Eastern Front Broken - $5 German tanks too powerful, income disparity a problem


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    After several games it’s clear… the $5 German tanks unleash an unbeatable terror in Russia, and Germany more or less has no reason to build any other unit on the eastern front - ever.

    Russia at full income of $48 faces Germany averaging $65-70 + the Axis minors of $15 or so. 
    -Excluding the fact that Russia has to “warm” up it’s income,
    -Excluding the fact that Russia starts with far less units…
    -Excluding the fact that Russia only has 2 factories able to produce 20 units, (1 which they will shortly lose), facing double or better production capacity.

    How is Russia supposed to compete against double it’s income, overwhelming industrial capacity, and cheap tanks on the eastern front?

    The task is impossible.

    Suggested Remedy options (pick 1 or a combination)

    • Russia gets it’s full income right from the start
    • Russia gets a factory in Stalingrad or Caucasus
    • Germany pays $6 for tanks
    • Russia gets $2 infantry
    • Russia starts with more than 2 tanks (How about 6?)

  • '13

    Russia can supplement its income by taking iran, iraq, and mogolia. Russia should also have taken finland, and norway depending on how much pressure germany put up north. Britian can send planes into leningrad  aswell, and bomb the German factories. Keep up the bombing and you should eventually even out the income that germany can spend against russia. Italy will need Greece and Yugoslavia to try to win africa, so if germany takes them, the allies will probably win africa with ease. This allows troops to travel through the south as well. Also once the the german navy and italian navy is down The allies can push pressure in many places. It may seem futile at first but this can take lots of pressure off of russia.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Appreciate the attempt quintas but are we even playing the same game?

    The rules as I read them do not allow Russia to move into Iran. And Mongolia is worth 2 ipcs… After using probably 3 infantry losses to take it?

    The rules also don’t specifically allow for pro allied neutrals to be activated by Russia. It just says strict neutrals can be attacked.  It reads “allies” and Russia is not a member of the allies until at war unless I’m mistaken?  So how can you activate Iran?

    worse, the only way to activate Iran by turn 2 is to use 50% of your armor to drive down from Orel. Else you have to wait until R3 to activate.

    As for Finland, our experience is that its a pointless crap shoot that usually sees Russia on the losing end against superior air power.  Especially if you are going to send half your tanks south.

    Why its being recommended that Russia attack with its infantry is beyond me…  The suggestions above will probably net up to 12 IPCS for Russia by turn 4.  But will cost upwards of 30 in terms if lost units.   Any other takers to the question?



  • @Quintus:

    Russia can supplement its income by taking iran, iraq, and mogolia. Russia should also have taken finland, and norway depending on how much pressure germany put up north. Britian can send planes into leningrad  aswell, and bomb the German factories. Keep up the bombing and you should eventually even out the income that germany can spend against russia. Italy will need Greece and Yugoslavia to try to win africa, so if germany takes them, the allies will probably win africa with ease. This allows troops to travel through the south as well. Also once the the german navy and italian navy is down The allies can push pressure in many places. It may seem futile at first but this can take lots of pressure off of russia.

    I agree something has to change. Russia historical defeated Germany without taking Iran, Iraq, Mongolia, Finland, or Norway. Let alone all 5. Also Russia historical beat Germany when Germany not Italy took Greece and Yugoslavia. If Russia is unable to defend herself in a way that is historical accurate then I believe there is a problem. It’s the same thing as in Global with Russians taking off for Africa for the income. No one is a fan of seeing it because it just flat didn’t happen. Also and winning strategy in a game of half this complexity should NEVER EVER be just buy this one unit and attack. $5 Germany tanks have been tried before and it didn’t work well in revised and well it still doesn’t work.


  • '13

    When we have been playing, mongolia has fallen with alittle help with the comminist chinese, the casualties usually didnt amount to anything but that was probably luck.

    Usually germany had sent its planes to to take on the british navy, take france, attack poland, on turn 1 which mostly left planes farther away from finland. Plus if germany went to war with the soviets turn 2, it will allow that tank to reach iran and collect the income and recieve the units iran gives. Plus the soviets can put there economy in gear and start putting out the units. The british can also send planes and drop a commando here and there to help with finland and norway. I dont know how it worked, during our  recent playthrough, but Germany has just gotten over eastern poland for the second time(only buying tanks), and itll have a hard time beating the soviets now starting turn 5.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    I just saw that Russia pays 6 icp’s for tanks. Have 3 major factorys in Moscow, Karelia, and Caucasus. 2 minors in Ukraine and Belorussia. Russian  tanks at 5 icp’s and German tanks at 6 icp’s.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Good suggestion SS.  I would go so far as making Russian tanks -1 less effective for the -1 dollar.  Keeps with historical accuracy, and stops 100% tank purchase s for Germany.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Also - Chinese can’t attack Mongolia!  Unless they are also allowed to mar h all the way to Moscow/Berlin lol?

    Rules vague here again…


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Just for the record - I will clarify some info.

    Russian starts with:
    16 infantry. (10 more out east, between 4 and 9 turns away)
    2 mec
    5 art
    2 arm
    4 fgt
    1 tac
    15 ipcs

    Germany with its axis minors…
    44 infantry
    7 mech
    6 art
    5 arm
    6 fgt
    4 tac
    2 bomber
    52 IPCs to start and a “double impulse” turn.

    On average Russia’s income increases 12 ipcs per turn. So at the END of turn 3 average rolling will have Russia at 36 ipcs.

    Meanwhile we must acknowledge that Germany wipes up France and Holland (capturing incomes) and the polish.  Who should be counted in favour.

    Germany by g2 collects between 60-70,  + the minor axis ( another 14)

    And there is also Italy which I have not allocated.

    The 11 sub’s 2 cruisers 3 destroyers and battleship are enough to keep england away.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    In fairness - I do agree Germany has some fights in its hands in Europe.  But the income disparity absolutely prevents Russia from doing anything. And Germany also has Italy with its surface ships and 35-40+ income.

    But Russia is supposed to use the limited resources it has to attack Neutrals?  For +2 to +5 ipcs? And that makes the difference?

    $5 tanks need to go lol!


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    In our global game Russia starts with 37 inf and Germany has 18 not counting minors. Germany has to Influence and/or annex the minor countrys too. Russia has inf at 2icp’s and tanks at 4 icp’s. Germany has inf at 3 icp’s and tanks at 5 icp’s. Game does have less money involved too. Just some suggestions.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Do you have a link to your game SS?


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Russian starts with:
    16 infantry. (10 more out east, between 4 and 9 turns away)
    2 mec
    5 art
    2 arm
    4 fgt
    1 tac
    15 ipcs

    Germany with its axis minors…
    44 infantry
    7 mech
    6 art
    5 arm
    6 fgt
    4 tac
    2 bomber
    52 IPCs to start and a “double impulse” turn.

    The Soviet army was much larger than the German army. Of course, it was much weaker for about 5 months until they learned how to fight against Blitzkrieg. They didn’t completely learn until probably Kursk.

    This is what i feel should be a historical setup:

    1941 Starting setup:

    Germany:
    Army Group North:  East Prussia: 12 infantry, 4 Artillery,3 Armor, 3 Mechanized
    Plus: 1st Air fleet : 3 Fighters, 2 Fighter-Bombers, 1 Bomber

    Army Group Center: Warsaw: 20 Infantry, 7 Artillery, 9 Armor, 7 Mechanized
    Plus: 2nd Air fleet: 3 Fighters, 2 Fighter-Bombers, 1 Bomber

    Army Group South:  Place the following units as you wish in Lublin, Moldavia and Bucharest: 20 Infantry, 6 Artillery,5 Armor, 3 Mechanized, Plus: 3rd Air fleet in Moldavia: 3 Fighters, 2 Fighter-Bombers, 1 Bomber

    Finnish Army in Finland: 6 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 1 Armor, 2 fighters

    52 infantry plus 6 in Finland

    One AA gun in every territory with a factory.

    Soviet Union:
    Baltic Front @ Leningrad: 8 Infantry,1 Artillery,1 Armor, plus supporting air element: of 2 Fighters also in Leningrad.

    Western Front @ Lithuania: 14 Infantry, 3 artillery, 2 Armor, 2 Mechanized and Vilnus: 12 Infantry 4 Artillery, 6 Armor, 7 Mechanized, plus supporting air element in Minsk: 2 Fighters, 2 Fighter-Bombers, 1 Bomber

    Kiev Front: Place the following units as you wish in Brest and Lwow: 13 Infantry, 4 Artillery 6 Armor, 6 Mechanized, plus supporting air element in Kiev: 2 Fighters, 2 Fighter-Bombers, 1 Bomber

    Odessa Front:  Bessarabia: 8 Infantry, 3 Artillery, 3 Armor, 3 Mechanized, plus supporting air element: 2 Fighters, 2 Fighter-Bombers, 1 Bomber

    Stavka Reserve @:
    Moscow: 6 Infantry, 1 fighter, 1 Fighter-Bomber
    Kharkov: 2 Infantry
    Smolensk: 2 Infantry

    53 infantry total. Note Germany has alot more tanks than the listed setup.

    I would add more German tanks, more Soviet Mech, and more Soviet infantry to balance based on what Garg posted. That would make it more Historical anyway. And 5$ tanks makes no sense. Make Soviet tanks $5 and German 6$.  The Soviets should have a reserve income that cant be spent until the Germans get within striking distance of Moscow. That should also balance out.


  • 2020 2019 2018 '16 '15 '11 '10

    2 IPC soviet infantry would not be a poor change. I’d prefer to keep the five IPC German armour. An IC in Stalingrad would be helpful as well.


  • 2020 2019 2018 '16 '15 '11 '10

    Oh and,

    In the games the group I play with, by the time turn ten rolls around things are jusT getting good. Id like to see a fee more turns for a victory.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    No


  • 2017 '16 '15 '14 '12

    German tanks should cost $6

    Here is why tanks can’t be priced at $5 with weak $4 artillery and $4 mechs (hitting at 3 in D12 versus 2 in D6 like in Global 1940):
    With $40 Germany can get 8 tanks, with 48 punch on attack, and 48 on defense with 8 hits
    With $40 Germany can get 5 art and 5 mechs, with 30 punch on attack, and 40 on defense with 10 hits
    Germany would really be crazy to build anything but tanks

    Things change a lot if tanks cost $6:
    With $48 Germany can get 8 tanks with 48 punch on attack, and 48 on defense with 8 hits
    With $48 Germany can get 6 art and 6 mech with 36 punch on attack, and 48 on defense with 12 hits
    A smart $48 build might be 4 tanks, 3 art, 3 mech (42 punch attacking, 48 on defense with 10 hits)

    Russian mechs should cost $4 and Russian artillery should hit at 4 (inf or mech paired with art still hit at 3)

    Russia should be able to do some counterattacking and have enough mobility to move units where they are needed.  At $5, Russian mechs are too expensive to be an efficient way to move themselves and artillery units where they are needed (perhaps to attack @3 but more likely to defend @4).  Second, Russian artillery attacking @3 is pretty puny given the tank armies they may be counterattacking and considering the historical effectiveness of Russian artillery (i.e. katyusha rockets). Making mechs $4 and increasing their hit power of art to 4 gives you this:
    A purely defensive $48 build would be 16 inf @ $3 (32 punch attacking, 64 on defense with 16 hits)
    An offensive $48 build without mobility might be 8 inf, 6 art (46 punch attacking, 56 on defense with 14 hits)
    A $48 build for mobility might be 6 art and 6 mech (42 punch attacking, 48 on defense with 12 hits)
    A very offensive $48 for mobility build might be 4 tanks @ $6, 3 art, 3 mech (45 punch attacking, 48 on defense with 10 hits)

    Those tweaks give Germany motivation to build a more realistic force with combined arms, and give Russia some mobility and chance to fight back.  If that’s not enough to even things up, maybe try adding fortresses in Stalingrad and Moscow, and minor ICs in Stalingrad and Leningrad.


  • 2020 2019 2018 '16 '15 '11 '10

    The problem I see with going to 6 IPC german tanks is that the argument largely relies on the battle for Russia. True, Germany can build a relatively large tank army and smash the Soviets early on, but as the allies grow in strength she won’t just be facing Russians. Germany is just not as strong as she initially appears and that becomes more apparent as the game wears on.

    The allies can bottle her up and soon enough have forces in the USSR to support the Russians. I like the idea about more ICs for the Soviets and cheaper infantry, this would certainly help with balance early on (perhaps a discount on fortifications too), but germany just may need those 5 IPC tanks to fight off the combined strength of the allies. There’ s a reason they developers gave Germany the discount and it may have to do with giving her a fighting chance in the long game.

    Perhaps the upcoming expansions will provide a dynamic that sorts some things out as well. We may even see new pieces (such as anti tank guns) which could be used to blunt the German tank push.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Rather than focusing on “expansions” it would be preferrable if they hashed out the basics first.

    Good post on the tanks Variance.


  • 2020 2019 2018 '16 '15 '11 '10

    Good point re expansions vis a vis basics,  but it still begs the question why did they give germany 5 IPC armour? Variance makes great points regarding the numbers and you’ve made good ones regarding the extras for the Soviets (2 IPC infantry, new ICs). Overall though, I am not too sure about scraping the 5 IPC German tanks due to the reasons given above. Heck, I’d even go for cheaper/better Soviet artillery as suggested.

    Have you tried a game using the changes you suggest? It’d be interesting to see the effect.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    Maybe try 3 major, 2 minor factorys and inf at 2 icps for Russia. It might offset the lower inf total for Russia at start of game. Just gonna have to play test it. I`m working on getting this game setup right now too.


  • 2020 2019 2018 '16 '15 '11 '10

    Right on SS,

    Please tell us how it goes.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Based on my past experiences inf @ 2 IPC’s has been game breaking the other way…

    Germany with its 5 dollar tanks might save 10 to 15 IPC’s in a turn.  Russia with $2 infantry, will save $25+ a turn, and have hits to spare.

    So I have another alternate proposal.
    -Give Russia + 1 minor IC in Stalingrad
    -Lose the Russian Berlin NA (As it’s never used).
    -New NA - “For the Motherland!” Russia gets +1 infantry during the place units phase each turn at any industrial complex it holds in the following territories (Moscow, Novisibirks, Karelia, Stalingrad), so long as it has held the territory from the beginning of it’s turn.  This advantage does not count against maximum production.

    This inspires the Axis to go hard and fast for the industrial complex’s, or face that many more infantry a turn.  It’s an incentive for the axis to start early, without breaking the game.

    If that’s not enough, the NO can be reworded so that Russia gets +1 inf per complex it holds.  They may gamble and place extra factories early, as an investment,  but may have to pay the price for it down the road.

    Only 1 problem remaining.

    Germany is still only going to build tanks, because dollar for dollar, Germany gets so much more out of thier tanks.  My proposed solution? Bump tanks back to 6, and for each Major factory Germany controls from the start of it’s turn - it receives +1 armor at that location during the place units phase.

    Seems like a K.I.S.S. solution to me.

    Thoughts?


  • 2017 '16 '15 '14 '12

    If you were to give Germany and extra mech at each major instead of an extra tank, then maybe they would build some artillery to go with them to the front and defend the tanks?


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    What if you try putting a limit on tanks for Germany. Keep it $5 but force them to buy art or mech like Var said. I know its startin to not be K.I.S.S.


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