What would you do as allies in this situation?

  • Hey guys,

    me and a friend have started a AAG40.2 game recently. We wanted to see the aftermath of a succesfull ‘surprise’ Sea Lion so we agreed that I, playing as allies, would turn a blind eye with the Allies turn 1 and pretend I 'd have no clue at all that a Sea Lion would still be possible.

    My friend and I agreed that a ‘surprise’ Sea Lion means that Germany will loose all his TRS by default, but he gets to have London.

    I’ll try to give a clear picture of what happend in rounds 1,2, 3 and 4.

    Edit: Some of the more obvious actions are not mentioned, such as Germany taking Paris and destroying almost all the RN GE1. Also, UK took Persia UK1 but not Iraq. Sorry I was lazy 😉

    So what happened and what did it turn into?
    Round 1:

    • GE bought 1STR + 4 ART, saved2. Prepped for Barbarossa G3, took YUG, BUL, FIN

    • RU bought 4ART + 7INF, moving away from the Germans, massing 1 territory deep. Siberians retreated 1 territory towards Moskou

    • JA attacked China in force, refrained from attacking the Wallies to not mess with operation SL and garrissoned Manchuria

    • USA produced for moving an invasion force into Gibraltar with protection against German STR

    • CH liberated Yunnan, massing in Szechwan because no (not enough) threat from Japanese air in Kwangsi

    • UK 2FTR + 2INF in London and executed ‘Taranto’, including the STR from London. No axis scramblers made the Brit wondering why…

    • India -> Burmastack, bought 1 trs + 2inf + 1art. Blocked a possible invasion of Burma, took Sumatra and retreated Malayan forces into Shan-State

    • Italy killed the French Navy and took Southern Fr. Massed in Tobruk. All air into Hamburg

    • ANZ built 3 inf, took Java. Normally I’d go for NG if I anticipate a J2 DOW but we agreed taking Java is pretty common

    • FRA died in his sleep. Moved its units in the Med: 2 inf to Morocco for US TRS and 1 inf each into Trans Jordan and Libya

    Round 2:

    • GE bought 10 TRS! Moved units in for Sea Lion and took Normandy and Greece. SBR AB and IC in London

    • RU bought all fast units and moved forward to threaten Eastern Europe and Finland. Massed Siberians in Buryatia

    • JA continued to rape China, did not dare to enter Russia. Still refrained from attacking Wallies to prevent early US entry in Europe

    • USA. Shocked by the German TRS: bought a STR and CV with planes and some load for TRS

    • CH reopened Burma-road and had to pull back. Lots of Japanese INF coming too close for comfort with air support

    • UK bought 9 inf after removing damage from IC. Left AB damaged since the Italian airforce was in position to SBR it again anyway

    • India bought INF + ART. No more smart buys like TRS etc. Took Celebes and moved Malayan forces into Burmastack. Retreated fleet into Calcutta since no more blockers were needed

    • Italy bought a FTR + mech, reinforced Africa, moved into Alexandria and killed remnants of the RN

    • ANZAC bought 3 inf and moved into New Guinea

    • FR… moved into Egypt

    Round 3:
    Saw the fall of London and the DOW from Japan, taking all of the DEI, leaving 4 TRS unprotected.
    Italy was not (yet) strong enough to take Egypt (didnt dare to build TRS since the US moved into Gibraltar). Germany took London with 1 tank. 2TAC, 4FTR and 2STR also survived.
    Russia was able to take Finland, Poland and Rumania but the Germans had a strong enough stack defending Hungaria. It could not have been taken (unless Finland was left alone, so I consider that a mistake from my part).
    The USA was very heavily equipped with aircraft and warships (2 STR in Ireland, 3full CV, 3CA, 1BB, 3DD. this includes British and French leftovers), but low on TRS + load. USA judged the german TRS had to be sunk no matter what. Since Germany could build a CV in Normandy and/or an AB for scramblers, even in addition to Italian scramblers from London, heavy air and warship investments were made.

    Round 4:
    All this resulted in USA being way too strong for Germany to hold London (USA now also has 8TRS + load in Gibraltar), so the Luftwaffe holding it will need to retreat G5 or be sacced. The German TRS were sunk. Russia and Germany are engaged in a series of ‘border wars’ over Poland and Rumania. Both armies are too strong for each other for a direct attack so this continues untill the Luftwaffe returns, at which point Russia must back off 1 or two territories.
    Italy took Egypt IT4 and its strength is equal to the leftovers from the UK in Africa + Middle East combined.

    USA invested very heavily into the Pacific from A4 and on, to prevent Hawai from falling right after India. Hawai now has 1INF, 4FTR, 5SUB, 5DD, 1CA, 2CV(2FTR+2TAC). This includes ANZAC ships as well. Japan has built 4 ICs in Asia and is in position to take all of China/India and move into Russia… IF she continues to produce mech and ARM in Asia, otherwise the Chinese + UK + Rus can perfectly stall the Japanese offensive here. The IJN is scattered around the DEI but 100% intact due to a sacrifice from the Prince of whales and her escorts, sinking 4 Japanese TRS.
    Japan has to decide one or the other: wipe Mainland asia OR (try) to take Hawai.

    How to proceed from here?!
    I have some ideas but I feel the allies can use some help from the forum as the situation is unknown to me.
    I am anticipating the Italians will either try to help Germany against Russia or build an IC in Egypt and fight the UK in Africa. The first strategy will result in a quick removal of Italy from Africa and the Med, while the latter sees a prolonged and heavy fight over Africa. Italy will loose that fight but it keeps London empty for some 4, 5 turns…
    What I am particulairly unsure about, is the fact that once the Luftwaffe returns to Hamburg, the Russians will be forced to retreat but I am hoping this retreat will be stopped once the fight gets closer to Moskou.

    Any thoughts on how to proceed from here with the Allies (or Axis if you prefer so ;-))?

  • I was surprised that they actually got London on the first try (LOL) after the UK was beefed up so much in this edition (units and AAA guns), but as you know there was a cost, and they were left with no ground units to speak of in London to defend.

    The Allies are in great position IMO, and The Red Bear will eventually be knocking on the door as the other allies start to redirect Germany’s forces. Sounds like the Reds already have a couple axis/pro axis territories for their 3 IPC NO bonus, and will work to gain more. Germany is loosing the income battle in Eastern Europe, and Scandinavia with Finland gone and Norway about to be taken by the allies. The question is which ally gets Norway, US to build an IC, or Russia for the extra income? Should the US go after Italy in the Med/Africa, or just start making landings in Norway, and Europe to pull the German forces away from the Russians (probably the later, to keep squeezing the Germans).

    It sounds like the Japanese Navy is a little spread out and might take a turn or so to mount an offensive on Hawaii, at which point it would be hard pressed to take it, or be able to hold it for a full turn with the US building heavily in the Pacific the last couple turns (w/Anzac support). The US will also start chipping away at the vast Japanese Empire as it is spread out and hard to protect. If the Japanese feel they could pull off a Pacific win by taking Hawaii, they should probably go for it because it may be the only way for the axis to win (time isn’t on their side).

    The Germans are going to feel the squeeze, but can they defend well enough (w/Italian help) for Italy/Japan to make a difference in overall income in Africa/Mid East/China? Italy should probably continue to work on Africa to stunt the UK recovery (can Japan spare some navy and transport units to Africa to help). With India in Japanese hands, they could migrate into the Mid East, maybe even Africa to draw some of the Russian mob (while defending against US advancements?).

    Keep us posted WB

  • Thanks for the input WB!

    Yeah usually London can hold but my friend and I were curious about the chances for a ‘surprise’ from Germany so I deliberately did not build more in London and/or Refrained from ‘Taranto’ in order to move the mediterranean UK-forces towards London…

    A little piece of Info I forgot: INDIA took back Java UK4, so that one has to be taken care of as well. If Japan ignores it, that is 9 IPCs per turn she misses.

    As for your question:
    Japan has 2 TRS left in Phil and has built 2 more in Japan itself. They can retake Java but I think they cannot afford to loose more TRS, so they must be protected since there is still 3 air in Calcutta, and 2 subs (out of Japanese DD-range) in NZ and Sydney with 4 FTR in Queensland.
    The existing IJN needs 4 turns to reach Hawai (or 3 if they do not retake Java/retake Java and accept another 2 TRS loss).
    Taking India will take 3 turns for Japan if producing at least 9 more mech (and this leaves China still able to survive). Once India is about to fall I am going to retreat its rather large army into the med to join with the african veterans. I am thinking to build an IC in Persia UK6 and Italy must build one in Egypt if she wants to contest the UK in Afrika so there will be 3 IC for the UK in Africa/med…

    I am anticipating heavy USA production in the PAC from now on. A5 at least 100% and after that, depends on what the Japs do. I am also thinking to return some ships to the Pacific once London is secure. I am thinking about the BB and 3CA. Gradually, because a strong task force is needed to keep an allied presence in the Med.

    I’ll gladly keep you posted but the game will be continued after some months I guess… So it may take some time ;-).

  • This is pretty awesome. Although i think your game will show how a sea-lion play for the Axis is kinda weak. You should also record your turn 3 positions, so you can start fresh games with France and London already captured.

    As for strategies.

    Russia could try for some very interesting tactics, like moving through the Mid-East, pick up the extra INF at Persia, and move onto India. This would free up strain on the U.S, and it would allow them to throw a bit more money around.

    Or Russia could just go hard on Germany. Russia (from what you describe) should have around 50ish IPCs. Which should be enough to kill off Germany, as long as U.S.A pitches in.

    Russia should get Norway. Troops from a U.S.A IC would take 6 turns to reach Berlin, and multinational forces don’t work to well anyway.

    As for U.K, well, all they can and should do is build as much as they can in South Africa to stop Italy from becoming a monster.

    China just needs to live. Otherwise, Japan might get board and will probably try to drill into Russia’s behind, or through Siberia.

    ANZACs should probably try annoying Japan by fortifying any of the DEI. Other than that, make sure to keep an eye-out if Japan decides to switch route and take Sydney instead.

    U.S.A should go towards Germany a little. But mostly towards Japan.

    As for the Axis.

    Germany will probably try to survive long enough for Japan to win, and for Italy to do something. But they will die because their 30ish IPCs will not sustain them against Russia, and landings in Normandy/Belgium.

    I’m not entirely sure how fast Italy’s going in Africa, but whatever speed, they need to be slowed down. U.K should just build troops in South Africa. That should keep them busy.

    Japan is the real enemy. U.S.A should just keep ferrying troops into Hawaii. Then into Sydney, you never know.

    All the Allies really need to do is choose to go hard Germany, or hard Japan.

  • Thanks Bean!

    What do you think about an extra IC for the UK? I am thinking to put one in Persia. Otherwise, with only SA producing, UK can only stall Italy but not drive it out of Africa and… they… must… be… destroyed :evil:.

  • If the U.K can support another IC, then go ahead! Just make sure that IC doesn’t fall into Japanese hands.

    Holding off Japan and Italy from Russia would (for me) be the main goal. Once Berlin falls, so many IPCs can be redirected towards Japan.

    And really, the U.S should easily be able to hold Hawaii and Sydney until you can kill Germany.

  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator


    Thanks Bean!

    What do you think about an extra IC for the UK? I am thinking to put one in Persia. Otherwise, with only SA producing, UK can only stall Italy but not drive it out of Africa and… they… must… be… destroyed :evil:.

    Nice try Froggie!
    It is I Il Duce and you will never have our Empire!

    I think Italy is key to Victory in Europe, so the Med must always be the main battleground. As a minor whinge, I really think Italy’s NOs should have been addressed long ago. Making more than the UK is ridiculous.

    Excuse the highjack, but being Italian, I love to play Global. as I did Anniversary, as Italy is represented.
    You a fan of Allo Allo too? UK comedies of the last 30 years have been so good. I love Blackadder the best.

  • I am no froggie!
    I am more of a lobster that barely escaped from being cooked ;-).

    'Allo 'allo used to be a favorite some time ago. Used to watch it every time I just pissed by ze television  :-D.

    I agree Italy is given way too much economic power in this game (and many others). Probably just to give the Italian player a chance to shine.

  • Customizer

    Yeah, there is a point in the game where Italy’s income is more from NOs than from territorial income which seems kind of silly. On the other hand, if Italy is to have a chance at growing much, they very much need that income or they can’t afford to put the types of units needed.

    I find this experiment interesting, the almost deliberate allowing of Sealion. It looks to me like you have encountered the same problem for Germany that I tend to find when going for Sealion: It takes too many resources by Germany and allows Russia to get too strong in the east.
    It’s one thing if Germany advances into Russia and the Russians are delaying the German capture of Moscow by trading territories back and forth IN Russia. But when they are trading territories back and forth on the German/Russian border, that is really bad for Germany especially if the US has enough to take London back. Then all of that spent in taking London is almost a total waste.
    However, I guess it does give Italy some breathing room and if the US is liberating London, then they aren’t sacking Rome at least for 2 - 3 turns afterward. If the US is now putting enough in the Pacific to at least contain the Japanese and keep them from getting too big, barring any stupid mistakes it sounds like the Allies will eventually pull this one off.
    With the latest Global setup, I just think Germany taking London, at least before they finish Russia, is in most cases a better chance for an Allied victory. Of course there are many factors; bad dice, foolish blunders, poor planning that can change any game, but overall I think the Axis has a better time taking Moscow first, then going after London.

  • Its funny. It was so easy in the 1st edition to sea lion, you just build some transports and attacked ASAP. But now its really difficult.

    The biggest problem about balancing Sea-lion, was that you had to make Britain weak enough for a sea-lion.
    But a weak Britain made it hard to help Russia during Barbarossa.

    Then Britain was made strong. So that Germany will almost always go Barbarossa, while Britain tries to help Russia.

    I think people should create custom start up scenarios where sea lion has already successes, but still give Germany a chance with Russia.

  • Customizer

    A scenario where Germany already has London? Well, they would already have France too, right? But still be strong on the eastern front? This sounds like an “Axis nearly sure to win” scenario.

  • @knp7765:

    A scenario where Germany already has London? Well, they would already have France too, right? But still be strong on the eastern front? This sounds like an “Axis nearly sure to win” scenario.

    Nah, kinda as if the game had already progressed about 3 turns in after a successful sea-lion

    Germany gets London, Scotland, France, Normandy
    Also would have quite the transport fleet
    A carrier
    A Tank or 2 on London
    MUCH less units on the Eastern front

    Italy would have Southern France, Yugoslavia, and Greece

    Russia would have A LOT of units gathered up in East Poland

    That sorta thing.

  • Customizer

    Ah, that sounds pretty much like most post-Sealion games to me. And in those games, Russia just has a good old time invading German space.

  • I could share (a piece of) the excel sheet my opponent made of our situation (since we had to break up our game we recorded it in excel) if you’d be interested.

    But then you’d have a starting point in turn 5 (GE), Germany lost its transports and a portion of its Luftwaffe, has 3 inf + the luftwaffe + 1tank in London/Scotland and is about to loose London to the USA.

    In the east, Russia occupies Rumania in force (and cannot be thrown out) and Poland with a screening force. Germany cannot march forward because the Russian counterattack strength is too high. It was too low however to attack the current German stack in Hungary. Likewise, if Germany moves all its new buys (with 88 IPCs after plundering London) into Hungary, Iwan most likely will have to pull back since the Luftwaffe also returns…

    It is in my eyes one of the good results Germany and Italy can get out of a ‘surprise’ attack on London that had no visible preparations (other than buying 10 TRS GE2), and thus facing an equally unprepared UK (if the UK does prepare -UK1 this will be visible-, Germany can just continue with a G3 barbarossa after having put the UK behind 1 tempo). The only thing that Germany might want to vary is the position of the Luftwaffe, which will also alter the positioning of the Red Army (probably eastern Poland instead of Rumania) and the USA liberating London 1 turn earlier (US4).

  • Customizer

    So do you plan to fight it out with the Yanks for London, or pull out your Luftwaffe and just let it go?
    I think you said before that the USA has a pretty large invasion force, 7 or 8 transports full? Plus several carriers loaded with planes. If you decided to stick it out, you could cost the Americans dearly, but would probably still lose London and all of your Luftwaffe to boot. I imagine you will need those planes to scare off the Red Army.
    Since you lost the transports, the tank and men in England are pretty much doomed anyway. Personally, I would build 3 more defensive units in London, 3 infantry or maybe even 3 tanks for a little extra punch against the Americans if you can afford it, pull your planes out and let the Yanks just have at it.
    One good thing is if they are busy liberating London, they aren’t sacking Rome and probably won’t be in position to for a couple of more rounds. That gives Italy a little more breathing space to possibly expand in Africa and build up their own defenses.
    Put maximum men in your coastal French factories, land fighters at the Airbase in W Germany for scramble plus extra troops there and try to protect Denmark. You don’t want that nasty US fleet liberating London then slipping through to attack Berlin.
    What is the situation up north with Finland and Norway? Are the Russians threatening there? Or did they concentrate all of their force in Eastern Europe?

  • Hi knp,

    FYI: I play the allies (cool, isn’t it?). And I deliberately gave away London on my opponent’s request (he judged the UK preparations too strong for a ‘surprise’ so we reverted some UK-moves) just to see how the aftermath would develop, out of pure curiosity.

    So, I cannot answer what I would do with ‘my’ Luftwaffe ;-), but I think my opponent will HAVE to pull them out. They will all be destroyed otherwise. And the Luftwaffe is the ONLY thing at the moment that can still give worries to the Russians. Any more smart ship-building or aircraft-losses from Germany will ensure the Red Army plundering Berlin.

    Troop comparison for the Battle of London if the Luftwaffe defends it:

    • Germany/Italy (absolute maximum)
      4ARM + 3INF + 4STR + 2TAC + 7FTR (entire Luftwaffe + all of the RAI) = 20Units, 56Combat Factors

    • USA:
      9INF + 4MECH +2ART + 1ARM + 3FTR + 3TAC + 1BB + 3CA = 22Units (navy excluded), 56CF (navy included).

    Predicting the outcome of this battle (trying to) using LowLuck: London will be liberated, costing Germany and Italy their entire airforce.
    The price for the USA is high (anywhere between 1 and 5 units surviving, one of them must be a land unit) but as I anticipate, with the entire Luftwaffe and RAI gone, Russia will just be in Berlin in a couple of turns. Even more so because Germany bought 3 ARM in London, an assest that also is not assigned toward fighting Russians… So even if London will not be liberated (very bad dicing), Russia will end up in Berlin and at that point it doesnt even matter anymore how well Italy is doing in Africa. UK gone, Germany gone. Heck, at that point even the Russians can liberate London (or will they spread communism there :-D).

    Your imagination works correctly ;-).

    Situation in Finland and Norway:
    Germany has retreated into Norway with 7INF. Russia took Finland with 1 INF and has 5INF + 2ART in Karelia.
    I consider this a mistake on my part because with those INF and ART Russia would have been able to kill the current German army in Hungary, which is now preventing the Russians from spreading communism into all of the Balkans, Hungary and Greater Southern Germany (let alone threatening North Italy). But alas, this is all in the game so to say.
    Anyway, Norway will fall T2, either at the hands of the USA or the Red Army (I think I will march the slow units into Leningrad and replace them with fast units (Russia has built almost solely ARM/MECH and 3 FTR from Ru2 and on)…

  • Customizer

    Oh, you are the Allies. And here I was telling you how to beat yourself, hee hee hee. Sorry about that. I usually tend to play the Axis so in most cases I tend to look at the game with an “Axis” state of mind.
    As Russia, you should definitely grab Norway. With the large US fleet there and London getting liberated, it’s very doubtful Germany will be putting any more boats in the water, particularly defenseless transports, so once Russia grabs Norway, it’s pretty much permanently Russian. After that you can retreat any units back through Leningrad for the final push on Berlin. Yeah, it will take a while for them to get there, but they might be of some help if Germany puts up a stubborn defense.
    As for the Eastern Front, it sounds like Russia has a pretty good force along there so I would bide my time a little. Germany has the British treasury to spend now but they are going to start losing money pretty soon (England, Norway plus the NO for Sweeden once Norway falls). You already have Romania so that’s an extra 6 points to you per round and minus 3 for Germany. Once the US retakes London, and assuming Germany recalls the Luftwaffe it should be fairly easy leaving the US a fair amount left, I would think the US would want to start hitting Germany in Normandy, Holland and/or Denmark, depending on how strong the German defenses are. Plus I think you said Japan did NOT invade Russia in the east so Russia is not losing any of her IPCs.
    Do you plan to liberate Paris if US troops successfully land in Normandy or Holland? When I have played the US, I usually will leave Paris sit so I can use those factories for a while. At least until I have an Axis factory to use, like W Germany or N Italy.
    A little trick I have learned when playing Germany is to leave Paris almost undefended, maybe 1 or 2 guys there, but stack up W Germany and Berlin with a strong force. As Germany, I WANT the Allies to liberate Paris.
    1 > All French territories that were captured by Axis then recaptured by Allies immediately revert to French control. So that means that the other Allies incomes might go down a little bit which might help.
    2 > On France’s next turn, they get to collect money, possibly as much as 19 IPCs depending on the status of places like Syria and French Indo China. At the very least, they will get 15-16 IPCs. Even with the 12 IPCs of new French units, whatever US units survived the liberation and possible UK units sent in to back them up, I will usually have a strong enough force in W Germany and Berlin to take it back, thus gaining some extra cash and destroying a significant amount of Allied units, especially if UK landed planes there as a backup. It’s usually harder for the UK to replace planes than it is for Germany and while it’s easy enough for the US to replace planes, it will take them a while to get over from the US. If necessary, I will order Italy to throw anything it has that can reach Paris in a suicide attack to soften the Allies up a little for the German attack.
    3 > If the Allies DO NOT liberate Paris but instead keep using the French factories in Normandy and/or Southern France, then they also have to take Holland and/or N Italy and work them selves around those territories to get at W Germany. We could exchange Holland and N Italy several times before they actually threaten W Germany. Meanwhile, I still get the 4 IPCs for Paris with very little invested there.
    It’s not a perfect plan, no plan is totally perfect, but it could create just enough of a delay on the Western Allies for Germany to take Moscow in the east. However in your situation, since Germany is no where near Moscow and the Russians are within sight of the Reichstag, perhaps a liberated Paris might be a good thing. As the USA, I would still prefer to have a European factory so all of my men and equipment doesn’t have to keep being ferried across the Atlantic. Also, if Germany does like I do and has a strong force in W Germany, you don’t want to liberate Paris just yet and give the Germans that extra cash. Then again, if Germany expends troops and material to retaking Paris, that is less defense against the Russians. Yeah, communism may be spread further, but the ultimate defeat of the Nazis is the prime goal now.

  • @knp7765:

    As Russia, you should definitely grab Norway. With the large US fleet there and London getting liberated, it’s very doubtful Germany will be putting any more boats in the water (…)

    I agree completely. I want Norway out of the way first round after London is liberated, just to rid Germany of another 8 IPCs. If the Germans position themselves in Finland however, USA will take Norway instead. Otherwise Germany can enjoy those 8IPCs one more turn.


    (…)Do you plan to liberate Paris if US troops successfully land in Normandy or Holland? (…)

    I usually wait to liberate Paris for the exact same reasons as you mentioned. It is a matter of being able to hold it or not. Trading it back and forth with Germany is often unacceptable (but not always), especially if the USA has to spend a lot in the Pacific (sometimes I am forced to invest near 100% in the Pacific with the USA from US7 and onwards because the Japs have taken Calcutta and are investing near 100% on also getting Hawai). For that reason I keep my men and TRS next to each other in Gibraltar, London, Normandy or wherever they are safe while being the most aggressive.

    In this particular situation however, it remains to be seen. If taking Paris means the fall of Berlin in a series of falling dominoes then taking Paris it is!

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