34 Turn game Allies win?

  • So, I may FINALLY win a game with Allies against an equally skilled opponent and i am a little concerned about how close it was considering all the factors.  My bid was 12 with i took an art in Alex and a tank in Egypt and nailed Tobruk turn 1.  I picked up Malta and tucked the UK fleet into the backside of the Seuz where it linked with a fighter and a tactical from India.  Turn two I shoved the fleet back into the med in SZ 98 and airbased Egypt and linked up with a DD/Cruiser from India.  Turn 3 was a double can open (France followed by USA) on two Italian DD’s which let me crush the main Italian fleet with very light casualties.  Where it gets crazy is I get a Rome capture (and hold) and turn 4 because S-italy is light from landing 4 on Gibraltar (which i buy moderate sized tranny fleet to counter, instead of my normal 80% pac- 20% Atlantic split with USA) which get stranded when USA liberates it.  So, on turn 4 USA captures N-Italy and creates a landing strip for the 10 UK aircraft that are nor in range of Rome.  the landing force is merely the two UK trannies from the Atlantic which amazingly survived the 2 sub attack on the opening round.  So, i get a bonus tranny/dd from Canada, crush the Italian fleet turn 3 and capture and hold Rome turn 4 and it takes me 34+ turns to get in position to win. And by position to win I mean Germany is making 124 a turn because it has all of Russia and middle east, but it doesn’t matter because Italy is at 0 and Japan is at 25 and Germany has no viable access to an 8th VC.  I geuss the moral of the story is the Allies can win a 34 turn slug fest if conditions are perfect.

  • I can see the data…

    I can see the bids…

    I can see that I’m not the best player…

    But I still don’t understand the bids for Allies.  Outside of a few rare occasions, our Saturday live game still sees the Allies at an 80+% win status.  Maybe we’re just bad Axis players.

    Also, 34 turns!?  I’m curious if this was forum or live.  I’m also wondering what the German counter-attack was if you were able to grab Rome on 4 and hold it for another 30 turns…I mean, for 9 IPC a turn, at 30 turns…that’s like…math…90 infantry sitting in Europe.  Not to mention the push from Russia and the UK up through Africa.  Did Russia fold?

    If you have a save file, I wouldn’t mind checking it out.  The most amount of turns I’ve gone is around 22, and that’s only been once.  I’d love to see moves 15+ (our live games usually end around turn 15).

  • Hello AK_Grown, that’s exactly my point.  Germany was strong enough to pin my combined Allied army in S-Italy by stacking N-Italy.  Russia was holding up pretty well until Japan took Inda and then retook my Russian held Iraq and Somaliland from me a cut my IPC.  Russia bled to death until Germany took their hit.  S-Italy and N-taly stacks grew to well past 100 units for each side until USA’s shuck was halted by dire needs in the pac just a few turns after Moscow fell. The result was Germany hit my S-Italy stack (at that point about 120 units) and got in with 10 tanks remaining (which I countered with my next level transport schuck).  I traded N-Italy and S-Italy desperately to deny Euro Axis victory (Germany had Egypt because my Persia stack of about 60 men returned to India to liberate it) until I finally had Japan bottled down enough to turn 100% of USA and UK money toward retaking Egypt.  It was a crazy game.

  • Hi Pherman,

    nice crazy game you played there. Looks like a fun and exciting one indeed!
    I have to disagree with the moral of the story if you mean to say that the Allies have bad chances of winning (or only ever after, say, 20+ turns).

    I agree with AK. In my group I see the same thing: Axis can only win if the allies do not respond well. Provided equal level of players, of course.

    I must say though, I think the Allies are hardest to play and are the easiest to make mistakes with.

    Even more so because the Allies do not know the exact Axis plans.
    For example: a friend of mine once played the Allies and  he went KillGermanyItalyFirst. He didnt ignore the Pacific but Japan could still focus down Hawai. As a result, Japan was NOT strong enough to take India but it was firmly isolated and that was enough.
    Italy fell but in a surprise action, Germany attacked neutral Afganistan, ignoring a heavily fortified Moscow. India was doomed two turns later, assuring the Axis win (Pacific VC) so the Allies gave up.
    Needless to say Germany was as good as done for in Europe but this IS (imho) the game-balance of AAG40.2:
    The Axis have a shot at victory for the first 10 turns or so. If the Allies play without mistakes and can perfectly see what the Axis plans are, the Axis cannot win. However, this is the difficulty for the Allies in the first place! WHAT are the Axis plans?!

    I am absolutely 100% sure that I could not have won that game for the Axis if the USA would have been stronger in the Pacific and weaker in Europe! If the Axis cannot take Hawai or Sydney then who cares if India falls?

    Imho, the absolute weak spot for the allies in AAG40.2 is the Pacific. They… must… prevent… Japan… from getting… 6VCs there! Once that is secured the remaining investments can go towards Europe.
    Many players do not like this (Pacific 6VC) ‘balance’ but as I see it, it is the only way the Axis still have a chance at winning a game of AAG40.2!

  • I’ve been down this road before on these forums, but I just dont get how people think axis is harder to win with.

    Germany is nearly undeniable into Moscow when played strongly, and Japan is all over the map requiring huge USA commits not to dominate the Pac and take a win there, crushing India under its boot with zero problems and then just casually chasing off the combined allied fleets if USA doesnt spend close to 80 percent in the pac.

    I cant remember the last game I lost with the axis, and that includes games against Pherman and several other very strong AA players, whose Axis in turn I can rarely ever play to even for very long, let alone beat.

  • Customizer

    34 turns?!? Man that is a long game. I just had one last 25 rounds, but that was only because Japan was super strong and won in the Pacific while the Allies trounced Germany/Italy in Europe. It was technically an Axis win in the Pacific, but we wanted to see if Japan could keep it up and take over the whole world. They did by the way.

    In most of our games, usually Axis wins happen in 8-10 rounds while most Allied wins take 12-15 rounds.

    I understand what you mean. I once saw a Russian stack of about 60 infantry in Moscow, but that was only because they totally turtled and just waited for the Germans to come to them. I rarely see battles involving more than 30 pieces, and that includes aircraft flying in from other territories.

    I know what you mean about the Japanese victory conditions (6 VCs) in the Pacific. I have read posts by some gamers here that wish to abolish that rule. They say it is too easy for Japan. I don’t think it is all that easy. Really though, Global 40 needs that Japan victory condition to give the Axis a shot at winning. This way the Allies (particularly USA) have to decide how much to commit to each side. Without that rule, the Allies could let Japan run hog wild while hammering Germany out of existence. There would never be an Axis victory.

  • Yup, I agree about the VCs, without them it would be a very different game, and no one would ever do anything but KGF.

    As to stack size, to me a standard G6 push on Moscow is AT LEAST 50 units, if not more, just in the time it takes to get there, I dont really see how games have smaller stacks then this, unless Russia is pushing out and provoking earlier fights (usually a bad idea given how much air G has).  Maybe Russia can stack a spot for say one turn, Bryansk usually, and slow things down, but Russia almost never gets a swing on a german stack, does it?

    So then good allied play involves a stack of brit air to moscow to deny the G6, so we’re now talking 60-70 units on Moscow, minimum, and Germany counters this with another 20-50 units of fast, depending on map conditions.

    How do you guys NOT see these stacks in nearly every game? I dont gt it.

  • Ok, help me here.

    Where are you seeing opportunities to do this with Russia?

    If you tried that stuff against my G play, my steamroll of Stalin would be overwhelming.  I dont give Russia these kind of hits, I push a massive stack straight to ukr that russia cannot stop, so I dont understand where these fights are happening.

    What kind of purchases is Germany making to have so little left over to hit the capital?

    Im genuinely curious where these fights are taking place, please give me an example.

  • Russia got into Romania? on a non-sealion?? That seems….counterproductive.

    I never have trouble taking Leningrad…I simply push 40 units at ukr, which is nothing but the starting stacks and the fast that comes back from the Paris crush.

    Russia cannot stop it, and must fall back or I will crush his stacks.  If he attempts to defend Nov, I get Moscow, so typically a smart player gives away Nov, and I march in with nothing but the finland inf.

    I just dont see why anyone would be trading in these circumstances, other than just a few inf as essentially blitz blockers…it seems like trying to fight for ground just for the sake of fighting…what does it gain?

    My goals as Germany are pretty simple, threaten moscow heavy, if i cant take it early (g6), then I take and hold Cauc and volgo for the massive bonuses…I just dont get why you would mess around letting russia hit your units.

    Getting back to the OP, Pherman’s 30 turn monster was just a crazy fun game to watch develop.

    The back and forth between theatre focus and advantage between the two players was so riveting.  Early on J was threatening to get out of control, since USA had gone heavily against Italy…this forced a heavy pac commit from all over the place, even UK trannies taking units from Italy to the middle east, eventually resulting in Japan being forced to back out of India after having forced UK to back out earlier…

    It was just nuts

  • @rjpeters70:

    Because you’re constantly fighting, constantly attriting one another, constantly going on offense.  Seriously, find a weak spot in the opponents defenses, exploit it, push through, make him react to the operational tempo you chose, don’t just sit there and let him come to you.  I mean, Sweet Jesus, last time I played the Axis, Germany attacked Moscow with about 15 units total, and they had about 12 total defenders, and this was about on G6, with a G3 DOW on USSR.

    The only way you get such massive stacks is if you’re simply not fighting I’m guessing.

    1.  That was just rhetoric.
    2.  If you push out too quickly, you will either get decimated in an attack against the German stack, or you will lose moscow.

  • on a G3 declare, Germany can stack Bess with roughly 35-40 units.  Fast purchased on G2 will be in position to join for a W ukr stack on G4, but not a ukr stack.  It is not uncommon for Russia to be able to stack bryansk with enough units that G cannot stack and hold Ukr, forcing a W ukr stack instead, but it is also common for G to be able to have enough to do ukr, and gain the factory for g5 purchases, it depends on where russia has set its priority.

  • @rjpeters70:

    What stack though?  That’s not much of a stack, on either side, since they’re too busy slaughtering one another.

    Germany just ignores almost everything else and heads straight for bryansk.

  • (The way I play Germany:)
    Create 1 huge army that marches into Russia and arrives in Bryansk G5, ready to attack Moscow G6, together with purchases from G5 (aircraft in Berlin/fast in Ukraine). Purchases in G1/2/3/4/5 are always aimed at maximally reinforcing this marching ‘deathball’, like ghr and Demandr described.

    Russia has no choice but to surrender Leningrad+Ukraine and Germany should gladly take them with some token forces (1 to 2 inf + air).

    What the Allies CAN do about this (very generally speaking because of all the variables): Russia retreats into Moscow while building a lot of inf + ART(!). RAF helps to defend it. UK + USA getting strong at Gibraltar/London + Middle East and, very important, setting up ‘bomber command’. Comes G6 Germany cannot attack Moscow because it is too heavily defended. Luftwaffe is tied into Russia (making life easier for the allies preparing for DDay) because otherwise Russia begins counter-attacking, ending the German presence there. Germany can take Caucasus + Stalingrad but NOT in force because then the Russians can break out where it is most effective, attacking and destroying the German army defending Bryansk if there is still some there. If there is not, because all the Germans are in Caucasus/Stalingrad, what is to stop Russia from retaking Leningrad, Ukraine and all those juicy eastern-european countries? Nada.
    Too bad this game has no ‘out-of-supply’ rules as this is exactly what happend in Russia, starving the massive German army in Stalingrad.

    In the pacific, the USA + ANZAC have Allied task number 1: prevent an Axis (Pac 6VC) win. This does not mean Japan has to be killed (though you can certainly try), but Hawai + Sydney must be held. If Japan crushes India this is an easy job. If Japan clearly invests in taking Hawai/Sydney (luckily the USA goes after Japan so can react), the task is more difficult, but India will be safe  longer and can even become strong strong strong if Japan focuses too much on Hawai. Most Japanese players I have seen, invest heavily into taking India and Middle East and THEN they try to take Hawai/Sydney. This gives the USA breathing space to invest around 20% per turn into the Pacific, spending 80% of its income into Europe. By the time Japan is ready to invest into taking Hawai the USA can switch to near 100% into Pacific (depending on the Japanese investments) without a problem because its forces in Europe are already massive.

    Note that I am using the LL system in my games (and posts) to predict/dictate what major powers must do to stay alive. The LL system is usually pretty accurate and if the dice screw you up, well, then it’s the dice, not strategy, that cost you the game.

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