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Transports failed amfibious attack



  • What would happen in this situation.

    Transports dont move but load and then unload from the same SZ.
    A hostile submarine is available in the SZ as well as a friendly destroyer and some planes. ( so you can load )
    Now defender scrambles 1 fighter and hits the destroyer.
    Attacker kills the fighter but fails to destroy the sub.

    As we are in combat and the planes cant hit the sub and the sub cant hit the planes it is a stalemate there.
    You cannot unload because there is still sea combat going on.
    You cannot retreat because to retreat you have to move to a zone that your naval was comming from which is this SZ.

    Will the transports be defenseless ?? They cant run and the sub cant die.


  • '14 Customizer

    Bye bye transport and its cargo. The defender takes hits first. If he takes the plane then you lose your plane and keep the DD otherwise you lose everything except your plane.


  • 2017 2016

    I read this on page 32-33 of Pacific 1940:

    Remember that hostile sea zones contain enemy units, but that for purposes of determining the status of a sea-zone, submarines and transports are ignored.

    A transport can load and offload units without moving from the friendly sea zone it’s in (this is known as “bridging”).

    From my little understanding of the situation, the attacker could have ignored the sub (even with a DD escorting the transport) and go directly offloading the transport. In this case, their is no battle in the SZ and, hence, no possibility to scramble a defending plane.

    I’m I right?

    As a complementary on p. 32:

    Subs
    Doesn’t Block Enemy Movement: The “stealth” ability of submarines also allows ships to ignore their presence.

    I just read that scramble can occur even when no friendly ship is present in the SZ.

    So it means that the plane can defend the SZ.
    But what happen if the attacker just want to make an amphibious assault and ignored the sub?
    Is their only the scrambling plane which can roll for defense?

    Or is it a case where it is the scrambling plane which “awake” the friendly sub in the SZ and make it a part of the battle?



  • @Baron:

    I read this on page 32-33 of Pacific 1940:

    Remember that hostile sea zones contain enemy units, but that for purposes of determining the status of a sea-zone, submarines and transports are ignored.

    A transport can load and offload units without moving from the friendly sea zone it’s in (this is known as “bridging”).

    From my little understanding of the situation, the attacker could have ignored the sub (even with a DD escorting the transport) and go directly offloading the transport. In this case, their is no battle in the SZ and, hence, no possibility to scramble a defending plane.

    I’m I right?

    As a complementary on p. 32:

    Subs
    Doesn’t Block Enemy Movement: The “stealth” ability of submarines also allows ships to ignore their presence.

    Subs block amphibious assaults from transports that are not escorted by warships.

    @ShadowHAwk:

    What would happen in this situation.

    Transports dont move but load and then unload from the same SZ.
    A hostile submarine is available in the SZ as well as a friendly destroyer and some planes. ( so you can load )
    Now defender scrambles 1 fighter and hits the destroyer.
    Attacker kills the fighter but fails to destroy the sub.

    As we are in combat and the planes cant hit the sub and the sub cant hit the planes it is a stalemate there.
    You cannot unload because there is still sea combat going on.
    You cannot retreat because to retreat you have to move to a zone that your naval was comming from which is this SZ.

    Will the transports be defenseless ?? They cant run and the sub cant die.

    Since you can’t retreat, I guess the transport, and its cargo, are screwed.


  • 2017 2016

    Subs block amphibious assaults from transports that are not escorted by warships.

    How can the sub block the transport when the transport is escorted by DD?
    And both DD and Transport are not attacking the sub?



  • @Baron:

    Subs block amphibious assaults from transports that are not escorted by warships.

    How can the sub block the transport when the transport is escorted by DD?
    And both DD and Transport are not attacking the sub?

    When the defender scrambles, his sub becomes part of the battle (can’t be ignored now). I know it is hindsight now, but the DD or transport could have probably moved out of the sz, then back in to create an escape route.


  • 2017 2016

    @WILD:

    @Baron:

    Subs block amphibious assaults from transports that are not escorted by warships.

    How can the sub block the transport when the transport is escorted by DD?
    And both DD and Transport are not attacking the sub?

    When the defender scrambles, his sub becomes part of the battle (can’t be ignored now). I know it is hindsight now, but the DD or transport could have probably moved out of the sz, then back in to create an escape route.

    So it is really a case where the scrambling plane “awake” the friendly sub in the SZ and make it a part of the battle?

    Do you know in which section of the rulebook I could find it?



  • @Baron:

    Subs block amphibious assaults from transports that are not escorted by warships.

    How can the sub block the transport when the transport is escorted by DD?
    And both DD and Transport are not attacking the sub?

    The sub can be ignored if the transport is escorted.


  • Customizer

    What if the sub and scrambling fighter are not from the same country but are allies?
    Say the attacking units are Japanese. The sub is American and the scrambling fighter is British. Would that make a difference?


  • '14 Customizer

    However, a transport
    is not allowed to offload land units for an amphibious
    assault in a sea zone containing 1 or more ignored enemy
    submarines unless at least 1 warship belonging to the
    attacking power is also present in the sea zone at the end
    the Combat Move phase.
    (p16 A&A Europe 1940 2nd ed rulebook)

    If sea combat occurs, all attacking and defending sea
    units present must participate in the battle. (Even if the
    attacker chose to ignore defending submarines and/or
    transports, they will still be involved in the battle if the
    defender scrambles air units and forces a sea battle.)
    Conduct the sea combat using the rules for General
    Combat (below), then go to step 3 (land combat).
    (p18 A&A Europe 1940 2nd ed rulebook)

    Transports may not attack without being accompanied
    by at least 1 unit with an attack value, unless they are
    conducting an amphibious assault from a friendly sea
    zone that is free of enemy submarines.
    (p34 A&A Europe 1940 2nd ed rulebook)

    Transports cannot load or unload in a hostel sea zone.  Enemy subs do not make a sea zone hostel, however, Transports are not allowed to unload land units for an amphibious assault in a sea zone containing any enemy subs unless at least one friendly warship was also present in the sea zone at the end of the Combat Move phase.

    By moving a warship(Battleship, Cruiser, Destroyer, No unloaded Carrier since they have an attack value of 0) into the zone with the sub you create a sea combat.



  • @knp7765:

    What if the sub and scrambling fighter are not from the same country but are allies?
    Say the attacking units are Japanese. The sub is American and the scrambling fighter is British. Would that make a difference?

    On defense, multinational forces defend at the same time, so it should not change anything.



  • @cyanight:

    However, a transport
    is not allowed to offload land units for an amphibious
    assault in a sea zone containing 1 or more ignored enemy
    submarines unless at least 1 warship belonging to the
    attacking power is also present in the sea zone at the end
    the Combat Move phase.
    (p16 A&A Europe 1940 2nd ed rulebook)

    If sea combat occurs, all attacking and defending sea
    units present must participate in the battle. (Even if the
    attacker chose to ignore defending submarines and/or
    transports, they will still be involved in the battle if the
    defender scrambles air units and forces a sea battle.)
    Conduct the sea combat using the rules for General
    Combat (below), then go to step 3 (land combat).
    (p18 A&A Europe 1940 2nd ed rulebook)

    Transports may not attack without being accompanied
    by at least 1 unit with an attack value, unless they are
    conducting an amphibious assault from a friendly sea
    zone that is free of enemy submarines.
    (p34 A&A Europe 1940 2nd ed rulebook)

    Transports cannot load or unload in a hostel sea zone.  Enemy subs do not make a sea zone hostel, however, Transports are not allowed to unload land units for an amphibious assault in a sea zone containing any enemy subs unless at least one friendly warship was also present in the sea zone at the end of the Combat Move phase.

    By moving a warship(Battleship, Cruiser, Destroyer, No unloaded Carrier since they have an attack value of 0) into the zone with the sub you create a sea combat.

    No, escorting your transport wouldn’t necessarily result in combat. As noted, you would have to escort the transport in order to perform the amphib because of the enemy sub in the sz. You can still ignore the enemy sub in that situation though, have no sea combat and do the amphib as long as the def doesn’t scramble. If the defender scrambles then you have combat, and the sub is included in the fight.

    To Baron Munchhausen, cyanight did a nice job paraphrasing from the rules above.


  • 2017 2016

    No, escorting your transport wouldn’t necessarily result in combat. As noted, you would have to escort the transport in order to perform the amphib because of the enemy sub in the sz. You can still ignore the enemy sub in that situation though, have no sea combat and do the amphib as long as the def doesn’t scramble. If the defender scrambles then you have combat, and the sub is included in the fight.

    To Baron Munchhausen, cyanight did a nice job paraphrasing from the rules above.

    Thanks everyone.
    Thanks for the last answer. It resolves all my last doubts.


  • Official Answers

    Wild Bill is correct.



  • @Krieghund:

    Wild Bill is correct.

    Yahhh, got one right!


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