR : Attack @1
SBR/TBR damage: 1D6 on Industrial Complex, Air Base or Naval Base
Can hit submarines without Anti-Sub Vessel.

(High Altitude Strategic BOMBER) (4-Engines Heavy Bomber) A4 D1 M7 Cost 12 added for completeness
hits enemy’s planes on a “1” roll,
Strategical Bombing Raid (SBR*)/ TBR : Attack @1
SBR/TBR damage: 2D6 on Industrial Complex, Air Base or Naval Base
If destroyed by IC’s, AB’s or NB’s AA gun, reduced SBR damage: 1D6-1
No damage if destroyed by Fighter interceptor.
Can hit submarines without Anti-Sub Vessel.
Re: Rethinking Air Units
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34502.msg1331015#msg1331015

1942.2 CARRIER A1 D2 M2 Cost 12, 1 hit
Carry 2 planes (Fgs or TcBs)
Damaged Carrier can still carry 1 plane.
Combined Anti-Air Defense when paired with 1 Battleship and 1 Cruiser: get up to 3 preemptive shots @1 against up to three planes.

G40 CARRIER A0 D2 M2 Cost 14, 2 hits
Carry 2 planes (Fg or TcB)
Combined Anti-Air Defense when paired with 1 Battleship and 1 Cruiser: get up to 3 preemptive shots @1 against up to three planes.

BATTLESHIP A4 D4 M2 Cost 16, 2 hits
Shore bombardment @4
Combined Anti-Air Defense when paired with 1 Cruiser and 1 Carrier: get up to 3 preemptive shots @1 against up to three planes.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34985.msg1359001#msg1359001

If you want to increase battle between planes, allows 1 single Fg or TcB to land in a just conquered territory, as long as it have another extra movement point for landing.

For my part, I would allow 3 types of defensive maneuvers for aircraft:

aerial retreat for attacking planes (all can retreat while letting ground units pursuing battle), this is similar to air retreat from amphibious assault

a limited aerial withdrawal of 1 space anytime after first combat round for 1 defending plane 1 StB or 1 TcB or 1 Fg and

a limited landing in a just conquered territory: 1 plane (either Fighter or Tactical Bomber), as long as it can provide 1 extra movement point for this special landing.

Maybe this can be an interesting variation which provides a better incentive to put at risk some costlier Aircrafts against ground and other defending planes:

TANK A3-4 D3-4 M2 Cost 6
Can Blitz or allow Mechanized Infantry and Mechanized Artillery to blitz on 1:1 or 1:1:1 basis.
Gives +1A/D to Mechanized Artillery when paired 1:1 with
Gets A4 or D4 from Tactical Bomber when paired 1:1 with
Both bonus can work at the time.

FIGHTER A3 D4 M4 Cost 8
hits enemy’s planes on “1” or “2” roll, or even “3” roll for up to 3 Fg units if an operational Air Base is present.
Gives +1 Attack or +1 Defense to 1 Tactical Bomber if paired 1:1 with.
SBR/TcBR Attack @2, Defend @2, or even defend @3 for up to 3 Fgs if an operational Air Base is present.
Can hit submarines without ASV.

TACTICAL BOMBER A3-4 D3-4 M4 Cost 9
hits enemy’s planes on a “1” roll,
Gets A4 or D4 when paired 1:1 to a Fighter unit or when there is no enemy’s aircraft.
Gives +1 Attack/defense to any Tank unit paired 1:1
Both bonus can work at the time.

SBR/TcBR attack @1,
Allowed to do escorting mission for StBs without doing TcBR on AB or NB,
Cannot do interception mission on defense,
TcBR damage: 1D6.
Can hit submarines without ASV.

This make for 8-9-10 IPCs Aircrafts.

Here is a saved game “rough draft” edit of the China set up above, for use with TripleA. Right now it uses the standard turn order, but that can altered if desired. All edits to achieve the set up are logged in the game history.

Note how China is no longer a separate nation but instead placed under direct USA control.
Check the stats column for the total Money, Production, and TUV for the United States.

Burma units may be edited into the appropriate territories per the rules above.

There are no co-located units here, all roundel substitutions in play according to the rules above, including for the Commonwealth (represented here in the save edit by ANZAC at 20, Eire south Africa etc.

It is up to the player to enforce the production rules via the edit mode, or to adjust territory possession as necessary (in the case of liberated territories). Example if Japan takes Hunan, and the Americans then liberate it, the game will show Hunan as Chinese, edit possession back to United states. The same thing for the Commonwealth, or if UK pacific territories reappear after conquest/liberation, edit them back to the appropriate power. Otherwise it works as normal, just remember to enforce the factories at 10, 5, 3.

Edit any Soviet Japan Nap conditions you wish.

If no DoW is desired, then you can have all Axis declare in the first round.

VC or Combat bonuses may be edited into the IPC totals at the end of the turn to augment or replace NOs if desired.

Savegame attached below… the next step would be to create an xml gamefile reflecting the new production units, and the Commonwealth faction (while removing UK pacific and China). Eliminate the politics phase, and create a simple NO option on the VCs. Adjust the turn order to the one outlined above.

Halifax china mod no-colocation.jpg
G40 Halifax 2 China to USA.tsvg

@toblerone77:

What is so hard to understand?

Three STBs make a night raid. The defender rolls three dice and scores 3 hits by a miracle.
So 1.5 hits rounded up, it’s two hits, rounded down it’s one hit. The remaining attackers roll for damage and the total is halved to the nearest IPC worth of damage up or down.
If some one were to use the HR their group could decide.

Want simpler rolls for AA guns during a night raid? Easy use D12 dice and have them roll at 1. That equates .5 pips on a D6 die. Easy.

You got it man!!!  :-o  I completely forgot about this possibility of using D12.

I believe you already play with D12, so it won’t be difficult to introduce it in your game.

Day and night AAA will be distinct this way:
Day AAA, use 1 on D6 or “1” or “2” on D12.
For an average casualty of 2/12 * -12 IPCs = - 2 IPCs/StB run.

Night AAA, use “1” on D12.
For an average casualty of 1/12 * -12 IPCs = - 1 IPC/StB run.

One casualty roll is always better. And you get your half casualty average for Night B.

The last point remaining is on damage roll of 1 StB.
Day time SBR:
D6+2 (avg 5.5) * 5/6 = 27.5 IPCs/6 =      4.583 IPCs/StB - 2 IPCs = 2.583 IPCs/run 100%
D6 (avg 3.5) * 5/6 = 17.5 IPCs/6 =          2.917 IPCs/StB - 2 IPCs = 0.917 IPCs/run 35.5%

Night time SBR:
D6 (avg 3.5) * 11/12 = 38.5 IPCs/12 =    3.208 IPCs/ StB  - 1 IPC = 2.208 IPCs/ run  85%
D3+1 (avg 3) * 11/12 = 33 IPCs/12 =      2.750 IPCs/ StB   - 1 IPC = 1.75 IPCs/ run  68%
D6-1 (avg 2.5) * 11/12 = 27.5 IPCs/12 = 2.292 IPCs/ StB  - 1 IPC = 1.292 IPCs/ run 50%
D3 (avg 2) * 11/12 = 22 IPCs/12 =          1.833 IPCs/ StB  - 1 IPC = 0.833 IPCs/ run  32%

Last Tob77 version 4 out 6 doing 2 IPCs damage:
4/6 * 2 IPCs * 5/6 = 40 IPCs/36 =           1.111 IPCs/StB - 2 IPCs = -0.889 IPCs/run - 34%

AA gun hits halved rounded up version for 2 StBs:
D3+1(avg 3)*11/36=33 IPCs/36=      +0.917 IPCs/ 2StB
D3+1(avg 3)225/36=150 IPCs/36= +4.167 IPCs/ 2StB - 3.667= 1.417/2= 0.709 IPCs/ 1 StB run 27%
                                                                            or -1.834 IPCs/ 1 StB

AA gun hits halved rounded down version for 2 StBs:
D3+1(avg 3)*1/36=3 IPCs/36 =         +0.083 IPCs/2StBs
D3+1(avg 3)235/36= 210 IPCs/36= +5.833 IPCs/2StBs -0.333= 5.583/2= 2.792 IPCs/1 StB run 108%
                                                                             or -0.167 IPCs/ 1 StB

1 StB against AAA repulse @2:
D3+1 (avg 3) * 4/6 = 12 IPCs/6 =      2 IPCs/ StB   - 0 IPC = 2.00 IPCs/ run  77%

Rolling damage first 1 to 4 IPCs, 5 or 6 is a miss and get under AA fire @1:
1+2+3+4+0+0=10/6 IPCs =         + 1.67 IPCs - [(12 IPCs*2/36)= 4/6] .67 = 1 IPC/ run 39%

Night time bombing played as Convoy disruption on 1-3 damage (4-6= 0), no AA fired:
1+2+3+0+0+0=6/6=                     +1 IPC             - 0 IPC = 1 IPC damage/ run 39%

Another way to get a distinctive taste between Fg and TcB on offence is to give attacking Fg a preemptive strike @1, like it is in 1942.2 SBR.

Fg A1 preemptive / D2 regular
TcB A1 / D1
StB A1 /D0, but A1 is like a  1 AAA @1 vs up to 1 plane without preemptive, up to 1 StB or plane whichever is less.

So you kept a progressive scale from D0, to D2.
And every unit get a chance in dogfight phase, no bystander, except for StB on defense.

And how is game balance threatened when both sides can do the same thing? It may upset game tradition, but I don’t see how it hurts game balance. The Brits put a large capacity IC in South africa. Hmmm…the Germans put a large capacity IC in North Africa. Now you’re both fighting somewhere else. Where’s the imbalance?