Italy in France??



  • So here’s my idea just a simple thought but, What if Germany simply weakens France to allow Italy to take it. So understandably now Germany is left with a bit less cash, here’s my thoughts Germany dose a G3 to Russia and builds up a bit more it dosnt loose half as much as it would by fully committing to France. Also now with this massive influx to Italy it truly helps put them on level with England to push then out of Africa fast and build up a decent navy and push into Middle East. Not only that but depending on o
    How it works out it cripples any allies in Africa and opens a front threw Africa cause once England is knocked out there I typically use them to defend Germany’s backside and keep building it’s navy now it won’t knock out America say round 5 but round 4 it can defently cripple or atlest keep them on guard. What’s your thoughts?



  • It doesn’t matter who takes France as long as Germany sends most of their air force to Africa until a time in which Italy can sustain itself.



  • No I don’t agree with sending my Airforce to Africe it puts your planes out of position for when you push into Russia. Italy dosnt have a lot to worry about in Africa and the Mediterranean only cause if they take the income from France they can built a bigger navy and put more boots on the ground in Africa faster making it very hard for te Allies to get there and bounce back. America won’t see Africa until turn 4 and England is in no position to truly help case G1 decamates there Navy. By the time it’s Round 4 Germany is pushing into Russia and Italy has a head start on holdin the shores and Pushing into Africa/Middle East also putting Preasuer possibly on Calcuta or the Caucasus


  • 2017 '16 '15 '14 '12

    The trouble with just strafing France is that UK can send a bunch of planes there to prevent Italy taking it, and then france gets to build a bunch of infantry.



  • Germany has plenty of time to clear the Med and get to Russia for G5, because they have more than enough land units for the first initial push into Russia on G3.



  • I don’t see it Englad has 1 plane in Scotland and 2 fighters in Londan 1 in Gabrilter and 1 in Malta and 1 bomber in Londan so that’s 1 bomber and 5 fighters Possably defending on a open France were Italy will be attacking with 2 infantry 2 artlity 1 tank 2 fighters and 1 bomber …. If Endland was that dumb to place all it’s fighters there I’d welcome to not only destroying it’s entry navy by Germany but then also the Airforce by Italy. Also England can’t then scramble to intercept the navel attacks so that wouldn’t be in England’s favor to place all it’s air in France. And no by G5 I’m fully commited to Russia and pushin to Moscow to really have the Resources to pull away and support something else unless it’s truly something obvious and capitalize or push in a different direction. Again I don’t really see how Italy taken France is a bad thing unless someone shows me otherwise.



  • @Whitshadw:

    Again I don’t really see how Italy taken France is a bad thing unless someone shows me otherwise.

    Everyone here has different opinions… it’s cool.



  • Opinions aside, lets look at this.
    Low Luck dice.
    Germany takes Normandy, South France, Yugoslavia and strafes France. (Leaving 1 French tank and 1 French fighter, retreating to W Germany)
    UK does not scramble any fighters to defend Royal Navy.
    UK lands 5 fighters, 1 tactical bomber and one bomber on France.

    Leaving the following battle:
    Italy attacks with: 2 inf, 2 art, 1 arm, 2 fig and 1 bomb
    French/UK defends with: 1 arm, 6 fig, 1 tac and 1 bomb

    This is a 100% battle in favor of the French.
    Italy attacks, French win with 3 British fighters remaining

    Even if you get lucky and only leave the French fighter on G1, its still 95% in favor of the French when Italy attacks.

    Unless i’m really missing something this move would almost always be a total disaster for the axis.



  • Oh I agree with you… We have a group of 10 people who rotate some can make it as others cant so we normaly have soild 5 people play all experianced with countless games user our belts were 30+ … To you all an idea of age and experience

    We don’t play low luck really just count up cost vs cost and see if it’s worth the attack 9/10 times planes do get scrambled or England is put in a position to atlest use there planes to attack some where also. I just see it highly unlikely that they would sacrifice all active planes in France the entire fbit of England would be lost in aircraft and to make matters worse they couldn’t attack the Italin Navy cause the counter would crush them.

    I suppose it’s a huge risk vs reward or something that Italins can Capitlize on a weaker Britsh player but if suppose the idea seems sound on why to do it

    also what tactical bomber? From where I only count 5 British fighters and 1 strategic bomber



  • Hit or miss.  If you plan for it in the overall, it can help out with an Italian push through Russia or into England/Africa.  England has to give up a ton of planes to protect it, and you could always take it over I2.  I’ve tried it, and while I liked the extra cash for Italy, I’d rather give it to Germany in the long run.

    also what tactical bomber?

    The tac on the carrier.



  • @Uncrustable:

    Opinions aside, lets look at this.
    Low Luck dice.
    Germany takes Normandy, South France, Yugoslavia and strafes France. (Leaving 1 French tank and 1 French fighter, retreating to W Germany)
    UK does not scramble any fighters to defend Royal Navy.
    UK lands 5 fighters, 1 tactical bomber and one bomber on France.

    Leaving the following battle:
    Italy attacks with: 2 inf, 2 art, 1 arm, 2 fig and 1 bomb
    French/UK defends with: 1 arm, 6 fig, 1 tac and 1 bomb

    This is a 100% battle in favor of the French.
    Italy attacks, French win with 3 British fighters remaining

    Even if you get lucky and only leave the French fighter on G1, its still 95% in favor of the French when Italy attacks.

    Unless i’m really missing something this move would almost always be a total disaster for the axis.

    Thanks… I didn’t have the time or energy to explain it in detail the way you did, so I copped out and blamed it on different opinions.



  • Your right I counted it.

    Truthfuly if England supported it to that length you bought France 1 round and canalized any offense that it had to give France 1 round and place what 5
    Men? At that point Germany would probably take it and in 2 rounds England has lost all of its
    navy and has absolutly no Airforce other way it’s a win / win for the axis

    While your right with Germany having extra income for sure for the push and built up. I was thinking if Italy had that extra cash no English Airforce
    Or navy Egypt would fall by round 2 and the Domino would insue

    I dunno  just thinking outside the box and allways love to leave people guessing



  • @Young:

    @Uncrustable:

    Opinions aside, lets look at this.
    Low Luck dice.
    Germany takes Normandy, South France, Yugoslavia and strafes France. (Leaving 1 French tank and 1 French fighter, retreating to W Germany)
    UK does not scramble any fighters to defend Royal Navy.
    UK lands 5 fighters, 1 tactical bomber and one bomber on France.

    Leaving the following battle:
    Italy attacks with: 2 inf, 2 art, 1 arm, 2 fig and 1 bomb
    French/UK defends with: 1 arm, 6 fig, 1 tac and 1 bomb

    This is a 100% battle in favor of the French.
    Italy attacks, French win with 3 British fighters remaining

    Even if you get lucky and only leave the French fighter on G1, its still 95% in favor of the French when Italy attacks.

    Unless i’m really missing something this move would almost always be a total disaster for the axis.

    Thanks… I didn’t have the time or energy to explain it in detail the way you did, so I copped out and blamed it on different opinions.

    Lol you didn’t need to spell anything out it’s on the board clear as day my question was essentially what’s the Pros vs Cons on doing such a move sure it helps the allies for one turn but them screwed them for 3 turns



  • No problem… another interesting question is, what would France do with the $19 if they had a chance to spend it?

    Knowing that France would surly fall in the next round no matter how many infantry I buy, I would probably use one of the minors to drop 3 French subs.



  • And which
    Minor would you take if Germany has Normandy and Southern France?
    With England sacrafcing all
    It’s air power for Paris leaves there navy weak and Frances navy is a push over even with 2 transports left ( counting the one off Malta dies with its destroyer) you can shift over 1 tank and 3 men with 2 transports to southern France. Again I don’t see how in the Lon run it would fail the axis? And more so screw the allies if they bate them selfs to send all there Air Force to a dieing cause?



  • @Whitshadw:

    And which
    Minor would you take if Germany has Normandy and Southern France?
    With England sacrafcing all
    It’s air power for Paris leaves there navy weak and Frances navy is a push over even with 2 transports left ( counting the one off Malta dies with its destroyer) you can shift over 1 tank and 3 men with 2 transports to southern France. Again I don’t see how in the Lon run it would fail the axis? And more so screw the allies if they bate them selfs to send all there Air Force to a dieing cause?

    Personally I wouldn’t stack France to save it. I don’t really care who takes France because if I’m the allies, I already enter the game expecting it to be toast. If Italy has the $19 instead of Germany… so be it.

    On the other sign of the coin, there are many other territories Germany could leave for Italy to boost their income, which doesn’t necessarily mean that I disagree with your idea of Italy taking France.



  • UK doesnt scramble in 90% of the games more than 1 fighter (scottland)
    Why? Sealion threat
    UK loses its fleet in the Atlantic in almost every game anyhow
    Why? because Germany would be foolish not to sink it round 1

    The Allies dominate in economy and number of units, for the Axis it is a race against time.
    This is why J1 DOW is often a good strategy.
    Usually it is not a good idea to not DOW early for the axis, unless they are using a neutral crush strategy.

    That being said…
    The Axis are basically stalling themelves for an entire turn, just to kill 6-7 British planes. Doesn’t seem logical to me…

    It may be some wonder strategy, who knows. Try it out on tripleA sometime vs a decent player and see how it goes.



  • @Young:

    Personally I wouldn’t stack France to save it. I don’t really care who takes France because if I’m the allies, I already enter the game expecting it to be toast. If Italy has the $19 instead of Germany… so be it.

    On the other sign of the coin, there are many other territories Germany could leave for Italy to boost their income, which doesn’t necessarily mean that I disagree with your idea of Italy taking France.

    S France, Yugo, Bulgaria, Greece…8 IPCs per turn

    Germany threatening sealion is the best way to help Italy, as it forces UK to defend round 1.
    Germany can then use its round 1 build (carrier 2 transports) + its huge number of aircraft to take Gibraltar and secure the med on round 2.
    Thats 10 IPCs just in bonuses for Italy per turn

    Combined with the above territories that is a income boost of 18 IPCs per turn for Italy.


  • 2017 '16 '15 '14 '12

    If you roll your France battle first and do your retreat before you do the sea battles, UK will know there is no sealion threat and they should scramble, especially if you bought all ground units.  If they don’t scramble and opt to stack france instead, you’ll kill them G2 along with the French.  This costs you time against Russia but if for some reason you really really want UK to have no planes this could be a way to ensure it.  I don’t think you’d fare very well on the Eastern front from that point on though.



  • @variance:

    If you roll your France battle first and do your retreat before you do the sea battles, UK will know there is no sealion threat and they should scramble, especially if you bought all ground units.  If they don’t scramble and opt to stack france instead, you’ll kill them G2 along with the French.  This costs you time against Russia but if for some reason you really really want UK to have no planes this could be a way to ensure it.  I don’t think you’d fare very well on the Eastern front from that point on though.

    I’m fairly sure all scrambles are declared before any combat is rolled, but I could be wrong.
    That said, I agree with Uncrustable; Germany can help Italy get on its legs in other ways while buffing itself up too.


  • Customizer

    @ColonelCarter:

    I’m fairly sure all scrambles are declared before any combat is rolled, but I could be wrong.
    That said, I agree with Uncrustable; Germany can help Italy get on its legs in other ways while buffing itself up too.

    You are right. The attacker has to make all combat moves first and declare that he is done. Then, before any dice are rolled, the defender decides whether or not to scramble.

    This sounds like an interesting idea and if done properly, it would set UK back a lot. Most of the Royal Navy in the Med and Atlantic would be gone and nearly all the RAF too. UK would be left very weak against Italy in Africa and Germany for a possible Sealion.
    However, I also agree this could leave Germany very unprepared against Russia. Germany may get London just to end up falling before the Bolshevik Hoards.



  • Might just be me, but unless Germany takes France after Italy fails (due to British planes)cant the allies then do some smart play and prevent Italy from advancing into Africa at all?

    check:

    Germany - does stuff, weakens France, takes Normandy and south France
    Britain - Sees Germany wants Italy to take France, Sends 5 Fighters and 1 Tac. Moves Fighter from Alexandria to Algeria
    Italy - Attacks France, Fails (barely)
    France - builds Infantry, Move 3 African Infantry to stack with British Fighter
    Germany - Germany must now take France, Or let Italy suffer. Lets assume they let Italy suffer.
    U.S.A - sees a massive weakness in south Europe. Builds Naval base in sea zone 89, build some transports and blokes with guns
    Britain - Sends 3 Fighters to France
    Italy - Italy attacks France and takes it, losing almost everything. Collects big income

    Well yay, the Axis FINALLY get Italy to take France. However, Africa has not received any reinforcements of any sort as of yet.

    And smart play on the allies part should mean America is in sea zone 91 with a nice big fleet, ready to take Italy/Africa.
    And there’s nothing Italy can do about it.

    TL:DR Unless Germany takes France G2 then Africa WILL be allied, and Italy WILL be screwed.


  • 2017 '16 '15 '14 '12

    Don’t forget the French fighter.  This is actually listed in Cow’s Germany handbook under the name “Gambit play”.

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=30167.0



  • We’ve had a few games that Germany ended up weakening Paris for Italy to take. It wasn’t necessarily planed that way (the first time) but after the second round of attack the French were down to just a couple units so the Germans with-drew back to Northern Italy (mech/tanks went that way). This gets surviving German units heading to Russia faster BTW. In our games most of Italy’s navy gets wiped on UK1 so the 19 IPCs comes in handy for the re-build (they will need less German help). The German air force will generally help to clear the Med or reinforce Italian advances for the first couple turns (a couple U-boats dropped off S France G2 if UK has no destroyers also comes in handy).

    I have to say that in none of those games did the UK stack Paris w/ftrs to stop Italy from getting it. If so as the Axis I wouldn’t mind double hitting it w/Italy & Germany to crush the RAF. Other pros for the axis would be that the Italian navy wouldn’t get hit, and those dead UK ftrs aren’t going to end up in Moscow.



  • So the basic thought of this idea is simple if you look to more then one turn a head.

    For one it’s safe to say that anyone playing as Germany will Clear out the Atlantic as best you can. I personally like to clear out the two destroyers and transports as manditory, and the English Channel and off Scotland. Then do the standees opening kvements and attacks I like to take Southern France cause it gives me the ability to have a port as Germany in the meditranian.

    So why leave France to Italy well I think of it as a Baiting the allies into helping France for a futile cause. Say Britian flys in all the planes to France you Possably bought France one turn but lost all of you Airforce leaving England with no navy and no Airforce and Italy can mop up what’s left in the Meditranian and the Atlantic is empty

    While it’s allways benifital to help Germany by giving France you can allways stall and just do a G3 into Russia no big deal and this gives Italy a soild 3 rounds to build up in the meditranian. And also push into the middle east getting into Russia quicker and threating Calcuta also.

    While yes America can eventually build up normaly by round 5-6 they can start to push back at Germany but by then it maybe to late England is cut out and cripples to much

    Also the whole Sealion can ofcorse work but any smart player can see if your telegraphing by your purchases so that’s moot and personally there’s better buys tha can be better suited then that if your going for Russia and just interceding to cripple England also if England dose send it’s Airforce to France all the more for me to Stratigic Bomb them to death cause they cant scramble any way you look at it it’s win / win! 🙂


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