• What if Operation Habicht or Panther was launched instead of Zitadelle?

    For the ones of you not knowing what these operations were, Habicht was the launch of a small offensive across the donets to straighten the frontline of army south, and operation Panther was an extended version of Habicht, with the intension to push the Soviets back a little further.


  • An earlier jump off would have made alot of difference in outcome. Hitler wanted to postpone so he could throw in more Elephants, but the defensive preparations really made success impossible. Had they started in about April /May 43 would have done much more.


  • Morning Axis Tiger. I believe the Germans’ only hope in 43 was to keep things on a small scale. Russian errors in counterattack and logistics could always be punished by superior German tactics and Generals. Zitadelle was far too complicated an operation and delays would prove costly. The Husky landings would change everything 5 days after the start.
    Have you any idea whose plans those two smaller ops were?


  • I am not sure who created them exactly, but they might have been Hitler´s.

    According to this, Hitler turned his attention to the Donets line southeast of Kharkov after 4th Panzer captured Belgorod.


  • @wittmann:

    Morning Axis Tiger. I believe the Germans’ only hope in 43 was to keep things on a small scale.

    On the contrary. Germanys only hope in 43 was to dug in a defensive line in Russia that was easy to hold. Then they should scramble all available forces and punch through Turkey and grab the oil fields in Iraq and Persia. This would work in real world for sure, but not as good in a game of Axis and Allies, because there you need luck with the dice, man

  • Customizer

    From what I understand, Turkey was not interested in joining the war.  Moving through Turkey would have been a non starter.

    Plus the added logistical problem of supplying the Turks and German units across the straits.

  • Customizer

    Or were you proposing attacking Turkey?

    If you were, that would have entailed an offensive on a scale the Germans were no longer able to do.  Especially in mountainous terrain with the added problem of trying to get supplies across hostile straits.

  • Customizer

    @wittmann:

    Have you any idea whose plans those two smaller ops were?

    I believe it was Manstien that proposed an immediate attack on Kursk after his successful capture of Kharkov.  He wanted to attack them while they were still off balance after his counterattacks of the spring.

  • Customizer

    Rasputitza and panzer divisions down to 25 panzers made that almost impossible.

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