Night Bombing SBR. All HRs, NAs, Techs, and custom sculpt ideas welcome

  • Customizer

    I’m just going to say something here. Excluding your math Baron. The whole point of this rule was to open up a way for SBR against ICs with a loose historical basis. The loose historical depiction of night bombing was to give the attacker a less risky SBR but the penalty was less risk=less reward.

    Given the basic concept, I think it is viable. I liked the idea of night fighters but thought it best to drop them. That’s my POV. An SBR that drops interceptors/escort could simulate this simply.

    Personally I like the thought of using a combination of D6 and D12 dice. When using a D12 system D6 dice aren’t necessary. I know this but I like D6 dice and will continue to use them. I also intend to use D12 dice for custom units and rules in the future and also have other ideas in the works.

    I encourage everyone to post as they like. Personally I like the idea of simply eliminating escorts and interceptors for night raids and reducing AA fire 1@D12. Damage totals are halved. That’s just what I like.

    Everyone else, carry on.

  • '17 '16

    @toblerone77:

    I’m just going to say something here. Excluding your math Baron. The whole point of this rule was to open up a way for SBR against ICs with a loose historical basis. The loose historical depiction of night bombing was to give the attacker a less risky SBR but the penalty was less risk=less reward.

    Given the basic concept, I think it is viable. I liked the idea of night fighters but thought it best to drop them. That’s my POV. An SBR that drops interceptors/escort could simulate this simply.
    Personally I like the thought of using a combination of D6 and D12 dice. When using a D12 system D6 dice aren’t necessary. I know this but I like D6 dice and will continue to use them. I also intend to use D12 dice for custom units and rules in the future and also have other ideas in the works.

    I encourage everyone to post as they like. Personally I like the idea of simply eliminating escorts and interceptors for night raids and reducing AA fire 1@D12. Damage totals are halved. That’s just what I like.

    Everyone else, carry on.

    About damage halved, you will use (1D6+2)/2 rounded up?
    D3+1 (avg 3) * 11/12 = 33 IPCs/12 =      2.750 IPCs/ StB   - 1 IPC = 1.75 IPCs/ run  68%

    So, TacB damage (if allowed) will be D6/2, since regular is D6 ?
    D3 (avg 2) * 11/12 = 22 IPCs/12 =          1.833 IPCs/ StB  - 1 IPC = 0.833 IPCs/ run  32%


    Ultimately, at a strength of 68% of OOB for StB Night-Bombing, this will be very attractive tactics I think.

    Much more than using regular AAA@1 and 1D6 damage (only 35.5% of OOB SBR).
    It will be almost two times more effective than using 1942.2 SBR as Night-bombing.

    And keeping a real half-casualties rate is much clearly depicting the protective effect of Night-bombing than 1942.2 SBR.

    Maybe it is still too much and can render OOB SBR obsolete unless attacker want to destroy some enemy’s Fighters.

    The base of comparison: was an average of 2.583 IPC/run is a rare situation when the defender have no Fg interceptor to give a better cover for his IC.

    A more usual and average situation is probably 1 StB doing SBR against 1 Fg interceptor.
    Or any 1 StB : 1 Fg ratio.
    (Because if either side can bring too much Fgs, there will be no SBR or no interception.
    For example, 1 StB:2 Fgs ratio begins to be  unappealing for the attacker:
    Damage: + 4.85  casualties: - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPCs damage/StB run)

    And it gives these results:
    Damage: + 5.487 IPCs/StB
    Casualties: - 3.672 =
    + 1.815 IPCs damage/StB run when 1:1

    1:1 intercepted SBR, 1.815 vs Night bombing (d3+1), avg 3 for 1.75 IPCs/StB run gives 96%, almost even!!!.

    1.815 vs (D6+2)/2, avg 2.75, for  1.521 IPCs/StB run, gives 84%

    1.815 vs (d6-1), avg 2.5, for 1.292 IPCs/StB run, gives 71%.

    1.815 vs (d3), avg 2, for 0.833 IPC/StB run, gives 46%.

    1.815 vs (1942.2 SBR AAA@1/6, D6), avg 3.5, for 0.917 IPC/StB run, gives 51%.

    I really think this other aspect should be considered since
    Night SBR has no interception and provides a way to always overcome any number of Fgs put to protect an IC.
    If the damage rate is too much, some players will find this frustrating being crippled by a fleet of Night StBs.

    In addition, historically speaking, Night Bombing was less dangerous but also clearly less accurate than day-time.
    (It seems that some  Day light raids have 5% vs 1% casualty for Night, 5 times less, but 1 Night bomber out of 3 was finding target in the worst situation, like foggy night…)

    So, what is the balance damage rate for an interesting but not too appealing either Night SBR?


    Here the calculations:

    OOB G1940: 1 StB A1 vs 1 Fg D1 doing interception

    StB roll /Fg roll / AAA roll

    116= 6/216 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg killed: 2.8%
    151= 5/216 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg killed: 2.3%
    155= 25/216 no casualty vs 1 Fg killed: 11.6%

    516= 30/216 StB killed by Fg: 13.9%
    551= 25/216 StB killed by AAA: 11.6%
    555= 125/216 both survived: 57.8%

    Results:
    69.4% * ((1+2) +(6+2) IPCs)/2= + 5.5 IPCs) = 3.817 IPCs
    16.7% killing Fg *+10 IPCs = + 1.67 IPC
    30.6% StB killed *-12 IPCs = - 3.672 IPCs

    Sum: 5.487 - 3.672 = + 1.815 IPCs damage/StB run


    OOB G1940: 1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1

    StB roll / interceptors Fgs roll / AAA roll = odds   casualties

    1/611/366/6=  66/1296    1 StB killed by Fgs vs 1 Fg : 5.09%
    1/625/361/6 = 25/1296   1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 1.93%
    1/625/365/6 = 125/1296  no casualty  vs 1 Fg : 9.65%

    5/611/366/6 = 330/1296    1 StB killed by Fgs vs no casualty : 25.46%
    5/625/361/6 = 125/1296    1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 9.65%
    5/625/365/6 = 625/1296   no casualty at all : 48.22%

    Results:
    Bombard on IC: 57.87% * ((1+2) +(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = 3.183 IPCs
    Killing 1 Fg: 16.67% *+10 IPCs =  + 1.667 IPCs

    StB killed: 42.13%*-12 IPCs =     - 5.056 IPCs

    Sum: 4.85 - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPCs damage/StB run

  • '17 '16

    @toblerone77:

    I’m just going to say something here. Excluding your math Baron. The whole point of this rule was to open up a way for SBR against ICs with a loose historical basis. The loose historical depiction of night bombing was to give the attacker a less risky SBR but the penalty was less risk=less reward.

    Personally I like the thought of using a combination of D6 and D12 dice. When using a D12 system D6 dice aren’t necessary. I know this but I like D6 dice and will continue to use them. I also intend to use D12 dice for custom units and rules in the future and also have other ideas in the works.

    I encourage everyone to post as they like. Personally I like the idea of simply eliminating escorts and interceptors for night raids and reducing AA fire 1@D12. Damage totals are halved.

    Since half-damage of OOB is D6+2/2= D3+1 which gives
    an average of 3 and a damage range of 2-4 IPCs on IC,
    there is another way of playing half-damage which is statistically the same but with different results for a single bombing damage:

    Rolling D6 but ignores all “6”.
    This give the same average of 3 (1+2+3+4+5= 15/5=3) but provides a wider range of damage to IC: 1 to 5 IPCs.

    So, you can choose one over the other according to which historical aspect of Night bombing you prefer:

    • First method, Night SBR quite ineffective on inflicting heavy damage (a real half max dmg: 8 vs 4).

    • Second method, Night SBR quite unable to reach their designated target, lesser than half minimum damage (3 vs 1) but sometimes can get lucky, getting a high dmg of 5 IPCs.

    Or maybe, third method, what you meant above was simply to roll for each StB 1D6+2, then making the sums and, after, dividing it by two rounding up or down. According to your preference.
    This will imply an average of 3+4+5+6+7+8= 33 / 6= 5.5 / 2=  2.75 IPCs per run.

    Rounding down damage: 3=1, 4=2, 5=2, 6=3, 7=3 , 8=4 sums: 15 / 6 = 2.5 IPCs per run.
    Rounding up damage: 3=2, 4=2, 5=3, 6=3, 7=4, 8=4 sums: 18/6 = 3 IPCs per run.


    So, considering these 3 methods,
    what will be yours Toblerone77?

    And if you choose the third one,
    will you**, in game, keep track of .5 IPC (2.75 avg)**, 84% of 1:1 StB vs Fg or 59% of StB vs AAA only,
    or rounding down (2.5 avg), 71% of 1:1 StB vs Fg or 50% of StB vs AAA only,
    or rounding up (3 avg), 96% of 1:1 StB vs Fg or 68% of StB vs AAA only?


    For easier view of both references at 100%:
    G40 1 StB vs 1 Fg, and AAA: D6+2, (avg 5.5), + 1.815 IPCs/StB run
    G40 1 StB vs AAA only: D6+2, (avg 5.5), + 2.583 IPCs/StB run.

  • '17 '16

    @toblerone77:

    I’m just going to say something here. Excluding your math Baron. The whole point of this rule was to open up a way for SBR against ICs with a loose historical basis. The loose historical depiction of night bombing was to give the attacker a less risky SBR but the penalty was less risk=less reward.

    Given the basic concept, I think it is viable. I liked the idea of night fighters but thought it best to drop them. That’s my POV. An SBR that drops interceptors/escort could simulate this simply.

    I encourage everyone to post as they like. Personally I like the idea of simply eliminating escorts and interceptors for night raids and reducing AA fire 1@D12. Damage totals are halved. That’s just what I like.

    Everyone else, carry on.

    Hi Toblerone77,
    I don’t know if you play 1942 second edition, but within the optional rule for SBR escort and interception it becomes viable to have such thing as StB playing a role as Night-fighter, because the odds are clearly different from G40 during the regular SBR with escort: all Fgs and StB A1 first strike, while Fg D2.

    All you have to do to implement a 1942.2 Night bombing & Night Fighter HR is this when playing with escort and interception optional rule:

    • Day SBR damage on IC becomes 1D6+2/StB, instead of just D6.

    • During 1942.2 Night SBR, the damage becomes D6-1/StB (or D6+2 halved rounding down, if you prefer).

    • In addition, all attacking StBs and defending StB Night-fighters roll a regular A/D@1, same as G40 SBR escort and interception rule.

    • The AAA fire @1 in both cases, Day or Night SBRs.

    These 2 things will make all the basics 1:1, StB vs Fg/StB Night Fg, balance.

    Day SBR:
    StB vs AAA, damage + 4.583 - casualty 2.0 = +2.583 IPC damage/StB
    StB vs Fg+AAA,  damage + 4.977 - casualty 4.777 = + 0.2 IPC damage/StB

    Night SBR:
    StB vs AAA, damage +2.083 - casualty 2.0 = +.083 IPC damage/StB
    StB vs StB NF+AAA, damage +3.736 - casualty 3.667 = + 0.069 IPCs damage/StB run


    So, Night SBR is better when there is more than 1 Fg defending an IC, and it is still an even match for both sides (near 0 IPC) to throw 1 StB against a StB NightF.

    But, if there is only 1 Fg on the IC, the Day SBR is still positively better (.2 vs .069).

    In addition, there is less StB and money in 1942.2 compared to G40, so there is lesser chance that StBs presence will forbids any Night SBR.

    To summarize the viable SBR tactics with this 1942.2 HR:

    1. No Fgs on IC, go for Day-SBR
    2. 2 or more Fgs on IC, go for Night-SBR unless there is more than 1 Night-Fg for 1 StB raider.
    3. Keeping a 1 Fg + (1 StB :1 Fg) advantage for Day bombing is better.
    4. Or staying within the 1 StB and 1 Fg vs 2 Fgs is the lower limit, it is still viable around 0.00 IPC/StB run.
      So, going 1:1 vs Day or Night is almost the same risks involved, but with less damage & casualty in Night SBR.

    What do you think of this?

    Now, Night Bombing can be viable in both games.

    Here is the calculation basis for this 1942.2 Night bombing with Night Fgs House Rule:

    OOB 1942.2: 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor
    5/6 StB survived * 3.5 IPCs = 2.9 IPCs
    1/6 StB killed *12 IPCs = -2 IPCs
    Sum: 2.9 - 2 = +.9 IPC damage/StB

    OOB 1942.2 SBR with D6 damage:
    1 StB A1 first strike against 1 intercepting Fg D2

    StB roll (D6)/Fg roll / AAA roll

    161= 6/216 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg killed: 2.78%
    165= 30/216 no casualty vs 1 Fg killed: 13.89%

    526= 60/216 StB killed by Fg: 27.78%
    541= 20/216 StB killed by AAA: 9.25%
    545= 100/216 both survived: 46.3%

    Results with :
    60.19% * ((1+6) IPCs)/2= +3.5 IPCs) = 2.107 IPCs
    16.67% killing Fg *+10 IPC = + 1.667 IPC
    39.81% StB killed *-12 IPCs = - 4.777 IPCs

    Sum: 3.774 - 4.777 = - 1.0 IPC damage/StB


    1942.2 HR damage D6+2 : 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor
    5/6 StB survived * 5.5 IPCs = 4.583 IPCs
    1/6 StB killed *12 IPCs = -2 IPCs
    Sum: 4.583 - 2.0 = +2.583 IPC damage/StB

    1942.2 SBR HR with D6+2 damage:
    1 StB A1 first strike against 1 intercepting Fg D2

    StB roll (D6)/Fg roll / AAA roll

    161= 6/216 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg killed: 2.78%
    165= 30/216 no casualty vs 1 Fg killed: 13.89%

    526= 60/216 StB killed by Fg: 27.78%
    541= 20/216 StB killed by AAA: 9.25%
    545= 100/216 both survived: 46.3%

    Results with :
    60.19% * ((1+2) + (6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = 3.31 IPCs
    16.67% killing Fg *+10 IPC = + 1.667 IPC
    39.81% StB killed *-12 IPCs = - 4.777 IPCs
    Sum: 4.977 - 4.777 = + 0.2 IPC damage/StB


    HR for 1942 with StB as Nightfighter interceptor all A1/D1 as in G40 interception rule, damage at D6-1:

    1 StB A1 vs 1 StB D1 doing interception

    StB roll /Fg roll / AAA roll

    116= 6/216 1 StB killed by StB NF vs 1 StB NF killed: 2.78%
    151= 5/216 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 StB NF killed: 2.31%
    155= 25/216 no casualty vs 1 StB NF killed: 11.57%

    516= 30/216 StB killed by StB NF: 13.89%
    551= 25/216 StB killed by AAA: 11.57%
    555= 125/216 both survived: 57.87%

    Results:
    69.44% * ((0+5) IPCs)/2= + 2.5 IPCs) = 1.736 IPCs
    16.67% killing StBNFg *+12 IPCs = + 2.00 IPC
    30.55% StB killed *-12 IPCs = - 3.667 IPCs

    Sum: 3.736 - 3.667 = + 0.069 IPCs damage/StB run

    1942.2 HR damage D6-1: 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor
    5/6 StB survived * 2.5 IPCs = 2.083 IPCs
    1/6 StB killed *12 IPCs = -2 IPCs
    Sum: +2.083 - 2 = +.083 IPC damage/StB


    1942.2, damage D6+2: 1 StB & 1 Fg A1 first strike doing Day-SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2

    StB+Fg rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds   casualties

    1/3636/361/6   = 36/7776      1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs : .5%
    1/3636/365/6 = 180/7776      no casualty vs 2 Fgs : 2.3%

    10/3612/361/6 = 120/7776    1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 1.5%
    10/3612/365/6 = 600/7776    1 Fg  vs 1 Fg : 7.7%
    10/3624/361/6=  240/7776    1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 3.1%
    10/3624/365/6 = 1200/7776   no casualty vs 1 Fg : 15.4%

    25/364/366/6   = 600/7776    1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fg vs no casualty : 7.7%
    25/3616/361/6 = 400/7776    1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 5.2%
    25/3616/365/6 = 2000/7776  1 Fg vs no casualty : 25.7%
    25/3616/361/6 = 400/7776    1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 5.2%
    25/3616/365/6 = 2000/7776   no casualty at all : 25.7%

    Results:
    Bombard on IC: 76.8% * ((1+2)+(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = 4.224 IPCs
    Killing 2 Fgs: 2.8%+20 IPCs =   + 0.56 IPC
    Killing 1 Fg: 27.7% +10 IPCs =  + 2.77 IPCs
    Fg killed: 33.4%
    -10 IPCs =        - 3.34 IPCs
    StB killed: 8.8%
    -12 IPCs =       - 1.056 IPCs
    StB & Fg killed: 14.4%*-22 IPCs = - 3.168 IPCs

    Sum: 7.554 - 7.564 = - 0.01 IPCs damage/StB

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