I’m fairly sure all scrambles are declared before any combat is rolled, but I could be wrong.
That said, I agree with Uncrustable; Germany can help Italy get on its legs in other ways while buffing itself up too.
You are right. The attacker has to make all combat moves first and declare that he is done. Then, before any dice are rolled, the defender decides whether or not to scramble.
This sounds like an interesting idea and if done properly, it would set UK back a lot. Most of the Royal Navy in the Med and Atlantic would be gone and nearly all the RAF too. UK would be left very weak against Italy in Africa and Germany for a possible Sealion.
However, I also agree this could leave Germany very unprepared against Russia. Germany may get London just to end up falling before the Bolshevik Hoards.
Might just be me, but unless Germany takes France after Italy fails (due to British planes)cant the allies then do some smart play and prevent Italy from advancing into Africa at all?
check:
Germany - does stuff, weakens France, takes Normandy and south France
Britain - Sees Germany wants Italy to take France, Sends 5 Fighters and 1 Tac. Moves Fighter from Alexandria to Algeria
Italy - Attacks France, Fails (barely)
France - builds Infantry, Move 3 African Infantry to stack with British Fighter
Germany - Germany must now take France, Or let Italy suffer. Lets assume they let Italy suffer.
U.S.A - sees a massive weakness in south Europe. Builds Naval base in sea zone 89, build some transports and blokes with guns
Britain - Sends 3 Fighters to France
Italy - Italy attacks France and takes it, losing almost everything. Collects big income
Well yay, the Axis FINALLY get Italy to take France. However, Africa has not received any reinforcements of any sort as of yet.
And smart play on the allies part should mean America is in sea zone 91 with a nice big fleet, ready to take Italy/Africa.
And there’s nothing Italy can do about it.
TL:DR Unless Germany takes France G2 then Africa WILL be allied, and Italy WILL be screwed.
Don’t forget the French fighter. This is actually listed in Cow’s Germany handbook under the name “Gambit play”.
We’ve had a few games that Germany ended up weakening Paris for Italy to take. It wasn’t necessarily planed that way (the first time) but after the second round of attack the French were down to just a couple units so the Germans with-drew back to Northern Italy (mech/tanks went that way). This gets surviving German units heading to Russia faster BTW. In our games most of Italy’s navy gets wiped on UK1 so the 19 IPCs comes in handy for the re-build (they will need less German help). The German air force will generally help to clear the Med or reinforce Italian advances for the first couple turns (a couple U-boats dropped off S France G2 if UK has no destroyers also comes in handy).
I have to say that in none of those games did the UK stack Paris w/ftrs to stop Italy from getting it. If so as the Axis I wouldn’t mind double hitting it w/Italy & Germany to crush the RAF. Other pros for the axis would be that the Italian navy wouldn’t get hit, and those dead UK ftrs aren’t going to end up in Moscow.
So the basic thought of this idea is simple if you look to more then one turn a head.
For one it’s safe to say that anyone playing as Germany will Clear out the Atlantic as best you can. I personally like to clear out the two destroyers and transports as manditory, and the English Channel and off Scotland. Then do the standees opening kvements and attacks I like to take Southern France cause it gives me the ability to have a port as Germany in the meditranian.
So why leave France to Italy well I think of it as a Baiting the allies into helping France for a futile cause. Say Britian flys in all the planes to France you Possably bought France one turn but lost all of you Airforce leaving England with no navy and no Airforce and Italy can mop up what’s left in the Meditranian and the Atlantic is empty
While it’s allways benifital to help Germany by giving France you can allways stall and just do a G3 into Russia no big deal and this gives Italy a soild 3 rounds to build up in the meditranian. And also push into the middle east getting into Russia quicker and threating Calcuta also.
While yes America can eventually build up normaly by round 5-6 they can start to push back at Germany but by then it maybe to late England is cut out and cripples to much
Also the whole Sealion can ofcorse work but any smart player can see if your telegraphing by your purchases so that’s moot and personally there’s better buys tha can be better suited then that if your going for Russia and just interceding to cripple England also if England dose send it’s Airforce to France all the more for me to Stratigic Bomb them to death cause they cant scramble any way you look at it it’s win / win! :)
So the basic thought of this idea is simple if you look to more then one turn a head.
For one it’s safe to say that anyone playing as Germany will Clear out the Atlantic as best you can. I personally like to clear out the two destroyers and transports as manditory, and the English Channel and off Scotland. Then do the standees opening kvements and attacks I like to take Southern France cause it gives me the ability to have a port as Germany in the meditranian.
So why leave France to Italy well I think of it as a Baiting the allies into helping France for a futile cause. Say Britian flys in all the planes to France you Possably bought France one turn but lost all of you Airforce leaving England with no navy and no Airforce and Italy can mop up what’s left in the Meditranian and the Atlantic is empty
While it’s allways benifital to help Germany by giving France you can allways stall and just do a G3 into Russia no big deal and this gives Italy a soild 3 rounds to build up in the meditranian. And also push into the middle east getting into Russia quicker and threating Calcuta also.
While yes America can eventually build up normaly by round 5-6 they can start to push back at Germany but by then it maybe to late England is cut out and cripples to much
Also the whole Sealion can ofcorse work but any smart player can see if your telegraphing by your purchases so that’s moot and personally there’s better buys tha can be better suited then that if your going for Russia and just interceding to cripple England also if England dose send it’s Airforce to France all the more for me to Stratigic Bomb them to death cause they cant scramble any way you look at it it’s win / win! :)
England is always crippled. Besides, all they can ever do is build fighters because any navy will immediately get obliterated by Germany.
Any extra $$$ Italy gets is useless, because they would just be replacing everything they sacrificed.
When Britain sends those planes to France, Italy is immediately prevented from taking France I1. Most of the time, they will lose.
And if America threatens an Italian crush from Gibraltar, then Italy will never be able to land anything in Africa (unless they suicide for it).
Better question:
Whats the point of Italy taking France, all the extra $$$ goes towards replenishing loses…
You’ve clearly missed Everything that was writin how and when will America crush Italy? When they have to split there money with West and East what round 6? By then it’s to late and Russia will fall what all that extra income …
Africa falls fast with that Egypt and then the Middle East.not only that at most Germany and Italy has 4 rounds to Prepare for any American counter and 9/10 al America dose is build up cause it can’t match the German Airforce and Italian wall built up…
And I would want England to place it’s Entriee Airforce in one spot to obliterate Not only that it dosnt have the money to bounce back and just rebuilt an Airforce while sitting idle so it has other things to buy and do not only that it leaves England undefended further doing Stratigic bombing raids and for atlest 2 rounds Convoy raids
So best of luck thinking America can just rush in think its gonna do much when by roud 5 anything done is basicaly Moot
You’ve clearly missed Everything that was writin how and when will America crush Italy? When they have to split there money with West and East what round 6? By then it’s to late and Russia will fall what all that extra income …
Africa falls fast with that Egypt and then the Middle East.not only that at most Germany and Italy has 4 rounds to Prepare for any American counter and 9/10 al America dose is build up cause it can’t match the German Airforce and Italian wall built up…
And I would want England to place it’s Entriee Airforce in one spot to obliterate Not only that it dosnt have the money to bounce back and just rebuilt an Airforce while sitting idle so it has other things to buy and do not only that it leaves England undefended further doing Stratigic bombing raids and for atlest 2 rounds Convoy raids
So best of luck thinking America can just rush in think its gonna do much when by roud 5 anything done is basicaly Moot
I never said anything about America crushing/taking Italy.
All America needs is 3-5 transports full of blokes with guns West of Gibraltar, and from their they can liberate U.K from any sea lion, and prevent Italy from doing anything in Africa.
Because once America threatens Italy with transports and men in sea zone 89 after turn 2, Italy ‘should’ realize that anything but lots of land units is gonna get them killed.
So i don’t see Italy getting enough units into Africa any time soon.
Therefore i ALSO don’t see Africa ‘going down fast’.
TL:DR U.S.A can keep Italy Landlocked for 14 IPCs a turn.
There is no way Italy gets into Africa with this strategy.
First it delays the axis for an entire turn, and they do not even stand to benefit from it.
With zero sealion threat Britain can build an IC in Egypt turn one.
With this you cannot afford USA entering early, forcing japan to wait to Dow, meaning both Britain and ANZAC get rich in the pacific.
Britain PAC could then fly its planes from India to Egypt, get an airbase there and Africa is secure for the entire game.
What you really fail to realize is this would delay the Germans not one turn, but 2 entire turns as they are going to need a good amount to take France turn 2.
For one it’s safe to say that anyone playing as Germany will Clear out the Atlantic as best you can. I personally like to clear out the two destroyers and transports as manditory, and the English Channel and off Scotland. Then do the standees opening kvements and attacks I like to take Southern France cause it gives me the ability to have a port as Germany in the meditranian.
This is not possible barring really lucky dice.
The most standard play is taking out English Channel, Scotland an transport off Canada. Leaving the gib cruiser and 109 transport.
During Britain’s turn Italy cannot scramble against Taranto, as losing fighters would mean Britain needs less to defend France meaning less air lost for Britain.
Taranto would be an interesting move in this situation. Send carrier, cruiser, tac from z98, Malta fighter, and bomber. Sink z96 with destroyer and z91 cruiser. That’s a weak Tarant raid but like uncrustable said, they really can’t scramble because they need to save those planes for France. So you sacrifice the carrier to take out the big ships and land the 3 planes in France.
@Uncrustable:
There is no way Italy gets into Africa with this strategy.
First it delays the axis for an entire turn, and they do not even stand to benefit from it.
With zero sealion threat Britain can build an IC in Egypt turn one.
With this you cannot afford USA entering early, forcing japan to wait to Dow, meaning both Britain and ANZAC get rich in the pacific.
Britain PAC could then fly its planes from India to Egypt, get an airbase there and Africa is secure for the entire game.What you really fail to realize is this would delay the Germans not one turn, but 2 entire turns as they are going to need a good amount to take France turn 2.
No I’m allways able to manage to take out all the ships minus the one cruser in the Atlantic. I’m not sure how your set up is in a open move but I easily am able to clear out the Atlantic of English ships minus that one cruser
Also in what way will it prevent me from going into Africa as Italy I start with 3 transports and 3 separate navy’s there and England goes before Italy it’s not hard to see what your going to do I’ve played this out an take Egypt in Italy turn 2 with the left over battleship crusers and sub detroryer and no planes left to defend them it’s easy to sweep that aside and quickly dump off 1 tank and 3 men to North AfricaThe Axis don’t loose any turns if it
Meens crippling the English to the point where they can’t do anything and everything else gos as planedThe pacific is still a side show and nothing changes so what if they get the money islands there’s no real threat with ships minus the American threat which is still at minimum 1-2 turns away and if your dumb enough to fly your planes from Calcuta that leaves me open to just swoop in and take it over
For one it’s safe to say that anyone playing as Germany will Clear out the Atlantic as best you can. I personally like to clear out the two destroyers and transports as manditory, and the English Channel and off Scotland. Then do the standees opening kvements and attacks I like to take Southern France cause it gives me the ability to have a port as Germany in the meditranian.
This is not possible barring really lucky dice.
The most standard play is taking out English Channel, Scotland an transport off Canada. Leaving the gib cruiser and 109 transport.During Britain’s turn Italy cannot scramble against Taranto, as losing fighters would mean Britain needs less to defend France meaning less air lost for Britain.
Not to mention most bids feature a Brit sub in 98
@Uncrustable:
There is no way Italy gets into Africa with this strategy.
First it delays the axis for an entire turn, and they do not even stand to benefit from it.
With zero sealion threat Britain can build an IC in Egypt turn one.
With this you cannot afford USA entering early, forcing japan to wait to Dow, meaning both Britain and ANZAC get rich in the pacific.
Britain PAC could then fly its planes from India to Egypt, get an airbase there and Africa is secure for the entire game.What you really fail to realize is this would delay the Germans not one turn, but 2 entire turns as they are going to need a good amount to take France turn 2.
No I’m allways able to manage to take out all the ships minus the one cruser in the Atlantic. I’m not sure how your set up is in a open move but I easily am able to clear out the Atlantic of English ships minus that one cruser
Also in what way will it prevent me from going into Africa as Italy I start with 3 transports and 3 separate navy’s there and England goes before Italy it’s not hard to see what your going to do I’ve played this out an take Egypt in Italy turn 2 with the left over battleship crusers and sub detroryer and no planes left to defend them it’s easy to sweep that aside and quickly dump off 1 tank and 3 men to North AfricaSweet! U.S.A gets North/South Italy.
The Axis don’t loose any turns if it
Meens crippling the English to the point where they can’t do anything and everything else gos as planedThe English are always crippled. If England and France are able to stall for 2 turns then theve already done their job, WAY better than normal.
The pacific is still a side show and nothing changes so what if they get the money islands there’s no real threat with ships minus the American threat which is still at minimum 1-2 turns away and if your dumb enough to fly your planes from Calcuta that leaves me open to just swoop in and take it over
Those planes can be replaced 'cause. You know. $$$ islands.
For one it’s safe to say that anyone playing as Germany will Clear out the Atlantic as best you can. I personally like to clear out the two destroyers and transports as manditory, and the English Channel and off Scotland. Then do the standees opening kvements and attacks I like to take Southern France cause it gives me the ability to have a port as Germany in the meditranian.
This is not possible barring really lucky dice.
The most standard play is taking out English Channel, Scotland an transport off Canada. Leaving the gib cruiser and 109 transport.During Britain’s turn Italy cannot scramble against Taranto, as losing fighters would mean Britain needs less to defend France meaning less air lost for Britain.
I’d also like to point out that, if Calcutta does the three plane thing. Then your
-7 Infantry
-2 mechs
-1 tank
-1 Artillery
is not going to be enough to beat Egypt’s.
-4 Infantry
-2 Artillery
-1 Tank
-4 Fighters
And i doubt you would try to reinforce considering U.S.A is no doubt chillin’ West of gibrlaltor
Brits are going to back up France with RAF if France is still standing after G1, but no matter how many planes Britain sends France is going to fall. Now if Germany strafes France and leaves it to Italy then the Italians either lose a considerable number of forces or don’t take it at all and have to wait until I2. Either way this strategy is going to cost both sides much more money then if Germany takes it G1. The difference is that the Allies have the IPC advantage and can come back from losing its starting forces much more easily than the Axis can. Yes, this means Italy gets an extra 4 IPC and Germany can take out RN without UK scrambling and these are the definite pros to this strategy. But the fact of the matter is that this strategy means Italy is slow to take on Africa which is absolutely detrimental and even if Italy is making 4 extra IPC that is going to mean nothing If Britain takes the opportunity to destroy Italian North Africa. While subtle, Germany is also going to be able to make one less mech which might make all the difference when rushing Moscow. Germany is gonna suffer a loss of IPC for Italy which will not end up helping it’s ally much if at all. Seems like a loss for the Axis to me. I think it is a great idea for Germany to help Italy and while this was a cool plan to do that, it would be much easier and more practical if Germany took Yugo or southern France and pumped supplies to north Africa or just flew a few planes south to help it’s axis buddy. Anyways this is just my opinion and I stand to be proven wrong.
Brits are going to back up France with RAF if France is still standing after G1, but no matter how many planes Britain sends France is going to fall. Now if Germany strafes France and leaves it to Italy then the Italians either lose a considerable number of forces or don’t take it at all and have to wait until I2. Either way this strategy is going to cost both sides much more money then if Germany takes it G1. The difference is that the Allies have the IPC advantage and can come back from losing its starting forces much more easily than the Axis can. Yes, this means Italy gets an extra 4 IPC and Germany can take out RN without UK scrambling and these are the definite pros to this strategy. But the fact of the matter is that this strategy means Italy is slow to take on Africa which is absolutely detrimental and even if Italy is making 4 extra IPC that is going to mean nothing If Britain takes the opportunity to destroy Italian North Africa. While subtle, Germany is also going to be able to make one less mech which might make all the difference when rushing Moscow. Germany is gonna suffer a loss of IPC for Italy which will not end up helping it’s ally much if at all. Seems like a loss for the Axis to me. I think it is a great idea for Germany to help Italy and while this was a cool plan to do that, it would be much easier and more practical if Germany took Yugo or southern France and pumped supplies to north Africa or just flew a few planes south to help it’s axis buddy. Anyways this is just my opinion and I stand to be proven wrong.
its not just the 4 Ipcs that Italy gets it’s the 19 bounces from sacking France. Which helps bump up Italy bump up its navy and able to reinforce its African force and finsh off anything left in the meditranian
All this crap that te Americans push into the meditranian best of luck with that strat it dosnt happin all at once it takes atlest 4-5 rounds so please stop with that idea it dosnt work out and 9/10 America lands in Norway over anywhere else then maybe Normandy with England following up.
Realistically at the end of Italy’s turn 1 it secures France and gets a 19ipc boot added to the fact that most of its navy is there with atlest 2 transports with 3 infra try and 1 tank plus the force it has there
If you guys haven’t tried it feel free I take Egypt turn 2 and middle east by turn 3
By turn 3 America even if in the war by then just landed in Gibralter and if there smart wouldn’t push any further knowing there force isn’t built up and too weak to truly push anywhere
If you guys haven’t tried it feel free I take Egypt turn 2 and middle east by turn 3
how do you do this?
Re-read this blog and look at the map and if your Italy with 29ipcs at the start of turn 2 you tell me how with no English navy or Airforce in Africa to stop you.
I don’t doubt that you think you can do it. I was just asking you to clarify how its done. I am not being sarcastic; I would actually like to know a reliable way to get Egypt early on and hold it until Moscow falls. It’s not really clear from your posts above.
I am very confident that there is no guaranteed way for the Axis to capture Cairo in round 2. This can only happen if the Allied player is very inexperienced and/or gets extremely unlucky dice.
The UK can get the following units to Cairo before I2:
3 inf, 1 art, 1 mech starting Egypt units
2 inf, 1 art, 1 tank Alexandria
1 inf Sudan
1 inf, 1 aa gun from Malta via transport (assuming the UK sinks SZ96 on UK1)
2 land units from India (via transport starting in SZ39)
The 10 starting British planes (this would be super extreme and you’d need to pick up the Burma fighter with your carrier by moving them to SZ80 on UK1)
Planes mobilized in South Africa on UK1
If the UK buys a mIC in the first round, they could also mobilize 3 units directly to Egypt on UK2
Obviously, it would be extremely unusual and strategically suicidal to do all that, but you don’t need to do all of that to be safe.
Brits are going to back up France with RAF if France is still standing after G1, but no matter how many planes Britain sends France is going to fall. Now if Germany strafes France and leaves it to Italy then the Italians either lose a considerable number of forces or don’t take it at all and have to wait until I2. Either way this strategy is going to cost both sides much more money then if Germany takes it G1. The difference is that the Allies have the IPC advantage and can come back from losing its starting forces much more easily than the Axis can. Yes, this means Italy gets an extra 4 IPC and Germany can take out RN without UK scrambling and these are the definite pros to this strategy. But the fact of the matter is that this strategy means Italy is slow to take on Africa which is absolutely detrimental and even if Italy is making 4 extra IPC that is going to mean nothing If Britain takes the opportunity to destroy Italian North Africa. While subtle, Germany is also going to be able to make one less mech which might make all the difference when rushing Moscow. Germany is gonna suffer a loss of IPC for Italy which will not end up helping it’s ally much if at all. Seems like a loss for the Axis to me. I think it is a great idea for Germany to help Italy and while this was a cool plan to do that, it would be much easier and more practical if Germany took Yugo or southern France and pumped supplies to north Africa or just flew a few planes south to help it’s axis buddy. Anyways this is just my opinion and I stand to be proven wrong.
its not just the 4 Ipcs that Italy gets it’s the 19 bounces from sacking France. Which helps bump up Italy bump up its navy and able to reinforce its African force and finsh off anything left in the meditranian
All this crap that te Americans push into the meditranian best of luck with that strat it dosnt happin all at once it takes atlest 4-5 rounds so please stop with that idea it dosnt work out and 9/10 America lands in Norway over anywhere else then maybe Normandy with England following up.
Realistically at the end of Italy’s turn 1 it secures France and gets a 19ipc boot added to the fact that most of its navy is there with atlest 2 transports with 3 infra try and 1 tank plus the force it has there
If you guys haven’t tried it feel free I take Egypt turn 2 and middle east by turn 3
By turn 3 America even if in the war by then just landed in Gibralter and if there smart wouldn’t push any further knowing there force isn’t built up and too weak to truly push anywhere
If Britain stacks France then Italy cant take it round 1.
And if Italy is gonna go all out on Africa, then i dont see them taking it round 2 either. So unless Germany takes it on round 2 (which would render this strategy completely useless) then Italy wont take France round 2 either.
At this point France/Britain has stalled Germany/Italy for 3 rounds. You’ve already lost.
Re-read this blog and look at the map and if your Italy with 29ipcs at the start of turn 2 you tell me how with no English navy or Airforce in Africa to stop you.
Yea, but there’s U.S.A
TL:DR
If Axis want Italy taking France then Axis must choose 1 of the following:
-Lose Africa/Middle East
-Lose Italy
-Let Russia live
-Play full defensive in Europe (Axis lose)
