?? Best way to take France ??

@Gtsg:
I hear you also tried a naval approach. How exactly did the transports work?

yes, I normally buy one transport and sub round one and round 2 it goes to russia ( my fleet stays in port, consolidate my 2 subs from seazone 5 to 10, and hit the canadian cruiser and tranny with the 2 subs in seazone 7). I have found that if you use the baltic as your sea and your german fleet as a shield and constantly adding ships (my golden standart is no more than 18 IPS’s) it is verry hard for the allies to break.  my preference goes to cruisers and subs however because subs can threaten seazone 8 and 9 from 10 and cruisers, if the allies are sloppy, can also hit seazone 8 :p . now transports russia first !!! and no more than 4 transports are needed so 1 every turn in the beginning is doable and of course luck to survive the mines :p. once your in the seazone leave the transports in the seazone and use your reinforcements from poland to enter the transports do not move them untill russia is finished so you can threaten finland, livonia, karelia and with decent teamwork from the other CP’s russia is fighting a 4 front war that is to much :p.

and once you are finished with russia use the transports to shuttle between berlin and holland while the fleet is used to protect your logistics :p  it seems to work against my friends :D ( mind you we are no pro’s but we are no noobs either so yeah we love this game and we only play OOB)

@Preussener:

@Chacmool (on land strategy):
If France puts their dozens units in Lorraine, they get easily crushed by a full German attack from Belgium and Munich (and the Ruhr, if you play with 2-move).
Therefore, they can take Picardy with minimal effort.

@

You cannot attack Lorraine from Ruhr if you play with the 2-movement-rule because its a hostile tt. You can only move 2-tt into friendly or contested zones.

Well as I pointed out earlier, with its initial forces Germany can not take Picardy with “minimal effort”. I would say its nearly impossible if France plays as I described it earlier. Maybe I need a battle report from you ;-). You didn`t answered what happens to Belgium. Do you risk that the big german snowball is getting out of supply letting the Brits land there R2/R3?

@Chacmool:

@Preussener:

@Chacmool (on land strategy):
If France puts their dozens units in Lorraine, they get easily crushed by a full German attack from Belgium and Munich (and the Ruhr, if you play with 2-move).
Therefore, they can take Picardy with minimal effort.

@

You cannot attack Lorraine from Ruhr if you play with the 2-movement-rule because its a hostile tt. You can only move 2-tt into friendly or contested zones.

Well as I pointed out earlier, with its initial forces Germany can not take Picardy with “minimal effort”. I would say its nearly impossible if France plays as I described it earlier. Maybe I need a battle report from you ;-). You didn`t answered what happens to Belgium. Do you risk that the big german snowball is getting out of supply letting the Brits land there R2/R3?

First, thanks for the clarification. I have not played 2-move that way before.
However, I have always won with this strategy with 1-move (i.e. Munich and former-Ruhr/Alsace forces are all that are needed for Lorraine).

As for Belgium, a good general rule is to move into a stronger territory in the next turn (like moving all forces to Lorraine). If France is foolish enough to subsequently move all its forces into Belgium, you can then move in and overwhelm them. If the French player is a little more wise, you simply allow another wave of troops to arrive for one turn (Kiel/Hanover forces if 1-move, Berlin if 2-move).
After that, you can easily storm into Picardy.

Remember, France is producing only ~25 IPC’s per turn, while Germany is sending about 40 IPC’s worth per turn (preferably with newly-bought fighters, for extra firepower).

Finally, there is really no chance of Britain landing in France when Germany is making 2-4 battleships per turn (and has destroyed much of the initial Royal and French navies). That is the purpose of going all/mostly naval builds.

Let’s look at the OOB Paris rush + naval buildup in a vacuum, with Low Luck for consistency.

G1 purchase: 2 BB, 1 inf, 2 art = 0 IPCs

Movement:
14 inf, 6 art->Belgium
9 inf, 4 art, 1 fig->Ruhr
11 inf, 3 art->Alsace
13 inf, 3 art->Hanover
2 sub->Canadian fleet
High Seas Fleet->Royal Navy
Prussia & Silesia hold/do stuff on the Eastern Front
G takes Nigeria, Fr. Eq. Afr., and P. E. Afr.

G1 combat:
Belgium falls, G loses 2 inf.
Canadian fleet destroyed, G loses 0-1 subs
Royal Navy destroyed, G loses 2 subs average

G collects 40 IPCs, end with 40.

F1 purchase: 8 inf = 0 IPCs
Movement:
18 inf, 6 art, 1 fig->Picardy (leaving 1 in Lorraine)
Bordeaux inf->Burgundy
Tunisia inf->activate Albania
Algeria inf->Sp. Morocco
Morocco inf->Portugal
Fr. W. Afr. inf->Gold Coast
2 BB, 1 CA-> Canada SZ

F1 combat: Canada SZ retaken

F collects 26 IPCs, end with 26.

The Western Front: G: 12 inf, 6 art/F: 24 inf, 8 art, 1 fig

G2 purchase: 2 BB, 1 inf, 2 fig = 1 IPC

Movement:
23 inf, 6 art, 1 fig->Lorraine
9 inf, 4 art->Belgium
13 inf, 3 art->Ruhr
1 inf, 2 art->Hanover
High Seas fleet pulls back to Kiel SZ to repair next turn

G2 combat:
Lorraine falls, say G lost nothing

From this point forth, we will assume G has 5 IPC in Africa
G collects 40 IPCs, end with 41.

F2 purchase: 8 inf = 2 IPCs
Movement:
31 inf, 8 art, 1 fig->Burgundy (leaving 1 in Picardy)
Portugal 1 inf, 1 art->Brest
1 Canadian TT, 1 Italian TT-> Portugal SZ
Canadian navy->Brest SZ

F collects 24 IPCs, end with 26.

The Western Front: G: 23 inf, 9 art, 1 fig/F: 32 inf, 8 art, 1 fig
High Seas Fleet: 5 BB, 2 CA

G3 purchase: 2 BB, 1 inf, 2 fig = 2 IPC

Movement:
32 inf, 13 art, 1 fig->Picardy
13 inf, 3 art->Belgium
1 inf, 2 art, 2 fig->Ruhr
1 inf->Hanover
High Seas->Scotland SZ (to avoid mines)

G3 combat:
Picardy falls, say G lost nothing

G collects 42 IPCs, end with 44.

F3 purchase: 8 inf = 2 IPCs
Movement:
31 inf, 9 art, 1 fig->Paris (leaving 1 inf in Burgundy)
Portugal 3 inf, Sp. Morocco inf->Bordeaux

F collects 22 IPCs, end with 24.

The Western Front: G: 32 inf, 13 art, 1 fig/F: 40 inf, 9 art, 1 fig
High Seas Fleet: 5 BB, 2 CA

G4 purchase 10 inf, 2 art, 1 fig=0 IPCs

Movement:
13 inf, 3 art, 2 fig->Picardy
1 inf, 2 art->Belgium
1 inf, 2 fig->Ruhr
1 inf->Hanover
G can take out French fleet by going through 2 mined SZ if they wish

G collects 40, end with 40.

F4 purchase: 8 inf = 0 IPCs

Movement: 4 Bordeaux inf->Paris

F collects 22 IPCs, end with 22

The Western Front: G 45 inf, 16 art, 3 fig/F: 52 inf, 9 art, 1 fig

Round 5 result: G: 15 inf, 16 art, 3 fig/F: 22 inf, 9 art->G: 16 inf, 18 art, 5 fig/F: 31 inf, 9 art (R6 beginning)
Round 6 result: G: 1 inf, 17 art, 1 fig/F: 9 inf, 9 art->G: 2 inf, 17 art, 1 fig/F: 14 inf 9 art (R7 beginning)
Round 7 result: G: 1 inf, 7 art, 1 fig/F: 1 inf, 9 art->G: 2 inf, 7 art, 1 fig/F: 6 inf, 9 art (R8 beginning)
Round 8 result: G: 1 inf, 1 art, 1 fig/F: 1 inf, 8 art->G: 11 inf, 3 art, 2 fig/F: 11 inf, 9 art (R9 beginning)
Round 9 result: G: 2 inf, 3 art, 1 fig/F: 4 inf, 9 art->G: 14 inf, 4 art, 1 fig/F: 16 inf, 9 art (R10 beginning)

So while you may be just starting to overwhelm Paris, it’s taken you 10 rounds to do so. And one of Italy or Russia should be doing very well since Austria can’t hold them both off and the Ottomans’ full attention is on the Brits (since all of Britain’s money is going to India because they can’t get across the channel), and Germany had to stop buying navy R4 to make the seige of Paris mildly successful, so America’s navy (that they should be focusing on with all the German ships built) should easily be big enough to push the High Seas Fleet back into port and allow Brits across now that the Ottomans are no longer a threat.

@Preussener:

Remember, France is producing only ~25 IPC’s per turn, while Germany is sending about 40 IPC’s worth per turn (preferably with newly-bought fighters, for extra firepower).

Finally, there is really no chance of Britain landing in France when Germany is making 2-4 battleships per turn (and has destroyed much of the initial Royal and French navies). That is the purpose of going all/mostly naval builds.

So is Germany sending about 40 IPCs at France or building 2 battleships/turn? 2 battleships leaves Germany with only a piddly 16 IPCs to send at France, which will barely outmatch them even when Paris is contested. But if they don’t build those ships, Britain can send troops across the channel to help France out.

@ColonelCarter:

Let’s look at the OOB Paris rush + naval buildup in a vacuum, with Low Luck for consistency.

Round 9 result: G: 2 inf, 3 art, 1 fig/F: 4 inf, 9 art->G: 14 inf, 4 art, 1 fig/F: 16 inf, 9 art (R10 beginning)

So while you may be just starting to overwhelm Paris, it’s taken you 10 rounds to do so. And one of Italy or Russia should be doing very well since Austria can’t hold them both off and the Ottomans’ full attention is on the Brits (since all of Britain’s money is going to India because they can’t get across the channel), and Germany had to stop buying navy R4 to make the seige of Paris mildly successful, so America’s navy (that they should be focusing on with all the German ships built) should easily be big enough to push the High Seas Fleet back into port and allow Brits across now that the Ottomans are no longer a threat.

First of all, the Deutsche army should have virtually all of their forces in one place by the time they reach Paris. With a higher attacker/defender ratio, the defender tends to lose all of its units in the first roll, and the attacker loses relatively few. It is extremely efficient. I march into Paris in 5 turns, and completely capture it the next turn. There are usually about 10 infantry, all 15 initial artillery, and a couple fighters left over in the end.

Once again, this strategy has been successfully tried numerous times.

@ColonelCarter:

So is Germany sending about 40 IPCs at France or building 2 battleships/turn? 2 battleships leaves Germany with only a piddly 16 IPCs to send at France, which will barely outmatch them even when Paris is contested. But if they don’t build those ships, Britain can send troops across the channel to help France out.

Clarification: The ~40 IPC’s worth of units that Germany sends is each of the initial “waves” of infantry it had in the beginning. Therefore, it is not buying any land units except a few from the leftover IPC’s. Instead, it is predominantly purchasing battleships (and lots of those). The British have no choice but to surrender their waters.
Side point: I prefer to use the Ottomans to simply send all Bulgarian and Turkish-produced forces to Russia. They do not need to survive (pessimistic, I know, but I care for the good of Germany much more). Also, by attacking only one territory on a front at a time, the Austrians can lose very few units, too. This strategy has also been experimented with, and enabled Austria-Hungary to hold Italy with its Tyrolean, Trieste, and Bohemian armies, while the rest challenged the Ukraine. Even if Russia is able to hold off the Austrians (which is unlikely), the Ottomans easily side-step to Tatarstan, and threaten Moscow.

@ossel:

My only question with this “snowball” strategy is: what is France doing while you’re combining all of your troops into one territory? Why wouldn’t they just go around you and drive through high-IPC areas like Munich and Berlin?

Same thing as if they went into the “Scorched Belgium” Trap: If one or two infantry side-step, send 4 or 5 to stop them. If a larger French army does this, annihilate it with your whole force.

@Preussener:

First of all, the Deutsche army should have virtually all of their forces in one place by the time they reach Paris.

What I listed for the Round 5 attack is every starting German west of Prussia and Silesia (-2 inf for taking Belgium). I actually failed to include one French purchase so the French would actually defend with every starting unit + 4 turns of buying 8 inf + 6 units from Portugal/Africa. So the actual Round 5 attack is G: 45 inf, 16 art, 3 fig vs. F: 60 inf, 9 art, 1 fig. Not winnable barring insane dice. And since you have only been building ~15 IPCs of ground/turn, postponing the attack will only yield worse ratios, since Paris won’t be contested. I suppose you could dive in R5 and then not attack for a while, but again, Russia or Italy is going to be threatening something by then.
@Preussener:

With a higher attacker/defender ratio, the defender tends to lose all of its units in the first roll, and the attacker loses relatively few. It is extremely efficient. I march into Paris in 5 turns, and completely capture it the next turn. There are usually about 10 infantry, all 15 initial artillery, and a couple fighters left over in the end.

Exactly what is France purchasing to allow this?

@Preussener:

Once again, this strategy has been successfully tried numerous times.

And the 4-move checkmate in chess has been tried successfully numerous times. That does not make it a sound strategy.

@Preussener:

Side point: I prefer to use the Ottomans to simply send all Bulgarian and Turkish-produced forces to Russia.

So how is Britain not able to prevent this from Persia? Or supporting Russia through Kazakhstan? Are they even building in India or engaging in a futile naval buildup with Germany?

@Preussener:

Also, by attacking only one territory on a front at a time, the Austrians can lose very few units, too. This strategy has also been experimented with, and enabled Austria-Hungary to hold Italy with its Tyrolean, Trieste, and Bohemian armies, while the rest challenged the Ukraine. Even if Russia is able to hold off the Austrians (which is unlikely), the Ottomans easily side-step to Tatarstan, and threaten Moscow.

You’re using 18 inf, 6 art to hold off the Italians for an indefinite amount of time? Italy can attack Trieste with 17 inf, 6 art Round 2. That increases to 24 inf, 8 art for a Round 3 attack. This also leaves only 30 inf, 6 art starters to challenge a conservative 26 inf, 11 art in the Ukraine (4 inf in Sevastopol). Plus you are required to send unit(s) into Serbia. Plus Russia has those Romanians if you don’t kill them.

So, in my opinion, Paris can never be the CP’s initial objective. Germany can build straight ground and send almost everything into France, but the goal of this is actually to lift pressure off the Ottomans. The other strategy I think might have a chance of success is if Austria tackles Russia on its own (one big army is better than two split), the Ottomans focus on India (don’t mess around in the Balkans), and Germany tries to hold down France and Italy in the west until Russia is subdued (preferably revolted so you don’t lose as many Austrians).

@ColonelCarter:

@Preussener:

First of all, the Deutsche army should have virtually all of their forces in one place by the time they reach Paris.

What I listed for the Round 5 attack is every starting German west of Prussia and Silesia (-2 inf for taking Belgium). I actually failed to include one French purchase so the French would actually defend with every starting unit + 4 turns of buying 8 inf + 6 units from Portugal/Africa. So the actual Round 5 attack is G: 45 inf, 16 art, 3 fig vs. F: 60 inf, 9 art, 1 fig. Not winnable barring insane dice. And since you have only been building ~15 IPCs of ground/turn, postponing the attack will only yield worse ratios, since Paris won’t be contested. I suppose you could dive in R5 and then not attack for a while, but again, Russia or Italy is going to be threatening something by then.

Huh? Nearly 70 French units in Paris? Where did they come from? Perhaps they all retreated and France is broke on IPC’s? Where did France get the money?

@ColonelCarter:

@Preussener:

Once again, this strategy has been successfully tried numerous times.

And the 4-move checkmate in chess has been tried successfully numerous times. That does not make it a sound strategy.

I whole heartedly agree. That is why I intend to continue experimenting with this in real games (not just calculations).

@ColonelCarter:

@Preussener:

Side point: I prefer to use the Ottomans to simply send all Bulgarian and Turkish-produced forces to Russia.

So how is Britain not able to prevent this from Persia? Or supporting Russia through Kazakhstan? Are they even building in India or engaging in a futile naval buildup with Germany?

@Preussener:

Also, by attacking only one territory on a front at a time, the Austrians can lose very few units, too. This strategy has also been experimented with, and enabled Austria-Hungary to hold Italy with its Tyrolean, Trieste, and Bohemian armies, while the rest challenged the Ukraine. Even if Russia is able to hold off the Austrians (which is unlikely), the Ottomans easily side-step to Tatarstan, and threaten Moscow.

You’re using 18 inf, 6 art to hold off the Italians for an indefinite amount of time? Italy can attack Trieste with 17 inf, 6 art Round 2. That increases to 24 inf, 8 art for a Round 3 attack. This also leaves only 30 inf, 6 art starters to challenge a conservative 26 inf, 11 art in the Ukraine (4 inf in Sevastopol). Plus you are required to send unit(s) into Serbia. Plus Russia has those Romanians if you don’t kill them.

That is for an Eastern Front discussion.

@Preussener:

@ColonelCarter:

@Preussener:

First of all, the Deutsche army should have virtually all of their forces in one place by the time they reach Paris.

What I listed for the Round 5 attack is every starting German west of Prussia and Silesia (-2 inf for taking Belgium). I actually failed to include one French purchase so the French would actually defend with every starting unit + 4 turns of buying 8 inf + 6 units from Portugal/Africa. So the actual Round 5 attack is G: 45 inf, 16 art, 3 fig vs. F: 60 inf, 9 art, 1 fig. Not winnable barring insane dice. And since you have only been building ~15 IPCs of ground/turn, postponing the attack will only yield worse ratios, since Paris won’t be contested. I suppose you could dive in R5 and then not attack for a while, but again, Russia or Italy is going to be threatening something by then.

Huh? Nearly 70 French units in Paris? Where did they come from? Perhaps they all retreated and France is broke on IPC’s? Where did France get the money?

France starts with 26 inf, 8 art, 1 fig on the mainland. They don’t have to lose any of these armies if they don’t wish, since the territories that they would put ‘blockers’ in are going to be massively stormed by Germany anyway.
Round 1 buy 8 inf, collect 26 (+Portugal +Sp. Morocco -Fr. Eq. Afr.), end 26
Round 2 buy 8 inf, collect 24 (-Lorraine), end 26
Round 3 buy 8 inf, collect 22 (-Picardy), end 24
Round 4 buy 8 inf, collect 18 (-Brest, -Burgundy) end 18
This brings our total up to 58 inf, 8 art 1 fig.
Finally, France can transport the Portuguese 3 inf, 1 art as well as 2 inf from Africa into Bordeaux by R2-3 to make it into Paris by R4, to achieve the maximum troops in Paris before a R5 German attack of 63 inf, 9 art, 1 fig. However, I would suggest putting 1-2  inf in each of Brest and Burgundy R3 to force the Germans to put some risk into taking them. If you can use Italians to block Burgundy, even better.
To summarize: France is surprisingly durable economy-wise. They have 8 virtually untouchable IPCs not part of mainland France, Fr. Eq. Afr. is fairly easily liberated, and Bordeaux and Marseilles aren’t threatened for a while. That’s 4 inf even when their capital and over half the country is under siege.

@Preussener:

Hello, all,

I have had a general strategy for Deutschland against Frankreich that has worked well, every time (6 times now).

Germany has so many land units in the beginning that they can simply go all-out navy-builds if they use their troops efficiently (something the Germans were usually known for). By using a land strategy of “Boom-and-Bust” sending overwhelming forces into one territory at a time, Germany loses very few soldiers. You will then move all armies in West and Central Germany to the west (only East Prussia and Silesia need to hold down Russia, especially when the Austro-Hungarian and Turkish players are attacking them).

Following this rule, the best thing to do on land would be to send all 14 infantry and 6 artillery into Belgium. On the second turn, use all 30-something units available (including Munich forces) to take Lorraine. Third, take Picardy. Fourth, storm into the capital with about 30-something units. And finally, the Berlin force of nearly 20 units will be “having lunch in Paris”.

As for its navy, the Germans can become a nightmare for the UK if they spend all on 2, and later 3-4 battleships, per turn. The Brits, and later the Americans, do not stand a chance on the high seas.

Once again, this strategy has worked very well for me, and I would be delighted to see how it comes out with someone else.

• Chris

You must be playing against French and British players who have no idea what they’re doing.  The French should generally be building nothing but infantry and the occasional plane until the Brits have landed enough troops in Picardy or Belgium to make a counteroffensive viable.  With the French doing this and the Brits also landing troops, I don’t see any way the Germans can take Paris in time.  I say in time because the U.S. is entering the war in Turn 4 and will also be able to dedicate amphibeous forces and navy to support the French and Brits against Germany.  Not only that, but by that time and with no offensive towards the eastern front, not only will Russia have likely avoided the revolution, they will also be able to consider making an advance on German territory.

Simply put, the Ottomans and AH are not strong enough by themselves to take down Russia without Germany’s help.  If AH dedicates everything to Russia, they will pay the price in Italy and the Balkans.  And if the British player is doing his job in India and Persia, Ottoman won’t be able to contribute much to Russia besides the Bulgarian forces and possibly one turn of infantry out of Constantinople without having to worry very soon about the loss of their own territories.

This game is a pretty simple race against time.  Can the CPs knock out Russia before the U.S. gets involved in the war and the Americans, British, and French have assembled enough troops in Belgium, Holland, or even Picardy to end Germany’s dreams of taking Paris?  If so, then the CPs have a good chance of winning.  If not, then they don’t.  I’m not saying Russia has to be revolted or taken over by Turn 4 or even Turn 5, but it needs to be well on the way to happening.  Germany and AH need to be able to start sending those troops to the Western fronts (France and Italy, respectively) as soon as possible in order to really compete.  Ottoman just needs to stay alive.  If Russia survives and can hold off the revolution, the game is over for the CPs.  That is the game.  On the other hand, if Russia is knocked out relatively quickly, it’s looking good for the CP particularly once Germany can start building tanks to accompany their forces returning from the east.  The combined forces will prove to be devastating against the French.

Based on my experience Germany really needs to develop a tank stack before they can successfully take out the French, and that can’t start to happen until turn 5 at the earliest.  If they go after the West like you suggest, by turn 5 the Brits and French should be holding a pretty good line and may have even been able to divide the German forces.  (As the allied player, I smile whenever Germany is wasting money on navy.  It’s a battle they won’t ever be able to win in the long run, especially once the U.S. joins the fight.  All that is doing is preventing them from buying more ground troops to threaten the Russians or French.)  Alternatively, they can send the bulk of their forces after Russia and have either forced the RR by then or be well on their way.  That is a much better use of their first few turns based on my experience and a better overall strategy.

I’d be willing to bet that if you surveyed everyone on this board, the vast majority of the games that involved a CP victory included taking out Russia first.  When the CP are not able to take Russia or force the RR early in the game, even if they somehow are able to get Paris as you propose, these games will inevitably result in a CP loss.  (Unless of course, the French and British players totally don’t know what they’re doing, as I mentioned earlier.)  Based on all the games I’ve played and all the strategies I’ve seen and used, the battle for Russia is 90% of the ballgame for the CP.

Leaving Russia alive spells doom for the Central powers.

Especially when you fail to achieve any other objective. Taking France as Germany is simply not doable, or viable. Attacking players need almost twice the amount of troops the defender has to defeat him.

This is incredibly difficult to achieve against France, if not impossible without taking extreme measures.

Besides, why attack France when you can attack Russia instead?

Thinking of making it a hard rule that the USA will not declare war unless Russia is defeated or has collapsed.

This represents the fact that Wilson did not want to align America with the absolute Tzarist monarchy. Using PTR any collapse represents the fall of the Tzar and a republican Russia, meaning USA can declare war (though still not before turn 4).

How would this effect the KRF strategy outlined above?

Would CP players push Russia to the brink of collapse, but deliberately avoid tipping it over?

Would a KFF strategy become more viable given the indefinite postponement of US intervention, or do the CPs still need the income from a conquered Russia to defeat the western europeans?

In other words how important is the ticking clock of American involvment in determining CP strategy?

Flash, you were absolutely right. The US-war-declaration just followed the February Revolution in Russia.

But why not say US only enters war after it loses its income because of USW ?

If I do remember it correctly, THIS was the reason told to the world.

If the Germany player doesn´t start USW, this game won´t see an US intervention!

And here we are again - reconsidering the useless USW rules…

On the topic of going Paris first:

We took this route a couple of times OOB, only change was reducing French sz15 fleet to just a cruiser, by swapping out BB, and removing the transport (we were doing this even before the tourney rules). The eastern crush Russia first strat gets boring (and also seems to fail), so we wanted to look at the west. It didn’t go well, but to be honest we only did it a couple times, and I think it could be improved.

We basically had Germany go full tilt West, and A/H go East (with some assistance to both). As stated one very strong axis army tends to work better then two weaker multinational armies side by side when on the attack.  All available German units went west except Prussia and part of Silesia (needed to help def against Russia). You also need to have a small 9-12 unit A/H contingent with you in the west to watch your flank (probably hit the Italians in Venice to weaken/threaten them, then move into Switzerland etc…).

The Germans can gain temporary control of the North Sea OOB w/o a major navy build up (reduction of French sz15 fleet helps), but I have to say we didn’t buy BB’s for Germany to prolong it, interesting idea though (could this be a key to success?). Yeah buying a couple BB’s would weaken your reinforcements coming in from Berlin, but if you had long term control of the sea, besides keeping the Brits out of France you could transport German units to Picardy from Kiel faster then if they had to make the long walk. The problem here of course is that the English mines from sz9 could cost you the game when your transports move back-n-forth to Picardy, even if you have full control of sz9 w/escorts. This happened in one of our games, the Germans kept loosing transports to mines (not saying this is a flaw, but if you have establish complete control of an enemy mined sz and are simply moving transports back-n-forth the next turn should they be subject to mines? or should the sz be considered cleared of mines).

Anyway, the French can put up a monster defense by themselves by pulling back/turtling, buying mostly inf, and pulling in reinforcements from Portugal etc… It is also next to impossible to put a dent in the French income because of untouchable territories in Africa/Portugal etc…, plus the French territories along the border are only worth 2 IPCs (unlike their counterpart German border territories worth much more).

Once the Italians figure out you aren’t gunning for them, they can also reinforce thorough the Med (could send inf/planes by transport?).  The Brits may not be able to put many boots in France, but if they manage to get a couple ground units over, they might be able to send a couple planes to Brest via Whales  to help gain air superiority (might need to sacrifice A/H air to tip the scales for the main German assault for Art boost). Just a thought, but a bold French player might even take out Spain turn2 (from Portugal/Bordeaux) to collect 4 more IPCs (risky, maybe wait and have an ally weaken it first?).

A/H will have their hands full w/Russia, but if they are patient and get a little help I have seen them rival what the Russians can bring (and even turn the tables). Italy does become a problem though, and they will start to invade the Balkans, and can also help out the French by Sea. This is why I think an early German navy build could work. It could draw much of the allied Med ships to the Atlantic, then would the A/H navy have a chance? (probably not, but would make for an interesting game none the less).

BTW, I also think that USW is a joke in this game (non existent). They should look at couple things. Add sz’s that can be attacked by USW, and have a threshold of USW that needs to be crossed to bring in the Americans, and/or make it harder to kill subs. The allies didn’t have an answer to sub warfare especially in the early days (couldn’t spot them). The allies main defense against subs were threats that the US would join the war (the Germans would back off, then reengage to test the US resolve). Even destroyers weren’t effective at this time, but they used air to spot subs though.

Maybe expanding the the roll of a fighter should be looked at. Fighters are already used to spot for art (boost attack/def), so maybe you should also be able to use fighters to spot subs in adjacent sz’s. This would cause a bit of a problem with the one movement phase, and would create an exception (might be worth it). You would have to allow fighters a NCM, but they can only use it if they use just one move in the normal move phase. This would allow a fighter to fly out 1 space to an adjacent sz, spot subs for their warships to attack (at full values), and move 1 more space afterwards to land (plane still only moves a total of 2 spaces max). It would also allow a fighter to move 1 space in a ground battle, then retreat if it chooses to (could retreat or stay depending on situation). If the fighter moves 2 spaces to get to a ground battle it must stay in that territory (used all its movement).

IDK, maybe you have a rule that says if an enemy sub submerges, you can’t hit it, unless you have a fighter spotting for you (maybe a submerging sub can only be hit with a roll of 1 if not using a plane to spot, still defenders choice?). If you have a fighter spotting for you, then all your warships fire at their normal values. That way if the enemy sub stays on the surface to fight (maybe fodder for other ships), then it can be taken out at normal attack values. This would have no effect on subs used in an attack, because all defending ships would defend at normal values because the sub attacked, didn’t submerge (gave up its position).

Good discussion. I see a few things:
1. Focus on Russia.
2. Hold off France (Deutsche Army).
3. Hold off British (Kaiserliche Marine).

Yes, guys, I have been slightly changed on my position (for the better, right?). If France retreats all its forces, let it go.
However, I still hold that whenever France starts trying to go on the offensive (and losing more troops than you), punish it soundly.

Going after the British Navy is very rewarding, also…
@WILD:

We basically had Germany go full tilt West, and A/H go East (with some assistance to both). As stated one very strong axis army tends to work better then two weaker multinational armies side by side when on the attack. Â

The Germans can gain temporary control of the North Sea OOB w/o a major navy build up (reduction of French sz15 fleet helps), but I have to say we didn’t buy BB’s for Germany to prolong it, interesting idea though (could this be a key to success?). Yeah buying a couple BB’s would weaken your reinforcements coming in from Berlin, but if you had long term control of the sea, besides keeping the Brits out of France you could transport German units to Picardy from Kiel faster then if they had to make the long walk.

This is the strategy that has worked for me to keep Britain from the coasts of France (even when I play against experienced players).

By buying all/mostly navy on its turns, Germany has been able to accumulate ten battleships by the time the US becomes involved, with the UK hopelessly attempting to challenge them with their purchase of two BB’s a turn. This forces UK to focus on the Turks instead, who can then simply contract and pile infantry (sort of like France).

From the discussion, it seems that many have fallen into the trap of “following France into its den”. If France retreats, just focus on Russia until the French gain back their nerve.

For one, taking russia out first is always a good idea, france and italy don’t have the power to overrun germany and AH unless they receive A LOT of british help within 3 turns. Play defensive on the western front and focus on crushing russia, it can easily be done if all three CP’s collaborated. Once Russia is down it is essential for AH do establish a front with France by controlling Piedmont. This means AH needs to focus on taking the northern reaches of Italy. this can be done by using the ICP’s gained from Russia and the Wave of extra troops coming from the eastern front. By establishing a border with france you extend the front line they must hold up, therefore reducing the amount of troops per territory. Once this occurs they are more spread out and less compact, making them more susceptible to collapse after constant pressure. In conclusion, France will be able to hold off germany unless the frontline gets extended beyond what they can comfortably defend.

Take Russia first but keep steady punches on France til you can mount a force of tanks!

If you are going after France, you are gonna have a bad time. Expect to lose.

The best you can do is go after Italy first and knock it out. That way you are not fighting four countries on your western front, you are only fighting 3. USA, France, and Britian.

The most optimal strategy in general is going after Russia, because once that is done… you no longer have to put troops on that side of the board. It is done, you have a one front war.

When you have only one front, all of Hungary and all of Germany goes in one direction. Hungary will give Italy a hard time and eventually take it over if the two are left alone to fight. Same with Germany and France. So the Allies are forced into a defensive role. Meanwhile Turkey is going to go after the British Economy so France is not going to get the full might of the British to help out.

America is almost a non factor in this game, because it simply does not ship 10 units a round every turn starting in round 4, it takes a freaking long time before they have a stack of units that can be considered a threat to anything.

The Italy first strategy is a bit trickier, because after you take Italy with Hungary, Hungary and/or Germany will always have to invest into Russia. You want it to be mostly Hungary dealing with the Russians, because Germany has to deal with the French. Turks have to deal with the Brits. That is just how that works. So it is pretty much up to the Russians and Americans to come up with some kind of game changer.

~

Why France first means you are going to have a bad time?

1. That is the easiest thing for the allies to defend.

2. America’s closest landing spot is on your western front, you will end up dealing with them sooner as opposed to later down the road, later down the road the 12 units they managed to advance mean absolutely nothing.

3. The British can drop men off if necessary.

4. The Russians will pressure your eastern income.

Germany just has too much to deal with going after France.
~

Similarly when going after London. If you do go after london, have Hungary deal with the Russians so Germany has the same stack of units defending against France and Rome, without pressure from Russia. If you do get london, America will do its thing eventually, so you are going to pick everything up and ship it to Northern Russia and you will take out Russia in the end anyway.

Every Central Powers strategy has Russia as Step 1 or Step 2. You need an answer to Russia, because they are isolated making it difficult for them to receive help from the allies and if left alone they will come to you and make things difficult for you to fully invest into attacking any other power.

Cow’s explanation regarding Germany attacking France makes sense from me. It seems much more profitable for Germany to commit against Russia, which is isolated. Allies defending france can combine France, UK, and Italy in a way that seems unrewarding for Germany to attack.

Disclaimer is that I’ve only played 1 game of this, but I’m very experienced A&A mechanics with hundreds of games with top tier players.

@Preussener: I hope you don’t take offense, but it’s very likely your opponents aren’t strong. I note repeated mentions of destroying large numbers of units or surprise. This is evidence that opponents are placing units in a deadzone allowing the opponent to make profitable attacks/trades. Evidence of highly competitive play is a drawn out game with opposing stacks and trading border territories with minimal troops. An experienced player also can project purchases and movements 3-10 rounds out, such that “surprise” doesn’t figure into the game.