DK's Arms Research System…


  • '16 '15 '14 Customizer

    Here is my attempt at an arms research system. What’s good for one might not be good for others, but here are my ideas anyway. First I will explain the chart which is magnetized and placed at the end of the game table with the IPC chart.

    Notice the techs are grouped according to the time of the war instead of what type they are. You roll a six to get a tech as usual. Then you roll one die to see what tech you get. (As a tribute to the Classic rules, there are no scientists or research tokens.) If you roll for techs from round 1-4, notice you have no choice at all what tech you get in that first column, you must use that first column only, and the techs are not all that great. So there is a 1/36 chance you will get the exact tech you want from column one in rounds 1-4.

    If you roll for techs in rounds 5-9, it changes. This column contains mid-war techs, which mainly concern production. The war has progressed and now not only do you have more techs available but you have more opportunity to choose what you want. Say you roll a “2” for a tech in round five. Now you can choose between Tank Production on line two or Super Subs on line two. Or you could get “Researcher’s Choice” on line six, which would allow you to choose between all the current 11 techs in the first two columns. During rounds 5-9 there is a 1/18 chance you will get the tech you want.

    The next column contains Late-war techs. These cannot be tried for until round 9. This column contains most of the game changer techs. It also allows you even more free choices. There is a 1/12 chance you will get exactly what you want when researching on rounds 9-12.

    Finally on round 13 and after we have the end-war techs, which include the Atomic Bomb. 13 is the unlucky number so round 13 might be unlucky for your opponents if you get the A-bomb. If you successfully roll a six on or after round 13, there is a 50% chance you will get the A-bomb, and a 50% chance you will get to choose from every other past tech on the board. Notice there is also the option of putting your breakthrough in a queue on or after round 13. This will allow you to roll again for the A-bomb or choose another tech at your leisure on your following turns without paying more IPCs.

    The individual techs are all pretty standard and what you would find elsewhere here, so I won’t list my rules for them in this first post.

    Now as a safeguard to help prevent these techs wrecking the game I provide each player with a copy card, like this:

    The assumption is that once a tech exists, it will be easier for other nations to get it by covert actions. This brings an extra element of strategy also - do you use your one copy card early in the war, or hold it just in case your opponent gets the A-bomb at war’s end?


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    DK, Is it 5 icps for a dice roll and do the rolls carry over or used just that turn. Round 1 US buys 2 die rolls, after dice rolls then they are gone correct. I like it alot, really would spice up things and have you played using it yet. Breakthrough card is good too were you might have another that says destroy a tech. Sorry I cant get my question symbol to work on this key pad. It has 3 symbols per key. lol


  • '16 '15 '14 Customizer

    Yes SS, it cost 5 IPCs per die roll, and if you don’t get any sixes, too bad! I plan to try this with a group next week, but haven’t used it yet.

    I’m not sure about the “destroy a tech” idea, as I don’t see how it would be possible for a nation to “forget” how to do something it learned. However, it might work to “destroy a six” that was rolled before the player has a chance to roll for the tech. �


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    I was just posting back and you beat me to it. Ya block a roll or 2 for tech and no destroying tech. Just have it were it delays it.


  • '16 '15 '14 Customizer

    Yes that would work I think.


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    So from your pics in other tread you play 42 and how many rounds do your games go? Could shorten the rounds to 1- 3, 4 - 7, 8 - 10, 11 - 14  if need be or lenthen rounds? Like ya said you’ll have to play it and see.


  • '16 '15 '14 Customizer

    Ours usually go about 15 rounds - but with arms research who knows? Well have to play it out and see.



  • Mind listing what all the original techs do? (E.g Conscription)

    I’m interested  🙂


  • Customizer

    This sounds like a pretty cool idea. I kind of like the idea that certain techs are not available until later rounds. We have had a couple of games where someone managed to get heavy bombers on round 1 or 2, then they have a significant edge the rest of the game.
    I do have some questions:
    1 > The Atomic Bomb Queue: I understand that you can put your marker there if you roll a 1 - 3 and try to get the atomic bomb next round. On the next round, if you roll a 1 - 3 again, do you just stay in the Queue? Or do you have to choose one of the other techs then? Or do you lose the breakthrough?

    2 > Do you have some idea about how to use the atomic bomb? Does it destroy all units in a given territory? I assume you deploy it with a bomber. Can that bomber be shot down and you lose the atom bomb? Do you have to pay to build an atom bomb or once you get that tech, do you simply have atom bombs to use?

    3 > I am familiar with most of the techs on your sheet. Heavy Flak is the same as Radar (AA guns hit on a 2 or less), Production & Damage Control is the same as Increased Factory Production and Naval Production is basically Improved Shipyards. Am I correct on these?
    Also, I figure Heavy Tanks is simply boosting the attack/defense values of tanks to 4.
    Ones I am not familiar with are:
    Infantry Conscription
    Tank Production
    Air Production
    Do those simply lower the price of the units in question? If so, please give the new prices. If not, please explain these three techs.


  • '16 '15 '14 Customizer

    OK here they are - most of them are pretty standard and found elsewhere:

    ADVANCED ARTILLERY: Each artillery unit can support up to 2 infantry units
    per attack.

    SUPER SUBS: Subs now attack @ 3, convoy raid +1.

    PRODUCTION & DAMAGE CONTROL: Each of your industrial complexes can
    now produce additional units beyond their normal production ability. Major
    industrial complexes can now mobilize up to 12 units. Also, when repairing a
    damaged industrial complex, you can remove 2 damage markers for the cost of
    1 IPC (in other words, half price). The maximum damage that can be applied to
    your industrial complexes is not increased.

    HEAVY FLAK: Your AA guns shoot down enemy planes @2 or less.

    PARATROOPS: Bombers can carry & drop one troop each into land zones. (+1
    attack bonus for initial combat.)

    WAR BONDS: During your Collect Income phase, roll a die and collect that many
    additional IPCs.

    LONG RANGE AIRCRAFT: Bombers’ range increases to 8, fighters’ range
    increases to 6.

    TANK PRODUCTION: Tank cost is reduced 1 IPC.

    NAVAL PRODUCTION: Major warship costs are reduced by 3 IPCs. Minor ship
    costs are reduced 1 IPC.

    AIR PRODUCTION: Airplane costs are reduced by 2 IPCs.

    INFANTRY CONSCRIPTION: Infantry cost is reduced 1 IPC.

    HEAVY BOMBERS: Your strategic bombers are now heavy bombers. When
    attacking, whether in a battle or a strategic bombing raid, roll two dice for each
    bomber. Add 2 to every die roll during factory raids.

    ROCKETS: You can now purchase and use Rocket Bases. (One free to start.)
    During the Strategic Bombing step of each turn, each of your rocket bases can
    make a single rocket attack against an enemy industrial complex within 3 spaces
    of it. This attack does one die roll of damage to that facility. Rockets may not be
    fired over neutral territories and cannot be shot down. (V-2 Variety) Rocket
    bases cost 10 IPCs each and defend @1 if attacked. MOVEMENT: Identical to
    tanks. Cannot fire after moving during same turn.
    *I use an actual rocket game piece from HBG that fires over and over - hence “rocket base” - I think it is lame to use AA guns as they have NOTHING to do with rockets and that is just the gamemakers attempt to avoid supplying another piece.

    JET FIGHTERS: Fighters now attack @4, defend @5. Also, your fighters are
    now immune from AA fire.

    HEAVY TANKS: Your tanks now attack and defend @4 instead of 3.

    ATOMIC BOMB:
    • A-Bombs Cost 15 IPCs each. (One free to start.) May be dropped in land or
    sea zones. Must be carried and dropped by a bomber. (One per bomber.)
    • Due to the extreme altitude that the A-bomb is dropped from, no interceptors, AA guns, or other defending units can return fire.
    • Roll 10 die for each A-bomb dropped into a zone. Any 5’s or less are hits. An A-
    Bomb will destroy anything in a zone but an IC, including AA guns.
    • Roll 5 die and add for damage to any factory present. Leave a radioactive
    symbol on the spot where each A-Bomb was dropped. Subtract one I.P.C. from
    the value of the territory for each radioactive marker left in a bombed zone.
    • A-bomb defends @ 1 if attacked.
    • A-bombs can be moved by bombers in air, and like tanks on land and sea.
    SPECIAL NOTE: Attacker cannot combine a nuclear attack with a conventional
    attack or non-combat move in the same territory or seazone during the same
    turn.



  • Seems some good work, but with classic tech dice rules i doubt anyone going to buy much tech. You are most likely going to waste 5 IPCs.

    This is really the main problem with tech in A&A, not trees or other techs.

    No offense this is good work, but tech will still be worthless in most games.


  • '16 '15 '14 Customizer

    @knp7765:

    1 > The Atomic Bomb Queue: I understand that you can put your marker there if you roll a 1 - 3 and try to get the atomic bomb next round. On the next round, if you roll a 1 - 3 again, do you just stay in the Queue?

    If you roll a 1-3 again, you can either leave it in the queue hoping for the Atomic Bomb next turn, or pick from the existing techs. It represents some kind of delay in researching. It also gives the player the option of giving up on the bomb and choosing something else instead.

    Uncrustable - I realize classic type research won’t be used much by smart players. But really I feel this is what tech research should be - a minor sideshow. The POSSIBILITY of superior weapons appeals to many - kind of like buying lottery tickets. It’s another decision to make in the game. Take a gamble or stay safe? And to me the game seems incomplete without some of these advanced developments worked in.



  • You should make the tech more interesting and make tech dice linger.

    Like: every tech dice that fails gives a +1 to the first dice in the next tech roll.

    @Der:

    OK here they are - most of them are pretty standard and found elsewhere:

    ADVANCED ARTILLERY: Each artillery unit can support up to 2 infantry units
    per attack.

    Should also give an extra ‘first strike’ roll on defense @1

    SUPER SUBS: Subs now attack @ 3, convoy raid +1.

    Convoy raids should also happen @4 or less.

    PRODUCTION & DAMAGE CONTROL: Each of your industrial complexes can
    now produce additional units beyond their normal production ability. Major
    industrial complexes can now mobilize up to 12 units. Also, when repairing a
    damaged industrial complex, you can remove 2 damage markers for the cost of
    1 IPC (in other words, half price). The maximum damage that can be applied to
    your industrial complexes is not increased.

    HEAVY FLAK: Your AA guns shoot down enemy planes @2 or less.

    And can roll up to 4 dice?

    PARATROOPS: Bombers can carry & drop one troop each into land zones. (+1
    attack bonus for initial combat.)

    WAR BONDS: During your Collect Income phase, roll a die and collect that many
    additional IPCs.

    LONG RANGE AIRCRAFT: Bombers’ range increases to 8, fighters’ range
    increases to 6.

    Tac’s range increased to 6. I also think this should only increase a planes movement by 1, otherwise bombers will move @9 from an air base.

    TANK PRODUCTION: Tank cost is reduced 1 IPC.

    The FIRST tank you build that turn, should cost 1 less.

    NAVAL PRODUCTION: Major warship costs are reduced by 3 IPCs. Minor ship
    costs are reduced 1 IPC.

    cool.

    AIR PRODUCTION: Airplane costs are reduced by 2 IPCs.

    cool.

    INFANTRY CONSCRIPTION: Infantry cost is reduced 1 IPC.

    …forget heavy bombers, THIS, is ‘the tech’ to get.

    Price should be reduced to 2.5IPCs
    OR
    Get 1 free Infantry in or capital per turn

    HEAVY BOMBERS: Your strategic bombers are now heavy bombers. When
    attacking, whether in a battle or a strategic bombing raid, roll two dice for each
    bomber. Add 2 to every die roll during factory raids.

    ROCKETS: You can now purchase and use Rocket Bases. (One free to start.)
    During the Strategic Bombing step of each turn, each of your rocket bases can
    make a single rocket attack against an enemy industrial complex within 3 spaces
    of it. This attack does one die roll of damage to that facility. Rockets may not be
    fired over neutral territories and cannot be shot down. (V-2 Variety) Rocket
    bases cost 10 IPCs each and defend @1 if attacked. MOVEMENT: Identical to
    tanks. Cannot fire after moving during same turn.

    *I use an actual rocket game piece from HBG that fires over and over - hence “rocket base” - I think it is lame to use AA guns as they have NOTHING to do with rockets and that is just the gamemakers attempt to avoid supplying another piece.

    The rocket BASE should be immobile, and support 1 Infantry during combat. Instead of fighting on its own.

    JET FIGHTERS: Fighters now attack @4, defend @5. Also, your fighters are
    now immune from AA fire.

    HEAVY TANKS: Your tanks now attack and defend @4 instead of 3.

    Should be:
    Tanks can take 2 hits
    To be able to have your tanks absorb a hit, you must lose an other units on a 1:1 ratio
    E.g:
    you have 3 heavy tanks, 4 Infantry, and 5 casualties.
    you assign 2 hits onto your tanks, but the other 2 hits MUST be on your Infantry.

    ATOMIC BOMB:
    • A-Bombs Cost 15 IPCs each. (One free to start.) May be dropped in land or
    sea zones. Must be carried and dropped by a bomber. (One per bomber.)

    Or launched by a rocket base?
    Also the atomic bomb should not be able to target a sea zone.

    • Due to the extreme altitude that the A-bomb is dropped from, no interceptors, AA guns, or other defending units can return fire.
    • Roll 10 die for each A-bomb dropped into a zone. Any 5’s or less are hits. An A-
    Bomb will destroy anything in a zone but an IC, including AA guns.

    You should roll dice = to half the number of units on the territory OR 10. Whichever is higher.

    • Roll 5 die and add for damage to any factory present. Leave a radioactive
    symbol on the spot where each A-Bomb was dropped.

    Also roll a dice for the naval/air//rocket bases?

    Subtract one I.P.C. from
    the value of the territory for each radioactive marker left in a bombed zone.
    • A-bomb defends @ 1 if attacked.
    • A-bombs can be moved by bombers in air, and like tanks on land and sea.

    It should not be allowed to move like tanks, it should only be able to move 1 territory per turn ONLY through a territory that has an IPC value of at least 1. (to represent the need of SOME infrastructure to move such a precious object)

    It also shouldn’t be allowed to moved onto transport. It should only be allowed to move over the sea by taking up an entire carriers capacity.

    SPECIAL NOTE: Attacker cannot combine a nuclear attack with a conventional
    attack or non-combat move in the same territory or seazone during the same
    turn.


  • '16 '15 '14 Customizer

    Thanks for the input!


  • '16 '15 '14 Customizer

    I think you are right on the infantry - although it was in the classic rules under production its too strong. How about “one new infantry placed in any territory you have controlled since the beginning of your turn” to represent conscription in outlying areas?

    My thinking on the mobile V-2 bases is in late war they looked like this:

    And here is a clip from Wikipedia:

    “The missile could be launched practically anywhere, roads running through forests being a particular favourite. The system was so mobile and small that only one Meillerwagen was ever caught in action by Allied aircraft, during the Operation Bodenplatte attack on January 1, 1945”

    And why would the A-bomb take an entire A/C carrier to move? The parts fit easily on a cruiser when carried to its assembly point in WWII.



  • @Der:

    I think you are right on the infantry - although it was in the classic rules under production its too strong. How about “one new infantry placed in any territory you have controlled since the beginning of your turn” to represent conscription in outlying areas?

    My thinking on the mobile V-2 bases is in late war they looked like this:

    And here is a clip from Wikipedia:

    “The missile could be launched practically anywhere, roads running through forests being a particular favourite. The system was so mobile and small that only one Meillerwagen was ever caught in action by Allied aircraft, during the Operation Bodenplatte attack on January 1, 1945”

    And why would the A-bomb take an entire A/C carrier to move? The parts fit easily on a cruiser when carried to its assembly point in WWII.

    Thats a German thing. I dont think the allies would be making German things.

    Besides, i doubt the rocket truck would be able to blitz through and conquer enemy territory. Why cant it just be immobile? all the other bases are.

    I think every nation should have a slightly different


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    DK,

    You should introduce the “Research Facility” piece.  Would work well with your program.

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=22164.0

    Each power excluding China starts with 1.

    Cost is 15.  Gives 1 tech roll.  If you capture it, you can “steal” a tech and destroy the facility.  Or, keep the facility for the extra die per turn.  You also can only roll whilst at war.


  • '16 '15 '14 Customizer

    What do you use to represent the facility?


  • '16 '15 '14 Customizer

    @1Bean432:

    Also the atomic bomb should not be able to target a sea zone.

    They dropped quite a few nukes on the test ships in Bikini Atoll after 1946. (over 20)


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    @Der:

    What do you use to represent the facility?

    See the last page of the Research Facility rule.

    The fortress America laser piece fits in perfectly.  It’s the right scale, looks labratoryish and is the same gray as the aa guns and industrial complexes.


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    DK, you trying out your new techs this weekend$


  • '16 '15 '14 Customizer

    @SS:

    DK, you trying out your new techs this weekend$

    Yes it worked well - but the game ended early in Round 7 due to Japan losing its capital - so not all research was opened. Still there were about 7 breakthroughs. It did not really change the war but added a smidge of extra interest, which is what I was going for.

    In my rules the research took effect at the end of your turn, but I think immediately would be better in the future, like the OOB rules, to represent the secret research your country is doing and the rude surprise the enemy gets, like when they first saw jet fighter sover Europe with no warning.


  • '16 '15 '14 Customizer

    After some playtesting I made these changes:

    • Accelerated the times of the breakthroughs. Now you can get nukes on round 10 instead of 13.

    • Replaced War Bonds with Improved Mech.

    • Incorporated research tokens into the system

    • All breakthroughs take effect immediately

    Detailed rules here:

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34496.0 Â


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Nice chart – I especially like the graphics.


  • '16 '15 '14 Customizer

    Updated graphics for my Arms Research chart. Paratroopers have been removed. I plan to add paratroopers and transport planes as standard units. Paratroopers have been replaced with Super Carriers which will be magnetic and can carry 3 planes.

    The chart is vertically mounted on a piece of sheet metal at the end of the table. Magnetized roundels stick to it to show what nation has a breakthrough.


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