To Pearl or not to Pearl, that is the question . . .


  • “I would not say that you the US has to buy an AC and 2 subs… Why? The Jap fleet is not directly threatning the US. So just build some trannies at the atlantic coast and you are good. If the Japanese want to go after the US they will just throw the game away, because everything they throw at the US means they cannot throw at the Russians… Rusland is the main target for the Axis not the UK or the US period. So anything wasted on those two will weaken the Russian front.”

    If the U.S. don’t engage the Japanese in teh Pacific they will doiminate Russia.  If the U.S. doesn’t restore it’s fleet the Japanese will move an A.C. plus to the west coast and the U.S. can no longer place ships.  Auto loss.  Seriously, if you don’t engage the Japanese in teh Pacific they don’t have to build but like 2-3 trannies over 2-3 turns and just ferry their way to a 20 point IP swing.  This result in an auto loss for the Allies.  How is this coming out of left field here.  If the Japanese put 6-10 infantry per turn into the mainland they will have like a ridiculous income.  If you don’t force the Japanese to buy ships, the Allies autolose.  What is a carrier, a sub, and a battleship going to do against the Russian mainland?  My point is this.  If the U.S. doesn’t force the Japanese to build more ships than they start with (barring a few transports) theyu will throw everything they have at the mainland and the Russia and will win.


  • @limitedwhole:

    My point is this. If the U.S. doesn’t force the Japanese to build more ships than they start with (barring a few transports) theyu will throw everything they have at the mainland and the Russia and will win.

    The Japanese player can pretty much throw everything at Russia anyway… If you buy ships with the US against the Japanese you are wasting money and time. While the main objective is Germany for the US. You can directly drop inf in WE or Norway(to support Rus)  or when optimal played in Karelia (moving from east-Can to Karelia) While the Japanese island is at least 2 turns away… Even if the Japanese player is dumb enough to go after the US you will gain time for Russia… And because Japan is 2 turns away from the US you will see them comming and you can buy significant inf to defend WUS. But most of the time the Japanese player can’t even come in US waters because the US has 2 figs, 1 bomb, 1 bb and 1 tran. They can take out most of the Japanese fleet with that… The US has also a larger income base than the Japanese to replace losses… So buying ships in the pacific is just a waste of money and time for the US.


  • “The Japanese player can pretty much throw everything at Russia anyway… If you buy ships with the US against the Japanese you are wasting money and time. While the main objective is Germany for the US. You can directly drop inf in WE or Norway(to support Rus)  or when optimal played in Karelia (moving from east-Can to Karelia) While the Japanese island is at least 2 turns away… Even if the Japanese player is dumb enough to go after the US you will gain time for Russia… And because Japan is 2 turns away from the US you will see them comming and you can buy significant inf to defend WUS. But most of the time the Japanese player can’t even come in US waters because the US has 2 figs, 1 bomb, 1 bb and 1 tran. They can take out most of the Japanese fleet with that… The US has also a larger income base than the Japanese to replace losses… So buying ships in the pacific is just a waste of money and time for the US.”

    I’m sorry, I don’t see how the Axis don’t win every game you play.  Russia stands no chance against Japan unless Japan is forced to buy ships.  That simple.  Japan can send 4 infantry on the first turn, 6 infantry on the second turn, 6 infantry and one tank on the third turn.  Dropping INF into Norway.  Is this a joke?  Did I say that the Japanese should invade the U.S. No.  The U.S. has a larger income base for  the first three turns.  After tha no.  Also the U.S. is not very well placed to help in the Asian war against Russia is it?  IF the U.S. doesn’t restore it’s fleet after pearl, Japan sinks its remaining ships.  If the U.S. trades it’s airforce for Japans fleet off it’s coats great.  Now they have to replace their air force.  The game isn’t just about I.P.'s its about tempo.


  • The US player helps the Russian player from the other side… Yes dropping in Norway is not a joke, because the inf will be in Karelia next turn and after that they will be pretty soon in Russia itself and in Novobrisk… In turn 3 I will be dropping 8 inf a turn to help the Russian player to defend either Karelia or move them to Russia.

    The US has more money to replace their airforce than the Japs have to replace their Ships. (You need your ships even after J3-4 to conquer Australia and NZ or to go to Africa… Sure you need tempo as an Axis player, but not oo much, because you will overstretch your supply lines (infantry wise) and you will wear your forces down…


  • “The US player helps the Russian player from the other side… Yes dropping in Norway is not a joke, because the inf will be in Karelia next turn and after that they will be pretty soon in Russia itself and in Novobrisk… In turn 3 I will be dropping 8 inf a turn to help the Russian player to defend either Karelia or move them to Russia.”

    This is hilarious.  Africa?  I’m guessing you have an A.C. to guard those transports and fighters that you restored after throwing them on a suicide mission against the Japanese fleet too?

    “The US has more money to replace their airforce than the Japs have to replace their Ships. (You need your ships even after J3-4 to conquer Australia and NZ or to go to Africa… Sure you need tempo as an Axis player, but not oo much, because you will overstretch your supply lines (infantry wise) and you will wear your forces down…”

    Umm… the Japaness in Africa…?  Why would they do that?  You obvisouly aren’t shipping troops to Africa which means the Germans can dominate it all by themselves.  Who gives a rat’s arse about Russia when you can just pick up 10-11 I.P. unhindered in Africa.  It takes how many turns for the Japaness to get to Africa?

    Australia is out of the way and worth 2 I.P.  Asia is worth a whole bunch and right on your doorstep.


  • I will stop arguing with you now, because you just don’t want to see the point that is so clear…

    My last explanation to you…
    First of all the UK buys the AC to protect the trannies. I won’t sack my US airforce to the Japanese Navy unless they start sending trannies to try to take WUS.

    After turn 3 you have most of Asia already so you just let your fleet sit at Japan and don’t do anything with it?
    After turn 3 Germany start to lose Africa back to the Allies and you might want to help them…

    Germany cares about Russia, because Russia is pretty much the bottleneck in the game… The game evolves around Russia… Can the Axis conquer Moskow before the Allies enter Berlin… So yes they do care about Russia, because the Russian pressure the Germans as well at EEU…


  • I will stop arguing with you because you have obviously never played an Axis player who has any sense.  You spend 16 extra I.P. to ship 2 extra inf on turn 3 and then pigeonhole your strategy by requiring a full investment of 30 IP on inf ot make use of those transports.  Germany obviously isn’t losing Africa to the allies if your shipping 8 INF to Norway.  How could they be?


  • I spend 8 ipc’s extra… (2 trannies and 3 inf to your 1 tran and 5 inf…) Uk can send troops to Africa as wel, or you just send 6 inf to Norway and 2 to Africa, whatever you want, but you can’t see that, because you are rather shrotsighted…


  • @Bashir:

    I spend 8 ipc’s extra… (2 trannies and 3 inf to your 1 tran and 5 inf…) Uk can send troops to Africa as wel, or you just send 6 inf to Norway and 2 to Africa, whatever you want, but you can’t see that, because you are rather shrotsighted…

    UK has no navy by turn 2.  If it wants to build a new one, it has to save up and the U.S. has to send fighter support.  We’re now talking turn 3-4 and they don’t get to build any bombers.  Germany bridges troops every turn from southern Europe into Africa.  Good luck keeping up with that while shiping 6 INF to Norway.  The U.S. can only ship troops every other turn to Africa or offset half forces.  Germany “bridges” every turn.  If I was dumb and just threw everything I had at Russia despite you dropping stupid amounts of INF in Norway, yeah you would would beat me.  But I’m guessing I would just take all of Africa while Japan took all of Asia and rush towards an easy I.P. victory.  The way you look at it, Germany throws everything at Russia.  The way I look at it, Germany makes reasonable incursions into Africa and Russia forcing the Allies to divide their forces while Germany has relative flexibility do to maximal placement.

    1. You don’t reinforce Africa with everything you have because, you are reinfocing Norway=>Germany will take Africa.
    2. You don’t force the Japanese to buy ships by ignoring the Pacific war=>Japan will take Asia.
      =>I.P. victory

    Germany doesn’t need Russia.  The game doesn’t hinge on Russia.  The game hinges on I.P. swing whether that be in Africa, Asia, Russia, whatever.

    Japan gets +10 of Russia prod and Germany can hold border with Russia, possibly exchanging Ukraine back and forth.
    That leaves Russia with 14 I.P.

    Germany gets +9 of Britains prod with French West going back and forth with U.S.
    That leaves Britian with 21 I.P. without any bombing runs in them.

    Japan gets +4 of U.S. prod with no flip flop
    That leaves U.S. with 32

    They need 4 more to win.  Not that tough.  Great you turned Russia into a fortress.  Woopde doo. If you turn Russia into a fortress you just wasted a bunch of units, because I just will ignore yor fortress and soak up I.P. you failed to protect.
    Allies 67 I.P
    Axis 80 I.P., better position, better flexibility.


  • Limitedwhole:

    Please, please, please go read the rest of the forums on this site. Do not insult our intelligence by assuming you hold the answers that no one else here does. While we’d all love to debate you on points that we have gone over three thousand times, I think it makes more sense for you to immerse yourself in previous threads where people have the same opinion that you do.


  • @Bashir:

    So all your options look inferior to the attack on Pearl IMO. The JFK strat is also inferior to the atlantic strat. So the Pearl Harbor attack is mandatory!

    I would not say that you the US has to buy an AC and 2 subs… Why? The Jap fleet is not directly threatning the US. So just build some trannies at the atlantic coast and you are good. If the Japanese want to go after the US they will just throw the game away, because everything they throw at the US means they cannot throw at the Russians… Rusland is the main target for the Axis not the UK or the US period. So anything wasted on those two will weaken the Russian front.

    You are contradicting yourself Bashir. The pearl harbor attack is an attack against the US, which you say is mandatory. In the next paragraph you state that wasting resources on the US will weaken the russian front. So which is it?  :evil:


  • With going after the US I ment going all the way to WUS like Limited stated. He would go to the WUS zs. Just go Pearl and your fleet is still in striking range for a J2 attack on SFE. That is what I ment 😛


  • The only time the Japs should not go to Pearl is when they can’t b/c they’ve been hit by a KwangBang.  Otherwise Japan should always go to Pearl.  Yes its true that Pearl is somewhat overrated b/c the units aren’t that valuable to the Americans and the potential loss for the Japs is great, but a good player will kill you with that US ftr.  I’ve seen some US players build a bmb on US 1 7inf bmb so as to pressure Germany’s rear a bit more imagine the pressure they can put on Weuro with 10inf 3ftrs 2bmbs and a bb.  Normally I think 8inf are necessary in Weuro to keep the Allies from attacking but with 1 and even 2 extra air you could need 4+ at which point it becomes questionable as to whether its even worth it to do so as those 12-14 inf could be used in the east to lurch.

    Additionally, as with the Brit air strat of another thread you should fear an American air strat as much.  If given 3ftrs at the start I would be far more tempted to use a limited US shuck say about 6-8inf so as to purchase 1-2 air a turn.  If the US builds up an air arsenal of 8-10 units(they start with 4) then an attack on a well defended Jap navy becomes a likelyhood and not something you want to see.  The difference between 2 and 3ftrs on A1 is great and therefore necessitates a J1 attack on Pearl but for a KwangBang.  This is b/c when Kwangbanged it is unlikely that Japan can can get both US ftrs in China and Pearl without significant risk and loss.  Even with the brits landing their ftr in China there is enough risk to Japan attacking it with 2inf 2ftrs bmb to not clear it and give the Allies 1-2 ftrs or lose a few more themselves.  If the Allies can trade 1 of their ftrs(the US ftr is assumed to be dead) for 2 more Jap ftrs(Manch was lost) then the Allies will take that.  Japan with only 3 air is not at all fearsome.

    Germany doesn’t need Russia.  The game doesn’t hinge on Russia.  The game hinges on I.P. swing whether that be in Africa, Asia, Russia, whatever.

    Totally disagree the game hinges on Russia not Africa.  Africa is always going to be a secondary front and therefore holding it will only benefit whomever is strongest in the center of the board.  If the Allies have garrisoned Karelia/Russia/Novo well so that the Axis can’t crack it then going to Africa will be a waste for Japan as they will only make themselves weaker where they need strength the most.  It may take the Allies some time but time they’ve got, and they will retake Africa and push Japan in Asia at which point it should be gameover for the Axis.


  • KwangBang

    LOL that just sounds funny  :lol:


  • Something that has not been mentioned in this thread…

    Pearl Ultra-light.

    Hit Pearl with JUST enough force to definitely kill 2, but NOT 3 units on the first turn.  Take the defensive rolls, then RETREAT.

    I have done this twice to Trihero in Revised games, and it works out well.  Your remaining fleet is positioned to block the US from going all the way to Japan, is out of range of most of the US land based air force (since the US likely took their loses as sub and AC), and you still destroyed much of the US fleet (which seems to be the goal that most folks advocate for a Pearl attack in J1).

    In Classic, it almost works even better, since the “retreated” Japan fleet, plus additional units moved in to defend it in the retreat sea zone, are then within striking distance of almost anything they want to hit: Austrlia, New Zeland, Alaska, Western US, Mexico, SFE, Alaska, Midway, Hawaii.

    And any new navy/consolidation by the US in the Pacific is within striking distance of that same Japan fleet.


  • What happens if instead of taking the sub as a loss, the US player retreats the sub instead?  I’ll need to check the rules as I don’t know off the top of my head, but can you then retreat the Japanese fleet to the same place the US sub went?  Whether or not you can, now you haven’t blocked the sub from possibly attacking your transports … which might be a problem.

    I’d also be a bit afraid to go too light because if you get bad dice (and the lighter you go the more likely this is to happen), then you might have other problems.


  • Yes, the US sacrificing the AF and Carrier to withdraw the sub to Midway, or even teh SZ west of Midway, could be an issue… assuming Japan left nothing but trannies there…

    Something I had not thought of (since I was translating from Revised and forgot about Classic defending sub retreats).  Thank you for pointing that out.


  • I retreat my sub when I can, because it means you can go after the trannies who are open in the Japanese SZ, or you can save it for a counter attack.


  • LOL that just sounds funny

    Yes I know it sounds like a Porno term.

    In Classic, it almost works even better, since the “retreated” Japan fleet, plus additional units moved in to defend it in the retreat sea zone, are then within striking distance of almost anything they want to hit: Austrlia, New Zeland, Alaska, Western US, Mexico, SFE, Alaska, Midway, Hawaii.

    And any new navy/consolidation by the US in the Pacific is within striking distance of that same Japan fleet.

    Yes but I think you overestimate the importance of Austrailia/NZ/Hawaii and the Eastern Pacific Rim to Japan, and to that extent I think you would be under able to respond given slightly abherrant dice rolls. Further you seem set upon the idea that the US should build a fleet and even with good dice by Japan the US can take the fighter and get it in Europe and have a huge advantage.  If over the span of say 8 turns the US builds even 1 additional ftr and bmb then they can attack Germany in WEuro and Berlin with 10-12inf 4ftrs 2bmb bb.  This gives them ~6hits round 1 whereas normally they’re looking only at 3-4.  IMO this is a huge difference and borders very close to inviting a mid round attack on a Fortress Europe stronghold by the Allies unless you over garrison these terriorites which in turn will mean less Russian committment in the West which will allow it to hold off or even push back the Japanese in Asia.  Ultimately you end up with a very strong Russian Asian presence which prevents you from ever going to Africa which in turn deprives you of the IPCs needed to win.

    The second possibility is even worse and this is that Japan gets bad or good dice.  Should Japan roll bad then obviously a counterattack is possible or the loss negates the effectiveness of this move.  Should Japan get “good” dice say take minimal loss while getting two hits, the US can and it should be assumed kill off its carrier ftr in order to retreat the sub so that they can trap the Jap Navy in Pearl to attack it.  The best defense against a Pearl counter is to be doing well enough in Africa so as to not give the US the ability to risk its units and thus the game in such a risky counter attack.  In other words anytime I’ve seen Pearl get counter attacked by the Americans it was always b/c of either two things.  First the Japs rolled bad or two b/c the Germans got mauled in Egypt.  Either way however the solution is to not fear the US at Pearl but to make them fear Germany in Europe.

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