• Had Germany and Japan entered a treaty before conflicts erupted during the war, and Germany requested warships (two ships) for the trade of aircraft engines and weapon technologies, which Japanese ships would you request?

    As Japan what German Technologies would you ask for in return for two warships?

    This topic came to mind, since the German cruiser Lutzow was sold to the Soviet Union as part of the Non Aggression Pact of 1939.

  • 2024 2023 '22 '21 '20 '19 '18 '17

    An interesting idea. The obvious choice for Germany in terms of size of the ships, would be the aircraft carriers Shokaku and Zuikaku - and I’m taking some liberties here because while these ships were launched in 1939, they were not commissioned until 1941, so maybe they should not be considered available “before conflicts erupted”.
    Even with two additional modern aircraft carriers, the German fleet would still have been no match for the Royal Navy, but the mere existence of these ships would cause the British severe headaches because Germany’s battleships and cruisers would have been able to operate with effective air support, or at least the threat thereof.

    In return, as Japan I’d like to have a few hundred Panzer IV tanks. They were available in 1939 and could have made a difference at Khalkhin Gol. And again, their mere existence would have forced the Soviets to think twice before moving their armies from the Far East to the Western front.


  • I didn’t have time to think about this before you posted, but your idea is great Herr KaLeun.
    Well said.


  • I don’t believe the Japanese would part with the best fleet carriers, however the older Kongo class Battleships with some rearmament in AA, secondary weapons, German optical equipment and radar would have almost doubled the German capital ship numbers.

  • 2024 2023 '22 '21 '20 '19 '18 '17

    True, but you asked hat I would request. Actually getting it is quite another matter.  :-D

    More battleships, I don’t know. There’s strength in numbers, but as Germany I’d like to have carriers, to increase my tactical options. Maybe I can have Hiryu and Soryu instead? But I’ll have to reconsider those Panzer IV’s now!


  • Or convince them that the PaK 36 is and always will be the best anti tank gun in the world and capable of penetrating any allied tank.
    That way you would have to invest more into the PaK 38 and not get quite a shock when your only readily available AT gun proves useless against all but a handful of the enemies’ tanks.

    A German aircraft carrier, even one that can only carry 60 planes would be a hell of good swap for the plans for a  Mk IV. (I think Germany only had about 100-200 in 39.)

  • Customizer

    @Herr:

    True, but you asked hat I would request. Actually getting it is quite another matter.  :-D

    More battleships, I don’t know. There’s strength in numbers, but as Germany I’d like to have carriers, to increase my tactical options. Maybe I can have Hiryu and Soryu instead? But I’ll have to reconsider those Panzer IV’s now!

    I’m going with Herr Kaleun.  What you want and what you’d get are quite different.  But 2 carriers would also be what I wanted.  With Zeroes.  I’d give Japan the Scharnhorst/Gniesenau.  I’ll throw in a couple panzer IVs.


  • I also Go with the idea of Herr KaLeun.
    But fitting the two Carriers with Me Bf 109/k 's and modified Stukkas.

    Giving the Japanese Panzer III concepts of Tanks and StuG’s and weapon carriers in return.


  • In realistic terms, such a trade would have to involve ships:

    a) that a naval power like Japan could afford to give to Germany
    b) that would be of significant practical use to a land power like Germany

    Requirement (a) rules out Japan giving up any of its fleet carriers (and probably any of its smaller carriers too), as well as any of its modern (or modernized) battleships and battlecruisers. Japan could have afforded to give Germany some destroyers, but these would not have met requirement (b) – they would have been somewhat useful to Germany, but they wouldn’t have been game-changers by any stretch of the imagination.  Cruisers might have been the best option for negotiations along these lines – say, one heavy cruiser, or a couple of light ones.  Japan could have spared such ships more than flat-tops or battlewagons, and they would have been more useful to Germany than destroyers…most probably in a surface-raiding capacity in the Atlantic, similarly to the role that Prinz Eugen played for a while.

    One qualifier, however, is whether what is being traded are finished weapons (constructed warships; constructed tanks) or simply weapon technologies.  If I were Japan, I’d never trade a warship for a mere technology.  Instead, I’d instead trade a warship for a very large number of finished weapons (remember that major warships take years to build and represent a huge capital investment), or I’d trade a technology for a technology.  I think that Japan’s biggest selling point would have been its oxygen-fueled Long Lance torpedo, which in its time was the best heavyweight torpedo in the world.  Arming German U-boats in the Atlantic with Japanese Long Lance torpedoes is probably the most useful thing Japan could have done for Germany’s war effort at sea, and it would not have required Japan giving up a single IJN ship.  I’m not sure what German technology I’d have asked for in return – I’ll have to think about that one.


  • @CWO:

    In realistic terms, such a trade would have to involve ships:

    a) that a naval power like Japan could afford to give to Germany
    b) that would be of significant practical use to a land power like Germany

    Ryūjō and Zuihō-Class could be match winners for The Reich I think ,to secure the Channel as practical use.
    Smaller Carriers could indeed provide saftey in the Channel for mine sweeping and Submarine traffics.

    The Reich of course could have had it way more cheaper in transforming old ships into light carriers such as the British HMS Audacity.

  • 2024 2023 '22

    @abworsham4

    I’ll settle with Japan giving Germany two “I-boats” (basically the Japanese version of U-boats, but with totally different functions due to differences in doctrine). I call them I-boats because all the ships in this group of ships (with several classes) started with the letter”I” (there was also the shorter range, possible cheaper, older, and generally inferior RO- boats). These submarines carried the type 95 torpedo, superior to the famous type 93 on Japanese cruisers and destroyers. More submarines for the Battle Of The Atlantic is always a great thing, and U-boats, especially those manned by great crews, with these torpedos could have been deadly.

    In return, Germany could give Japan some of their experience in radar and optics-it was a real problem for the Axis, not sharing technology with each other, even though the Kriegsmarine was ordered to under direct orders from Hitler (who they didn’t follow). This is especially a problem as the Allies did share technology with each other.

    I think German panzers would not have helped Japan anyway, as they would have been too heavy to transport, and armoured warfare in general was not needed on the islands of the Pacific and China (who didn’t have many good tanks at all, so Japan had no need to have better tanks). If I had to choose a land weapon for Japan to use, I would choose the 88mm anti aircraft gun. A superb anti tank gun that can fight any US tank and possibly a good help for the anti aircraft armament of Japan’s ships (if it could be adapted to naval use).

Suggested Topics

  • 1
  • 2
  • 7
  • 4
  • 13
  • 6
  • 51
  • 98
Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures

43

Online

17.0k

Users

39.3k

Topics

1.7m

Posts