Alternate 3 planes CV, more Air oriented A&A for G40 or 1942 with TacBs


  • 2017 '16

    Hi, everyone,
    since a long time with the help of Uncrustable and recently with Razor,
    I hoped to develop within A&A system a game which introduce more planes and better reflect their use in the battlefield and in naval combat.
    My last attempt was here:
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33226.msg1262224#msg1262224

    Here is the principles I tried to put in this House Rule on TcBs and Fgs.
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33229.msg1262286#msg1262286

    Contrary to my last attempts I think I really achieve something better, which is somewhat balance considering OOB system rules and units combat values.
    It is intended to be played with the starting board.

    Fighter
    Attack 1 First Strike
    Defense 2
    Move 4
    Cost 7

    1 hit
    all hit destroy an enemy plane first, if there is any.
    Give +1A to any TcB paired with.

    Tactical Bomber
    Attack 3-4
    Defense 3
    Move 4
    Cost 10

    1 hit
    Gain +1A when paired 1:1 with any Fighter or Tank.
    Can do a Tactical bombing raid vs Air Base and Naval Base.
    EDIT: On a “1” rolled, hit an enemy’s plane.

    Strategical Bomber
    Attack 4
    Defense 1
    Move 6
    Cost 12
    SBR as OOB: Attack @1.
    EDIT: On a “1” rolled, hit an enemy’s plane.

    Now,
    Fleet Carrier is
    Attack 0
    Defense 2
    Move 2
    Cost 16
    2 hits
    can now hold up to 3 planes (in which only 1 TcB), or 2 TcBs: 3 Fgs / or 2 Fgs and 1 TcB / or 2 TcBs.


    Basically, the Fighter unit has been cut in half, and in a battlecalculator, on the same IPCs basis, it have almost the same odds:
    on defense (7D4 vs 10D2 48% vs 50%) and slightly less on offence (10A1 FS vs 7A3 (40% vs 60%). But the First Strike and the capacity to hit costlier target can balanced it.

    So in average, in combat these units have the same combat value for their own cost:
    1 Fg A3 /D4 /M4 / C10 = Fgs A1_First Strike_ /D2 /M4 /C7

    On the same IPC basis, on a face-to-face:
    7 Fgs A21D28C70 = 10 Fgs A10FS D20C70  
    23% vs 76% / 10fgs vs 7 Fgs = 23% vs 78%

    7 Fgs A21D28C70 vs 7Fgs A21D28C70 = 20% vs 76%
    10 Fgs A10FS D20C70 vs 10 Fgs A10FS D20C70 = 34% vs 66%

    But the new Fighter unit is mainly targeting aircrafts in every round of battle.
    As a single unit, it becomes less effective against ground or naval units as it should be.

    And no need for a special dogfight round since it is integrated in the Fg unit capacity to hit planes first. (More integrated to A&A mechanics)

    But in naval combat, 2 Fgs unit are as effective as the OOB Fg A3D4C10.

    That’s why there is a little more room on the carrier, 1 place of old OOB Fg can let’s place for up to 2 new Fgs.
    That’s way, naval combat and Carrier group will not be impaired by a cheaper and weaker Fg unit in itself.
    The combat will not change radically.
    This full carrier with new Fgs: 2 Fgs A2D4C14 + 1 TcB A3-4D3C10 = A6D7C24, 3 hits
    will be similar in strength as a
    OOB full carrier: 1 Fg+ 1 TcB = A7D7C21, 2 hits.


  • 2017 '16

    About the A1 First Strike, this means that this Fg unit can roll at the same time as AAA.

    So even if it is taken as a casualty, the “1” rolled by the Fg must be allocated to an appropriate target.
    If there is any defending plane, then it is shooted down.

    This First Strike is for every round and can be apply to any ground unit.

    I rationalize it as you cannot not know for sure when and where Fg will strike and launch an offensive.

    It is mainly inspired by the escort and interception SBR rules of 1942.2.

    EDIT: I no more think it is a balance idea. See post below.  AAA should still fire first over incoming Fgs. Once the casualties are removed, the attacking Fgs roll @1 First Strike against other aircrafts.


  • 2017 '16

    It is easy to add this OPTION A to better depict Fg and TcB and give them a specific role:

    Fg A1First StrikeD2M4C7, 1 hit, all hit destroy an enemy plane first, if there is any.
    Give +1A/D to any TcB paired with.

    TcB A3-4D3-4M4C10, 1 hit, gain +1 A/D when paired 1:1 with any Fg.
    EDIT: On a “1” rolled, hit an enemy’s plane.
    Can do a Tactical bombing raid vs AB and NB.

    Or OPTION B (the more historically embedded IMO), which have a deeper combined arms depiction of units and forbid ASW for Fg:

    Fg A1_FirstStrike_ D2M4C7 Can never hit subs. Always hit aircrafts first, if any.
    When teamed 1:1 to 1 TcB, give +1A/D to this unit.

    TcB A3-4D3-4M4C10 EDIT: On a “1” rolled, hit an enemy’s plane.
    (as OOB can hit subs when paired to DD),
    when teamed to 1 Tank, TcB gives +1A/D to this unit.
    TcB can still received +1A/D, if also paired to a Fg.
    Can do a Tactical bombing raid vs AB and NB.


    1 Fg doing escort in regular combat A1 first strike against 1 intercepting Fg D2

    Fg roll (A1 fs) / Fg D2 roll

    1*6= 6/36 no casualty vs 1 defending Fg killed: 16.7%

    5*2= 10/36 1 attacking Fg killed : 27.8%

    5*4= 20/36 both survived: 55.5%

    Results :
    55.5% * 0 IPC damage = 0 IPCs
    16.7% killing defending Fg *+6 IPC = + 1 IPC
    27.8% attacking Fg killed *-6 IPCs = - 1.67 IPCs
    Sum: 1 - 1.67 = -0.67 IPC damage/Fg per each combat round
    Negative .67 IPC for attacker and positive 0.67 IPC damage for defender.

    2 rounds of fire:
    6/36 * 36/36 = 216/1296 no casualty vs 1 defending Fg killed 1st rnd: 16.7%
    20/36 * 6/36 = 120/1296 no casualty vs 1 defending Fg killed 2nd rnd: 9.3%
    10/36 * 36/36 = 360/1296 1 attacking Fg killed 1st rnd: 27.8%
    20/36 *10/36 = 200/1296  1 attacking Fg killed 2nd rnd: 15.4%
    20/36 * 20/36 = 400/1296 both survived 30.8%

    Results for 2 rounds:
    30.8% * 0 IPC damage = 0 IPCs
    26% killing defending Fg *+6 IPC = + 1.56 IPC
    43.2% attacking Fg killed *-6 IPCs = - 2.592 IPCs
    Sum: 1.56 - 2.592 = -1.03 IPC damage/Fg for 2 combat rounds
    Negative 1 IPC for attacker and positive 1 IPC damage for defender.


    1 StB C11 & 1 Fg C6 A1 first strike doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2

    StB+Fg rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds  casualties

    1/36*36/36 = 36/1296      no casualty vs 2 Fgs : 2.78%

    10/3612/36 = 120/1296  1 Fg  vs 1 Fg : 9.26%
    10/36
    24/36 = 240/1296  no casualty vs 1 Fg : 18.53%

    25/364/36  = 100/1296  1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fg vs no casualty : 7.71%
    25/36
    16/36 = 400/1296  1 Fg vs no casualty : 30.86%

    25/36*16/36 = 400/1296  no casualty at all : 30.86%

    Results:

    Killing 2 Fgs:  2.78%+12 IPCs = + 0.56 IPC
    Killing 1 Fg:  27.78%
    +6 IPCs = + 1.67 IPCs
    Fg killed:      40.12%-6 IPCs =  - 2.41 IPCs
    StB & Fg killed: 7.71%
    -17 IPCs = - 1.31 IPCs

    Sum: 2.23 - 3.72 = - 1.49 IPCs damage/StB for the first combat round.
    Negative 1.5 IPC for attacker and positive 1.5 IPC damage for defender.


  • 2017 '16

    The actual point is for 1942.1 and 1942.2 because there is far less planes on the board at the beginning of the game, and adding or changing some Fgs units into TcBs units will not make a lot of them available everywhere if they are need to be paired somehow to get an Air bonus.

    In addition, this rule can generates an increasing attrition rate amongst planes vs OOB and there is far less IPCs compared to a G40 game.

    Keep the G40 HR as a basis, but have this slightly different TcB capacities:

    TcB A3-4D3-4C10 EDIT: On a “1” rolled, hit an enemy’s plane.
    1- When paired 1:1 with Fg, TcB get A4 or D4.
    2- Air supremacy: when no enemy’s plane, then all TcBs get A4 or D4.

    StB A4D1M6C12, as OOB.
    EDIT:On a “1” rolled, hit an enemy’s plane.


    Strategic Bombing Raid, escort and interception HR with TcBs

    During SBR as such, each TcB and StB get 1 A@1 regular against intercepting Fgs D@2.

    SBR escort and interception phase:
    Attacking Fgs roll A@1. (It is a preemptive strike, as OOB SBR rules) Remove casualties.
    Attacking TcB and StB roll A@1, defending Fgs roll D@2. Remove casualties.

    Proceed to SBR over IC.

    AAA fires against StBs but not TcBs (since they cannot TcBR an IC, unless your HRs something for it).
    Then roll damage as OOB Edit: as in G40 SBR: 1D6+2 for StB/ 1D6 for TcB.

    This way, I hope their won’t be too much casualties amongst planes and SBR will still be interesting even if a destroyed Fg (7 IPCs) worth less than OOB (10 IPCs).


    Optional Combined Arms Escorting rule for Fgs:

    Because this new Fg unit have much more chance to hit aircrafts units in any regular combat with more than 1 single round, any number of Fg unit can be allocated to SBR escort mission but,

    An attacking SBR and TcB groups need only 1 Fg unit as escort to get a combined arms bonus:
    This escorting Fg unit give all attacking units a preemptive strike @1.
    So all StBs and TcBs escorted by just 1 Fg now get this preemptive strike @1.

    The SBR phase become:
    Attacking Fg, TcBs and StBs roll A@1. Remove casualties.
    (It is a preemptive strike, same as in OOB 1942.2 SBR rules, except for TcB.)
    Defending Fgs roll D@2. Remove casualties.

    Here is something develop by Krieghund which is very near of the first above SBR escort rules:

    Here’s how I presented it:

    Escorts fire @ 1, and interceptor casualties are removed.
       Bombers fire @ 1 and interceptors fire @2, and bomber & interceptor casualties are removed.
       AA fires at bombers only.
       Surviving bombers attack facility.

    The idea was that the interceptors are looking to shoot down bombers, not escorts. This allows escorts to protect the bombers without acting as shields. Hopefully, this would make both roles, escort and interceptor, worthwhile.

    http://harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=4035&hilit=dogfight&start=344


  • 2017 '16

    There is some issues with any air-to-air combat even inside A&A mechanics, for instance:

    Dog fights would be cool, but very costly especially at full values (just think of how dog fights have cut down SBR and it uses lower values). As you said you could force air to air combat to knock out your opponents defending planes. The flying tiger was a good example, but would still get destroyed even if there was ground units involved because Japan could overwhelm it, in even a one round dog fight. China needs the final battle to go several rounds so the tiger can roll 2-3-4 times to take out some Japanese ground units.

    The battle for Moscow would be another major blow to the defender. Imagine a 1-2 punch with Japan or Italy forcing the Russian/allied fighters to a dual to weaken the overall defense of the Russian capital, then the Germans hammer the ground units. The ground game is balanced partially on having defending fighters rolling higher, and surviving till the end. If you allow the attacker to call those defending planes out into a dog fight, you have taken away what was a defensive advantage and given a huge advantage to the attacker IMO.

    With that said, I agree with you that it is silly for the fighters to be the last unit standing in a ground battle and you can’t call them out to some degree. We have tinkered with some stuff in the past. One of those house rules were to have the ground battles as normal, but if a fighter or tac rolled a 1 (attacker or def) that casualty had to be applied to an air unit. If no air on the other side, then to a tank and so on (higher ranking units). In sea battles it was similar (1’s rolled by ftr/tac applied to air units, then to capital ships ect…). That way some of your air hits went to something other then infantry or destroyers. I will say in sea battles sometimes you would rather take out a destroyer then air (scrambles or subs involved) so it could back fire if you use this at sea. We have also just allowed the person who rolled the “1” with an air unit to choose the opponents casualties (targeting). As an option you could allow attacking strat bmrs that roll a 1 to choose causalities as well. We have also at times given defending carriers AA defense at sea allowing them to roll as normal each round, but if they hit (2 or less) it goes to attacking air units.

    I’m not saying that I’m against some kind of air combat, but I think something would have to change in the game mechanics to incorporate a full fledged dog fight. I would also be interested in Larry’s view on this subject, and some of his own house rules or test runs involving air. I know that initially the tac bomber was given target capabilities (but that was scrapped).

    http://harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=18642&p=66073&hilit=air+retreat#p66073

    I think that one way to try having some kind of an air battle simulation inside the OOB game mechanics, would require to lower down the price of each units. As a first point,

    Considering this HR, I suggest this little change:
    OPTION A minus 1 IPC to keep depict Fg and TcB, give them a specific role, still being able to lose much more of them and keeping balance:

    Fg A1First StrikeD2M4C6, 1 hit, all hit destroy an enemy plane first, if there is any.
    Give +1A/D to any TcB paired with.

    TcB A3-4D3-4M4C9, 1 hit, gain +1 A/D when paired 1:1 with any Fg.
    Can do a Tactical bombing raid vs AB and NB.

    Or OPTION B minus 1 IPC (the more historically embedded IMO), which have a deeper combined arms depiction of units and forbid ASW for Fg:

    Fg A1_FirstStrike_ D2M4C6 Can never hit subs. Always hit aircrafts first, if any.
    When teamed 1:1 to 1 TcB, give +1A/D to this unit.

    TcB A3-4D3-4M4C9 EDIT: On a “1” rolled, hit an enemy’s plane.
    (as OOB can hit subs when paired to DD),
    when teamed to 1 Tank, TcB gives +1A/D to this unit.
    TcB can still received +1A/D, if also paired to a Fg.
    Can do a Tactical bombing raid vs AB and NB.

    This time, since StBs are more vulnerable and will be far less competitive vs Fg at 6 IPCs, it needs to get also a minus 1 IPC: StB A4D1M6C11 EDIT: On a “1” rolled, hit an enemy’s plane.

    The main point, is to keep a similar progression of combat value and cost as ground units:
    Inf A1D2C3 vs Fg A1_fs_D2C6 Fg are like Air Infantry,
    Tk A3D3C6 vs TcB A3-4D3-4C9 TcB are like Air Armor,
    ???            vs StB A4D1C11 StB should be like Air Heavy Tank.

    AAA gun should also be cheaper:
    A0D0M1ncmC3, each get a preemptive strike @1 up to 2 planes, whichever is lower.
    To provide a better defensive deterrent to support aircrafts which can be directly destroy.
    This also means that the attacking Fighter first strike would be played after the AAA guns rolls,
    to be sure that AAA provides a real protection for defending aircrafts.
    So, the combat phase will stay as OOB, AAA fire first and aircraft casualties are removed.
    Then, it would be attacking planes to get their preemptive strike against Air.
    After, all other aircrafts would follow with the ground units.

    For the special case of the chinese Fg, 1 OOB Fg must become 2 cheaper and weaker Fgs as above and AAA unit should be allowed as a buying option for China.

    Finally, a scramble air support and air retreat for defender should be allowed to create an incentive to have some frontier dogfights and defense without loosing all precious planes. So, it will not be as usual keeping the stacks of planes behind the line until the defender is back on the wall and must fight to the death. There will be other way to risk this units on defense to block somehow the attackers aircrafts wings. Probably, at least 1 round of combat would be necessary to allow air retreat at the beginning of the second round.

    Here is my last post on this subject:

    @Baron:

    @knp7765:

    Okay, I know this goes against the rules, but it seems to me that your planes stationed on an Airbase or even on an Aircraft Carrier should be able to scramble to defend adjacent territories. Now, planes on a regular territory (no Airbase) could not do this because they are considered “in the field” and would not be available for a quick response (lack of communications, etc.).

    Still, doesn’t this seem logical to you guys? That an occupation force would call for air cover from a carrier or air base if counter-attacked?

    Here is the HR I can probably use:
    An adjacent operational Air Base provides up to 3 planes (Fg or TcB).
    Each carrier can provide 1 plane in an adjacent land territory (Fg or TcB).
    An adjacent territory can provide 1 plane (Fg or TcB).

    In any situation, keep this limitation:
    it is up to 3 planes (Fg or TcB) max which can be scrambled into an adjacent territory under attack.

    In addition:
    any territory under attack can allow an aerial retreat for 1 single plane (Fg, TcB or StB) or up to 3 planes (Fg, TcB or StB) if there is an operational AB, the range is only 1 territory or SZ move.

    Does anyone see some specific drawback to this limited two ways: inward air-support/ outward air retreat?

    If the rule is kept within the same limit as the scramble rule in a SZ, players are already taking account of this special air reinforcement, it shouldn’t be difficult to watch it even if it is applied on land territories. What do you think?


  • 2017 '16

    I forgot to provide the rule of thumb for the starting placement on the board.

    On average in combat, 2 OOB Fgs A3D4M4C10 = 3 Fgs A1_first strike_ D2M4C6.

    On the G40, you simply put 1 Fg unit where there is only 2 OOB Fgs units.
    Make the sums of all Fgs units and keep this ratio of 2 OOB Fgs give 1 additional Fg.

    Then, you need to add 1 Fg sculpt where there is already 2 Fgs unit.
    We can take for granted that a full carrier with 1 TcB and 1 OOB Fg, will stay full with 1 TcB and 2 Fgs.
    For the rest, it will need mutual agreement on the placement of the remaining additional Fg units.

    For instance:
    Italy will get another Fg in Southern Italy.

    Germany gets 2 Fgs.
    Will get another Fg unit in Western Germany. And must put another one between: Slovakia, Norway or Belgium.

    Soviet Union will get an 1 additional Fg whether in Russia or Novgorod.

    UK gets 3 Fgs.
    Will get 1 Fg in UK and another 1 whether in Malta or Gibraltar.
    And also 1 additional in India.

    France will get an additional Fg whether in France or in UK.

    Anzac will get 1 Fg in New Zealand.

    China will get another 1 Fg in Szechwan.
    (According to the special conditions mention in the last post.)

    USA gets 3 Fgs.
    Will get 1 Fg in Hawaii and 1 Fg on board carrier in SZ 10.
    And can also put 1 Fg whether on the Eastern USA or in Philippines.

    Japan gets 5 Fgs.
    1 Fg on each carrier in (2) SZ 6 and (1) SZ 33.
    1 Fg in Manchuria and 1 Fg in Japan also.


  • 2017 '16

    Here is the cost calculation for the 1942.2 modified cost of units and SBR:
    Fg cost 6 IPCs and StB 11 IPCs with damage D6+2:

    OOB 1942.2: 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor
    5/6 StB survived * 3.5 IPCs = 2.9 IPCs
    1/6 StB killed *12 IPCs = -2 IPCs
    Sum: 2.9 - 2 = +.9 IPC damage/StB


    1942.2: 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor with increase damage and reduced StB cost
    5/6 StB survived * 5.5 IPCs = 4.583 IPCs
    1/6 StB killed *11 IPCs = -1.833 IPCs
    Sum: 4.583 - 1.833 = +2.75 IPCs damage/StB

    1942.2: 1 StB A1 first strike against 1 intercepting Fg D2

    StB roll (D6)/Fg roll / AAA roll

    161= 6/216 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg killed: 3%
    165= 30/216 no casualty vs 1 Fg killed: 14%

    526= 60/216 StB killed by Fg: 28%
    541= 20/216 StB killed by AAA: 9%
    545= 100/216 both survived: 46%

    Results with :
    60% * ((1+2) + (6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = 3.3 IPCs
    17% killing Fg *+6 IPC = + 1 IPC
    40% StB killed *-11 IPCs = - 4.4 IPCs
    Sum: 4.3 - 4.4 = -.1 IPC damage/StB


    G1940: 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor
    5/6 StB survived * 5.5 IPCs = 4.583 IPCs
    1/6 StB killed *11 IPCs = -1.833 IPCs

    Sum: 4.583 - 1.833 = +2.75 IPCs damage/StB

    G1940: 1 StB A1 against 1 Fg D1
    StB roll / Fg roll / AAA roll

    116= 6/216   1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg killed: 2.8%
    151= 5/216 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg killed: 2.3%
    155= 25/216 no casualty vs 1 Fg killed: 11.6%

    516= 30/216 StB killed by Fg: 13.9%
    551= 25/216 StB killed by AAA: 11.6%
    555= 125/216 both survived: 57.8%

    Results:
    57.8% * ((1+2)+ (6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = 3.179 IPCs
    16.7% killing Fg *+6 IPCs = + 1 IPC
    30.6% StB killed *-11 IPCs = - 3.366 IPCs

    Sum: 4.179 - 3.366 = + 0.813 IPC damage/StB

    For comparison with OOB G40:


    OOB G1940: 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor
    5/6 StB survived * 5.5 IPCs = 4.583 IPCs
    1/6 StB killed *12 IPCs = -2 IPCs

    Sum: 4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/StB

    OOB G1940: 1 StB A1 vs 1 Fg D1

    StB roll /Fg roll / AAA roll

    116= 6/216 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg killed: 2.8%
    151= 5/216 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg killed: 2.3%
    155= 25/216 no casualty vs 1 Fg killed: 11.6%

    516= 30/216 StB killed by Fg: 13.9%
    551= 25/216 StB killed by AAA: 11.6%
    555= 125/216 both survived: 57.8%

    Results:
    69.4% * ((1+2) +(6+2) IPCs)/2= + 5.5 IPCs) = 3.817 IPCs
    16.67% killing Fg *+10 IPCs = + 1.667 IPC
    30.6% StB killed *-12 IPCs = - 3.672 IPCs

    Sum: 5.484 - 3.672 = + 1.812 IPCs damage/StB


    OOB 1942.2: 1 StB & 1 Fg A1 first strike doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2

    StB+Fg rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds   casualties

    1/3636/361/6   = 36/7776      1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs : .5%
    1/3636/365/6 = 180/7776      no casualty vs 2 Fgs : 2.3%

    10/3612/361/6 = 120/7776    1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 1.5%
    10/3612/365/6 = 600/7776    1 Fg  vs 1 Fg : 7.7%
    10/3624/361/6=  240/7776    1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 3.1%
    10/3624/365/6 = 1200/7776   no casualty vs 1 Fg : 15.4%

    25/364/366/6   = 600/7776    1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fg vs no casualty : 7.7%
    25/3616/361/6 = 400/7776    1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 5.2%
    25/3616/365/6 = 2000/7776  1 Fg vs no casualty : 25.7%
    25/3616/361/6 = 400/7776    1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 5.2%
    25/3616/365/6 = 2000/7776   no casualty at all : 25.7%

    Results:
    Bombard on IC: 76.8% * ((1+6 IPCs)/2= +3.5 IPCs) = 2.688 IPCs
    Killing 2 Fgs: 2.8%+20 IPCs =   + 0.56 IPC
    Killing 1 Fg: 27.7% +10 IPCs =  + 2.77 IPCs
    Fg killed: 33.4%
    -10 IPCs =        - 3.34 IPCs
    StB killed: 8.8%
    -12 IPCs =       - 1.056 IPCs
    StB & Fg killed: 14.4%*-22 IPCs = - 3.168 IPCs

    Sum: 6.018 - 7.564 = - 1.546 IPCs damage/StB


    OOB G1940: 1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1

    StB+Fg rolls / interceptors Fgs roll / AAA roll = odds   casualties

    1/361/366/6   = 6/7776       1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fg vs 2 Fgs : .1%
    1/3610/361/6 = 10/7776      1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs : .1%
    1/3610/365/6 = 50/7776      1 Fg vs 2 Fgs : .6%
    1/3625/361/6 = 25/7776      1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs : .3%
    1/3625/365/6 =125/7776     no casualty vs 2 Fgs : 1.6%

    10/361/366/6 = 60/7776       1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg : .8%
    10/3610/361/6= 100/7776    1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 1.3%
    10/3610/365/6 = 500/7776   1 Fg vs 1 Fg : 6.4%
    10/3625/361/6 = 250/7776   1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 3.2%
    10/3625/365/6 = 1250/7776  no casualty  vs 1 Fg : 16.1%

    25/361/366/6   = 150/7776   1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fg vs no casualty : 1.9%
    25/3610/361/6 = 250/7776    1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 3.2%
    25/3610/365/6 = 1250/7776  1 Fg vs no casualty : 16.1%
    25/3625/361/6 = 625/7776    1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 8.1%
    25/3625/365/6 = 3125/7776   no casualty at all : 40.2%

    Results:
    Bombard on IC: 81% * ((1+2) +(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = 4.455 IPCs
    Killing 2 Fgs: 2.7%+20 IPCs =   + 0.54 IPC
    Killing 1 Fg: 27.8% +10 IPCs =  + 2.78 IPCs
    Fg killed: 23.1%
    -10 IPCs =        - 2.31 IPCs
    StB killed: 11.6%
    -12 IPCs =       - 1.392 IPCs
    StB & Fg killed: 7.4%*-22 IPCs = - 1.628 IPCs

    Sum: 7.775 - 5.33 = + 2.445 IPCs damage/StB


    So, compared to 1942.2 in a net results, each SBR round on 1:1 StB & Fg vs 2 Fgs interceptors, each SBR round in G40 is + 3.991 IPC / StB,  a better 4 IPCs of damage on average!


    1942.2: 1 StB & 1 Fg A1 first strike doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2

    Results if Fg cost 6 IPCs and StB 11 IPCs + damage 1D6+2:

    Bombard on IC: 76.8% * ((1+2)+(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = 4.224 IPCs
    Killing 2 Fgs: 2.8%+12 IPCs =   + 0.336 IPC
    Killing 1 Fg: 27.7% +6 IPCs =  + 1.662 IPCs
    Fg killed: 33.4%
    -6 IPCs =        - 2.004 IPCs
    StB killed: 8.8%
    -11 IPCs =       - 0.968 IPCs
    StB & Fg killed: 14.4%*-17 IPCs = - 2.448 IPCs

    Sum: 6.222 - 5.42 = + 0.802 IPCs damage/StB.

    It is not as powerful as G40 SBR (+ 2.445 IPCs/StB), but what it is showed here is that A1 First strike StB C11, doing D6+2 damage on IC, with 1 Fg C6 escorting against 2 Fg D2C6 is as near as possible of a statistical balance for both attacker and defender.

    So keeping this ratio (such as 2 StBs+ 2 Fgs against 4 Fgs, etc.), will give on both sides an even chance of doing damage to the enemy.


    OOB G1940: 1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1

    StB roll / interceptors Fgs roll / AAA roll = odds   casualties

    1/611/366/6=  66/1296    1 StB killed by Fgs vs 1 Fg : 5.09%
    1/625/361/6 = 25/1296   1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 1.93%
    1/625/365/6 = 125/1296  no casualty  vs 1 Fg : 9.65%

    5/611/366/6 = 330/1296    1 StB killed by Fgs vs no casualty : 25.46%
    5/625/361/6 = 125/1296    1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 9.65%
    5/625/365/6 = 625/1296   no casualty at all : 48.22%

    Results:
    Bombard on IC: 57.87% * ((1+2) +(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = 3.183 IPCs
    Killing 1 Fg: 16.67% +10 IPCs =  + 1.667 IPCs
    StB killed: 42.13%
    -12 IPCs =     - 5.056 IPCs

    Sum: 4.85 - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPCs damage/StB


    Fg cost 8 IPCs and StB 10 IPCs with damage D6+2:

    OOB 1942.2: 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor
    5/6 StB survived * 3.5 IPCs = 2.9 IPCs
    1/6 StB killed *12 IPCs = -2 IPCs
    Sum: 2.9 - 2 = +.9 IPC damage/StB


    1942.2 HR_SBR : 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor with increase damage and reduced StB cost
    5/6 StB survived * 5.5 IPCs = 4.583 IPCs
    1/6 StB killed *10 IPCs = -1.667 IPCs
    Sum: 4.583 - 1.667 = +2.916 IPCs damage/StB

    1942.2 HR: 1 StB A1 against 1 intercepting Fg D2, Cost 8 IPCs

    StB roll /Fg roll / AAA roll

    126= 12/216 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg killed: 5.56%
    141= 4/216 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg killed: 1.85%
    145= 20/216 no casualty vs 1 Fg killed: 9.26%

    526= 60/216 StB killed by Fg: 27.78%
    541= 20/216 StB killed by AAA: 9.26%
    545= 100/216 both survived: 46.30%

    Results:
    Bombing: 120/216= 55.56% * ((1+2) +(6+2) IPCs)/2= + 5.5 IPCs) = + 3.056 IPCs
    36/216= 16.67% killing Fg *+8 IPCs = + 1.334 IPC
    96/216= 44.44% StB killed *-10 IPCs = - 4.444 IPCs

    Sum: 4.39 - 4.444 = - 0.054 IPCs damage/StB

    1942.2_HR: 1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2

    StB+Fg rolls / interceptors Fgs roll / AAA roll = odds   casualties

    2/364/366/6   = 48/7776       1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fg vs 2 Fgs : .62%
    2/3616/361/6 = 32/7776      1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs : .41%
    2/3616/365/6 = 160/7776      1 Fg vs 2 Fgs : 2.06%
    2/3616/361/6 = 32/7776      1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs : .41%
    2/3616/365/6 = 160/7776     no casualty vs 2 Fgs : 2.06%

    14/364/366/6 = 336/7776       1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg : 4.32%
    14/3616/361/6= 224/7776    1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 2.88%
    14/3616/365/6 = 1120/7776   1 Fg vs 1 Fg : 14.4%
    14/3616/361/6 = 224/7776   1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 2.88%
    14/3616/365/6 = 1120/7776  no casualty  vs 1 Fg : 14.4%

    20/361/366/6   = 120/7776   1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fg vs no casualty : 1.54%
    20/3610/361/6 = 200/7776    1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 2.57%
    20/3610/365/6 = 1000/7776  1 Fg vs no casualty : 12.86%
    20/3625/361/6 = 500/7776    1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 6.43%
    20/3625/365/6 = 2500/7776   no casualty at all : 32.15%

    Results:
    Bombard on IC: 6060/7776= 77.93% * ((1+2) +(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 4.286 IPCs
    Killing 2 Fgs: 432/7776= 5.56%+16 IPCs =   + 0.889 IPC
    Killing 1 Fg: 3024/7776= 38.89% +8 IPCs =  + 3.111 IPCs
    Fg killed: 2280/7776= 29.32%
    -8 IPCs =       - 2.346 IPCs
    StB killed: 756/7776= 9.72%
    -10 IPCs =       - 0.972 IPCs
    StB & Fg killed: 960/7776= 12.35%*-18 IPCs = - 2.222 IPCs

    Sum: 8.286 - 5.540 = + 2.746 IPCs damage/StB


    1942.2_HR: 1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2, damage 1D6+2

    StB roll / interceptors Fgs roll / AAA roll = odds   casualties

    1/620/366/6=  120/1296    1 StB killed by Fgs vs 1 Fg : 5.09%
    1/616/361/6 = 16/1296   1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 1.93%
    1/616/365/6 = 80/1296  no casualty  vs 1 Fg : 9.65%

    5/620/366/6 = 600/1296    1 StB killed by Fgs vs no casualty : 25.46%
    5/616/361/6 = 80/1296    1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 9.65%
    5/616/365/6 = 400/1296   no casualty at all : 48.22%

    Results:
    Bombard on IC: 480/1296= 37.04% * ((1+2) +(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 2.037 IPCs
    Killing 1 Fg: 216/1296= 16.67% +8 IPCs =  + 1.334 IPCs
    StB killed: 816/1296= 62.96%
    -10 IPCs =     - 6.296 IPCs

    Sum: 3.371 - 6.296 = - 2.925 IPCs damage/StB


    1942.2 SBR HR: 2 StBs A1 regular cost 10 IPCs doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2 Cost 8 IPCs, damage: 1D6+2

    StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties

    1/364/3636/36 = 144/46656 2 StBs killed by Fg vs 2 Fgs: 0.309%
    1/3616/366/36 = 96/46656 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs : 0.206%
    1/3616/3630/36 = 480/46656 1 StB killed by Fg vs 2 Fgs : 1.029%
    1/3616/361/36 = 16/46656 2 StBs killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs : 0.034%
    1/3616/3610/36 = 160/46656 1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs : 0.343%
    1/3616/3625/36 = 400/46656 no casualty vs 2 Fgs : 0.857%

    10/364/3636/36 = 1440/46656 2 StBs killed by Fg vs 1 Fg: 3.086%
    10/3616/366/36 = 960/46656 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 2.058%
    10/3616/3630/36 = 4800/46656 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg : 10.288%
    10/3616/361/36= 160/46656 2 StBs killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 0.343%
    10/3616/3610/36= 1600/46656 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 3.429%
    10/3616/3625/36 = 4000/46656 no casualty vs 1 Fg : 8.573%

    25/364/3636/36 = 3600/46656 2 StBs killed by Fg vs no casualty : 7.716%
    25/3616/366/36 = 2400/46656 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 5.144%
    25/3616/3630/36 = 12000/46656 1 StBs killed by Fg vs no casualty : 25.72%
    25/3616/361/36 = 400/46656 2 StBs killed by AAA vs no casualty : 0.857%
    25/3616/3610/36 = 4000/46656 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 8.573%
    25/3616/3625/36 = 10000/46656 no casualty at all : 21.433%

    Results:
    2x Bombard on IC: 14400/46656= 30.864% * ((6+16) IPCs)/2= +11 IPCs) = + 3.395 IPCs
    1x Bombard on IC: 23040/46656= 49.383% * ((3+8) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = +2.716 IPCs
    Killing 2 Fgs: 1296/46656= 2.778%+16 IPCs = + 0.444 IPC
    Killing 1 Fg: 12960/46656= 27.778% +8 IPCs = + 2.222 IPCs
    2 StBs killed: 9216/46656= 19.753%
    -20 IPCs = - 3.951 IPCs
    1 StB killed: 23040/46656= 49.383%
    -10 IPCs = - 4.938 IPCs

    Sum: +8.777 - 8.889 = -0.112 IPCs damage/SBR run


    1942.2 SBR HR: 2 StBs A1 regular Cost 10 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2 Cost 8
    Damage 1D6+2
    StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties

    11/362/66/36 = 132/7776 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
    11/362/630/36 = 660/7776 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg
    11/364/61/36 = 44/7776 2 StBs killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
    11/364/610/36 = 440/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
    11/364/625/36 = 1100/7776 no casualty vs 1 Fg

    25/362/66/36 = 300/7776 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
    25/362/630/36 = 1500/7776 1 StBs killed by Fg vs no casualty
    25/364/61/36 = 100/7776 2 StBs killed by AAA vs no casualty
    25/364/610/36 = 1000/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
    25/364/625/36 = 2500/7776 no casualty at all

    Results:
    2x Bombard on IC: 3600/7776= 46.296% * ((6+16) IPCs)/2= +11 IPCs) = + 5.093 IPCs
    1x Bombard on IC: 3600/7776= 49.296% * ((3+8) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 2.546 IPCs
    Killing 1 Fg: 2332/7776= 29.999% +8 IPCs = + 2.400 IPCs
    2 StBs killed: 576/7776= 7.407%
    -20 IPCs = - 1.481 IPCs
    1 StB killed: 3600/7776= 46.296%*-10 IPCs = - 4.630 IPCs

    Sum: +10.039 - 6.111 = + 3.928 IPCs damage/SBR run

    1942.2_HR: 1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2

    StB+Fg rolls / interceptors Fgs roll / AAA roll = odds  casualties

    16/362/61/6 = 32/1296    1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
    16/362/65/6 = 160/1296  1 Fg vs 1 Fg
    16/364/61/6 = 64/1296  1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
    16/364/65/6 = 320/1296  no casualty  vs 1 Fg

    20/362/61/6 = 40/1296    1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
    20/362/65/6 = 200/1296  1 Fg vs no casualty
    20/364/61/6 = 80/1296    1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
    20/364/65/6 = 400/1296  no casualty at all

    Results:
    Bombard on IC: 1080/1296= 83.333% * ((1+2) +(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 4.583 IPCs
    Killing 1 Fg: 576/1296= 44.44% +8 IPCs =  +3.556 IPCs
    Fg killed: 432/1296= 33.333%
    -8 IPCs =    -2.667 IPCs
    StB killed: 216/1296= 1.667%-10 IPCs =    -1.667 IPCs
    StB & Fg killed: 72/1296= 5.556%
    -18 IPCs = -1.000 IPCs

    Sum: 8.139 - 5.334 = + 2.805 IPCs damage/StB


  • 2017 '16

    @Baron:

    I think that one way to try having some kind of an air battle simulation inside the OOB game mechanics, would require to lower down the price of each units. As a first point,

    Considering this HR, I suggest this little change:
    OPTION A minus 1 IPC to keep depict Fg and TcB, give them a specific role, still being able to lose much more of them and keeping balance:

    Fg A1First StrikeD2M4C6, 1 hit, all hit destroy an enemy plane first, if there is any.
    Give +1A/D to any TcB paired with.

    TcB A3-4D3-4M4C9, 1 hit, gain +1 A/D when paired 1:1 with any Fg.
    Can do a Tactical bombing raid vs AB and NB.

    Or OPTION B minus 1 IPC (the more historically embedded IMO), which have a deeper combined arms depiction of units and forbid ASW for Fg:

    Fg A1_FirstStrike_ D2M4C6 Can never hit subs. Always hit aircrafts first, if any.
    When teamed 1:1 to 1 TcB, give +1A/D to this unit.

    TcB A3-4D3-4M4C9 EDIT: On a “1” rolled, hit an enemy’s plane.
    (as OOB can hit subs when paired to DD),
    when teamed to 1 Tank, TcB gives +1A/D to this unit.
    TcB can still received +1A/D, if also paired to a Fg.
    Can do a Tactical bombing raid vs AB and NB.

    This time, since StBs are more vulnerable and will be far less competitive vs Fg at 6 IPCs, it needs to get also a minus 1 IPC: StB A4D1M6C11 EDIT: On a “1” rolled, hit an enemy’s plane.

    The main point, is to keep a similar progression of combat value and cost as ground units:
    Inf A1D2C3 vs Fg A1_fs_D2C6 Fg are like Air Infantry,
    Tk A3D3C6 vs TcB A3-4D3-4C9 TcB are like Air Armor,
    ???  vs StB A4D1C11 StB should be like Air Heavy Tank.

    AAA gun should also be cheaper:
    A0D0M1ncmC3, each get a preemptive strike @1 up to 2 planes, whichever is lower.
    To provide a better defensive deterrent to support aircrafts which can be directly destroy.

    Unfortunately, the more I think and make calculations about a way to get an interesting and balance air fight inside regular combat rounds, the more it probably imply an important cost reduction on many higher cost units.

    This will free some money to buy additional planes or just being able to replace the higher lost imply by the fact that Fighters unit can directly destroy other planes.

    Here is the complete modified list in which most units are reduced by 2 IPCs from OOB:

    AAArtillery A0D1NCM1C3, 1 hit, on first round get up to three preemptive @1 vs up to 3 planes whichever the lesser. In addition, after the first round, AAA unit gets a regular Def@1.

    Fighter A1 first strike D2M4C6, 1 hit, destroy air unit first and give +1A/D to TcB,
    up to 3 Fgs can be put on board a carrier, can never hit subs.

    Tac Bomber A3-4D3-4M4C9, 1 hit, can support Tank give +1 A/D to Armor, hit sub when paired to DD, up to 2 TcBs can be put on board a carrier, or 1 TcB and 2 Fgs.
    Can bombard NB or AB. (or IC in 1942.2 with TcBs.)

    Strat Bomber A4D1M6C10, 1 hit, can SBR IC/NB/AB, hit sub when paired to DD.

    Cruiser A3D3M2C10, 1 hit, can bombard @3.
    (Should provides some kind of preemptive AA shot @1 either by itself or by combined arms with carriers or even battleships.)

    Battleship A4D4M2C18, 2 hits, can bombard @4.
    (Should provides some kind of preemptive AA shot @1 either by combined arms with carriers.)

    Strategic Bomber and Cruiser stay in par (from 12 IPCs to 10 IPCs).
    Battleship is reduced to stay competitive (compared to Cruiser+Destroyer).
    And competitive against a full Carrier (1 TcB C9 + 2 Fgs C12 = A6D8C21 IPCs for 3 hits ) because full carriers will be a little bit more powerful than OOB (2 OOB Fgs A6D8C20, 2 hits about 50-60% inferior).

    I would allow 3 types of defensive manoeuvres:

    • aerial retreat for attacking planes (all can retreat while letting ground units pursuing battle),

    • a limited aerial withdrawal of 1 space after first combat round for defending planes up to 1 StB or 1 TcB or 2 Fgs and

    • a limited landing in a just conquered territory: 1 plane (either Fg or TcB).

    @Baron:

    @WILD:

    The rules have always been that you can’t land planes in a territory you just captured, or liberated (w/exception of AA1914 where planes really don’t def well, and there is no NCM phase), maybe it is an obsolete rule though. Maybe you should have some limited ability to land in a newly acquired territory. Maybe 1 air unit for a normal territory, or 3 air units if the newly acquired territory has an operational AB. Could possibly link how many air units can stay to the territories IPC value (value somewhat shows infrastructure). The thing is to not allow the attacked territory to be a ligament landing space when considering a planes range. You don’t want this to extend an air units range in this manner, and basically allow for kamikaze runs.

    I bolded the points which I found very good.
    Any Fighter would have at least 1 movement point to be able to land in the just conquered territory.

    1 Fg or 3 Fgs for a just conquered AB, seems an interesting limit.
    The AB should be operationnal (0,1 or 2 hits). A damaged one (3-6 hits) should allow only 1 Fg (as if there was no AB).
    Of course, it is possible to divided 1-2 hits, 3-4 hits, 5-6 hits also.

    All those modifiers will :

    • Free some IPCs to buy more easily destructible air units.

    • Keep a similar progression of combat value and cost as ground units:
      Inf A1D2C3 vs Fg A1_first strike_D2C6 Fg are like Air Infantry, basic unit
      Tk A3D3C6 vs TcB A3-4D3-4C9 TcB are like Air Armor, basic unit +3
      ?            vs StB A4D1C10 StB should be like Air Heavy Tank, basic unit +4.

    • Another curious thing on cost and value of air unit is that it can be calculated this way:
      basic A/D+move-1= cost. Fg 1+2+4-1= 6 IPCs / TcB 3+3+4-1= 9 IPCs / StB 4+1+6-1= 10 IPCs.

    • Antiaircraft guns will be more accessible and this gives another way to protect against planes, which will be more numerous.
      2 AAAs units at 3 IPCs targeting up to 6 planes @1, on a preemptive strike, for the price of 1 Fg at 6 IPCs targeting planes @2 every round will remain an affordable and competitive unit.

    • During regular combat, only Fighters will be able to directly hit other planes, this will limit the attrition rate of all planes (compared to any SBR rules in which bombers can hit Fgs on a “1”.)
      But real SBR mission will remains as OOB (or as specified in previous post).

    • But the aerial retreat could be a way to not loose all the attacking planes (especially defenseless bombers) because the ground battle was in favour of the attacker (and need to be pursued) while the defending fighters were too effective against attacking ground support planes. It will also let attacking player decides how far he wants to risk loosing costlier and defenseless against direct Fgs hit but more effective @3 or @4 ground attack bombers.

    This is what I will play-test sooner or later.

    Now the game will have 3 kinds of tactical situations more or less autonomous : the ground, the naval and the air.
    Providing bombing air support will bring bigger “@3” and “@4” in the ground or naval battle.

    And keeping cheaper fighters as escort or interceptor could be able to hastily take down these costly bombers if they are kept unprotected.

    In counter-part, bombers will still be needed in Naval combat to provide a better protection against subs. And the combined arms of Fgs with TcBs will warranty that both will be often bought together.


  • 2017 '16

    I found a post which say that SBR AAA kill ratio was 10% max:

    What Larry says have flaws, and contradict to to base mechanic.

    It should be like this:

    1. Attacking fighter escorts roll dice, each 1 is hit, and defender move casualties to casualty zone.

    2. Defending AA-gun roll dice, each 1 is hit, and then defending fighters roll dice, 2 or less is hit. Attacker choose his casualties.

    3. Surviving bombers roll SBR dice against factories.

    In real world, the attacking airfleet would first face the intercepting fighters, and then the escort fighters would do dog-fight. Later, the bombers would face AA-fire at the target. This AA-fire killed historically less than 10 % of the aircrafts. Using Larrys rule where AA-guns target bombers, you could be lucky and roll two 1’s and kill both attacking bombers, and get an unhistoric result of thousands bombers killed and no harm to the factories. Since its an abstract game, let the attacker pick a fighter as casualty to represent a % loss, and still have bombers survive to SBR.

    http://harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=1706&start=8
    He is talking about an older version of SBR (AA50 Anniversary).


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