It may have swung it towards the axis
Sooooo….what was the point of changing the rules then?
I’m here to present you a project i’m working on that has the purpose to represent a more historical 1940 starting setup.
First of all i’m going to modify FRANCE. It’s just the beginning, as work proceeds i’ll try to keep it playable and balanced game.
Every suggestions/playtests (if you wanna try this setup) are very very welcome.
France at the beginning of the war (before Dunquerke) had a lot of infantry in Normandy (english reinforcements, that i’ll treat when i’ll modify England setup) and a lot of tanks (equal in quantity/quality to germans); and a really powerful marine! Suggestions?
Here my changes (in red):
France (Starting Income: 19 IPCs)
France: 6 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 2 Tank,
1 AA, 1 Fighter, Air Base, Major IC
United Kingdom: 1 Infantry, 1 Fighter
Normandy/Bordeaux: 1 Infantry, 1 Artillery, Naval Base, Minor IC
Southern France: 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery,
French West Africa: 1 Infantry
Morocco: 1 Infantry
Algeria: 1 Infantry
Tunisia: 1 Infantry
Syria: 1 Infantry
Sea Zone 72: 0 Destroyer
Sea Zone 83: 1 Destroyer
Sea Zone 94: 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser
Sea Zone 93: 1 Destroyer
Sea Zone 110: 1 Cruiser
It is not a bad idea, which would ensure Germany went in with all 20 available ground units on G1, rather than grab Normandy or S France, which some do.
Unfortunately, the two French units in the UK are a necessary aid to preventing an easy G3 Sealion. Those 2 units are meant to represent Polish and Czech units which have fled to the UK. They could, of course, be changed to UK units, rather than eliminated.
Have you tried playing with this revised French set up?
keep in mind the 2inf 1ftr in the UK are there for a reason.
I think their main purpose is to give London better chances against Sea Lion, without giving the UK better attack opportunities early on.
Simply removing them from the UK will doom London. ‘Dunkirk’ cannot be done with this game (system, setup). Maybe if you move the BEF from Paris into Normandy as well as adding a French TRS in sz109?!
If this still spells doomsday for the UK just add another French inf/art and a tank in Paris. If Germany destroys both armies in Normandy and Paris G1, the setback must be a lesser shot at Sea Lion for balance purposes, otherwise Germany will just always do this and then Sea Lion for the win.
There also were several French Battleships and a carrier active when France fell. I think the French ships in AA are also just there for balance purposes because it was a complicated situation regarding Vichy France, Free France and the French fleet and to make up for the fact that the RN was much bigger historically.
First of all Global 1940 takes place immediately after Dunkirk. This means that Nearly all British and French armor is gone as they left it behind to the Germans in operation Dynamo to retreat to Britain. Speaking of operation Dynamo, the whole point of there being French troops in Britain is to represent the Thousands of French soldiers that retreated across the channel to Britain from Dunkirk. So the only thing you can really change for historical accuracy is taking out the fighter From UK, but even then there were plenty of Free French air crews that helped out in the battle of Britain after France fell. After Dunkirk, all British and French forces in northern France (and therefore Normandy-Bordeaux in global) were destroyed or retreated to Britain. This includes Infantry so a buffing of Normandy with infantry will give no more historical value to the game than extra tanks in France would (by the way French and British tanks were absolute crap compared to Germany’s Panzers). And if you remember the British actually attacked the French Mediterranean fleet after Paris fell because it was too strong to fall into German hands (the French actually had a number of Battleships in the Med) In global I find the starting position of France to not be in need of much change. With that being said, If your going to change French starting units in a way that would benefit historical accuracy (and possibly game balance) focus more on inf in France and Southern France. As I have said before, almost all of British and French tanks in Europe were completely wiped out as they were almost exclusively stationed with forces in the north for the main offense into low Countries which were destroyed when Germans Blitzed through the Ardennes cut them off in Dunkirk pocket. So to represent this I believe you should swap out the french tank for another infantry or artillery (same with British tank in France). As for southern France, French Military supplied a great number of divisions along alpine wall (Italy) and to a small degree facing Pyrenees mountains (Spain if it decided to join war with Axis)Which is in the global territory of southern France. While they were still outnumbered in the actual war, they weren’t nearly as depleted as they are in global. Considering the fact that it is worth 3 and more importantly is an NO to Italy, I think the 1 inf you were going to send to Normandy would be much better suited in Southern France considering the huge Italian (and German) force that can take it round 1. By no means do I believe that there are no changes that are needed to be made in the name of history regarding France or any power (Inf in FIC, diff China rules, stupidly long bomber range, etc.) And by no means am i saying your suggestions are ridiculous, in fact, I encourage for there to be historical changes to global and love to hear ideas like these. I challenge you to find me a way make Americas income more accurate (and fair). Or, if your hyped up about the French, try and make a simple rule to represent Vichy and Free french forces. I look forward to hearing your ideas Braccon
Good luck. Last year I played around with trying to create a Poland/France variant using the existing Europe map and striving for historical troop strengths. I worked out ratios for armour, mech, and inf divs as well as arty, AA, and fighters and bombers. I came up with some rules for initial neutrality and mobilizing France, annexing Denmark and other territories, etc. (There was lots of limitation on seazone moves…only a few specific things were allowed until 1940 era.) It was pretty complex as I had the Finns, Norwegians, Eastern Poland, Bessarabia and some other areas involved as well. I play tested it a few times hoping to get something together that had potential.
It didn’t work out… Giving extra turns to do all this either creates a German powerhouse or cripples it. In chess it would be called a very “sharp” position.
Poland capitulated rapidly, but could put up a one turn defense before Russia took Eastern Poland and Vyborg (from Finns). France still succumbed, the question was whether or not it could delay or cripple Germany. The UK could choose to go all in putting troops and air in France, but a Dunkirk style evacuation was also possible of limited French and UK troops. There were map limitations in doing/representing all of this.
What I did get out of the exercise is that it would be an interesting game to create a custom made 1939 map and scenario to represent the initial German (and Russian) expansion and resistance.
This includes Infantry so a buffing of Normandy with infantry will give no more historical value to the game than extra tanks in France would (by the way French and British tanks were absolute crap compared to Germany’s Panzers).
From what I’ve gathered some of the French tanks weren’t that bad and they were numerous. Germany didn’t have all that many of its best Panzers available yet. Half its force was thin skinned/under gunned I’s and II’s. They couldn’t penetrate the armour of some of the French tanks. However, the French tanks had issues with reliabilty, speed, lack of radio, and overloading the tank commander.
The real German advantage was in superior generalship, command and control. They did a great job of employing combined arms.
Thank you all! Thank for your suggestions, they are very appreciated!
I think i’ll modify the setup adding just one tank in france and at least
infantry in south france. Still don’t know how to do with infantries
and plane in london…but wait…when i’ll finish every set up…
For example: how do you feel about giving a french BB in SZ92 and create
An italian NO if it manages in destroying ALL french ships? For
example 10 ipc one time per game? (Italian regia marina superiority)
P.s. first topic modified
I like the sound of that NO, except a one off of 5 might prove sufficient. Italy needs to have its NO’s clipped(interesting pun) as it can grow to preposterous strength income wise when compared to the UK.
A Battleship would be more reasonable too, but replace the DD or CR, not add it to them.
We do have to return to the non question of Vichy, of course. It so well and good giving France what it is due, it is another removing it when its capital falls.
I hope you are having fun with your venture. I shall follow it with interest.
Still don’t know how to do with infantries
and plane in london…but wait…when i’ll finish every set up…
You could simply leave them there ;-). Sounds like they are perfectly in place since Dunkirk indeed has already happened (if 1 game turn = 6 months, entire first half of 1940 must have been done) and there are the czech/polish ‘armies in exile’.
Stronger French navy sounds fun but very sharply at the point of balancing/unbalancing the game… You don’t want to give the oportunity for early DDay without decent American investments.
So where to add what.
Possible German control of the French fleet was a nightmare for the Brits. If it was a real possibility is a different discussion I think. What matters to me is what followed: in operation Catapult UK attacked/boarded French ships everywhere from the English ports all the way down to Alexandria.
As a possible simulation of this with simplicity and balance, the French navy could be at least as strong as the Italian navy and upon the fall of France Germany gets control of it (replace it with German ships).
The RN must ofc be stronger as well to deal with this, giving her at least the tools of launching Operation Catapult if the UK so desires.
Some French ships went on fighting as Free French after all this but I think it is too far away from simplicity if this has to be simulated as well.
Italy (Starting Income: 10 IPCs) changed setup
Southern Italy: 6 infantry, 2 AAA, 2 fighter, air base, naval base, minor IC
Northern Italy: 3 infantry, 2 artillery, 0 tank, 2 AAA, 0 strategic bomber, 1 tactical bomber major IC
Albania: 2 infantry, 0 tank, 1 artillery
Libya: 2 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 mechanized infantry
Tobruk: 3 infantry, 1 mechanized infantry, 1 artillery, 1 tank
Italian Somaliland: 1 infantry
Ethiopia: 2 infantry, 1 artillery
SZ 76: 1 submarine
SZ 95: 1 transport, 2 submarine, 1 destroyer, 1 cruiser
SZ 96: 1 transport, 1 destroyer
SZ 97: 1 transport, 1 cruiser, 1 battleship
5 IPCs if Axis control 3 of Gibraltar, Southern France, Greece, and Egypt
5 IPCS if no Allied or strictly neutrals surface warships in SZ 92-99
5 IPCS if Axis control Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Tobruk, and Alexandria
2 IPCs per territory if Italy controls Iraq, Persia, and/or Northwest Persia
reasons? lack of tanks and heavy bombers; many troops on foot and submarines!
Morning. Italy, my native country!
Obviously, it is easy to comment on your changes, but could prove premature without knowing all the nations’ changes to better perceive if overall balance has been overturned. despite this, I realise you wanted accuracy over balance.
I could agree with you over the Bomber, but would rather see a swap for a Tac as Italy developed into a nation with a reputation for good Torpedo Bombers. The one real strategic bomber was never developed in any sort of number.
I am not sure giving another Mech is that accurate either. Italy’s African forces were very static, hence their poor showing in the vast and quick moving desert campaign.
Subs, I agree with you. Italy was very famous and adept with the mini sub. Not sure about placing one off East Africa. Do you know of some stationed there?
Thank you once again for your time and efforts. I am interested.
First of all…Thank you! I’ll try to save both balance and historical forces
About submarines…yes we had some of them in AOI bases
In North Africa i’m not sure about mech inf too…maybe it’s better to
add a normal infantry instead!
Heavy bomber: giving a tactical means that Italy will have a better
defensive piece than strategical bomber for this reason i simply decide
To cut off the original bomb…what about to add 1 tactical and a fighter
Instead of 2 fighters and the bomber?
Now i’m thinking about add some new NO maybe
As always…give me inputs!
About submarines…yes we had some of them in AOI bases.
Italy should really not have any Mech, but one gives some variety.
The only mech units would have been intrinsic to the one(good) armoured Division, the Ariete.
Planes up to you. I think having two Fts helps combat UK’s Taranto on T1, so might be necessary. See what others think.
NOs: I think fewer!
A rampart second Roman Empire annoys me, it is so ridiculous a notion.
We Italians are peace loving, pasta eaters and football watchers, with no time to spare for warfare.
Italy’s setup modified!
Next: Atlantic UK!
United Kingdom Europe side of the map (starting income: 28) modified setup
United Kingdom: 2 Infantry, 1 Mechanized Infantry, 4 AA, 2 Fighters, 1 Strategic Bomber, Air Base, Naval Base, Major IC
Normandy: 1 infantry
France: 1 infantry, 1 Tank
Scotland: 2 Infantry, 1 AA, 1 Fighter, Air Base
Iceland: Air Base
Quebec: 1 Infantry, 1 Tank, Minor IC
Ontario: 1 Infantry, 1 Artillery
New Brunswick Nova Scotia: Naval Base
Gibraltar: 1 Fighter, Naval Base
Malta: 1 Infantry, 1 AA, 1 Fighter
Alexandria: 1 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Tank
Egypt: 1 Infantry, 1 Mechanized Infantry, 1 Artillery, Naval Base
Anglo-Egyptian Sudan: 1 Infantry
Union of South Africa: 2 Infantry, Naval Base, Minor IC
West India: 1 Infantry
Sea Zone 71: 1 Destroyer
Sea Zone 91: 1 Cruiser
Sea Zone 98: 1 Transport, 1 Destroyer, 1 Cruiser, 1 Aircraft Carrier (Carrying 1 Tactical Bomber)
Sea Zone 106: 1 Transport, 1 Destroyer
Sea Zone 109: 1 Transport, 1 Destroyer
Sea Zone 110: 1 Cruiser, 1 Battleship, 1 transport
Sea Zone 111: 1 Destroyer, 1 Cruiser, 1 Battleship
When the United Kingdom Is at War in Europe
5 IPCs if the United Kingdom controls all of its original territories in its European economy
2 IPCs if there are no German Submarines in North Atlantic (SZs 101-110)
3 IPCs one per game if UK destroyes French’s navy in SZ 94
This is in response to both Italy changes and Atlantic UK changes
Italy: I like it historically, but balance wise i am scared. Italy is really the only minor power in the game that can grow into a great power (specifically by taking Egypt and border European nations) and I am scared taking away strat bomber and tanks will limit its ability to become a major power. But hey, i haven’t played Italy with this setup so i may just be crazy (and the extra subs will probably counteract this anyways)
Atlantic UK: Love it…. absolutely love it… maybe not the inf in normand-… nope… France is gonna fall anyways so another inf in Normandy wouldn’t really do much, so dare I say your changes are PERFECT… That UK NO is SSSOOOO needed to add on to the lame ass UK NO OOB and It made my day when i saw it in your changes…
Fantastic Job and I can’t wait to see more
I’m working on it…for now the project it’s still under testing! I’ve already correct something (removed the 3° UK NO [too easy to obtain] and balanced the forces in north africa).
For now i go on, we’ll see at least what we did
Keep on supporting!
GERMANY (starting income 30IPCs) modified setup
Germany: 11 Infantry, 3 Artillery, 3 AA, 1 Tactical Bomber, 2 Strategic Bombers, Major IC
Western Germany: 3 Infantry, 4 Mechanized Infantry, 1 Artillery, 3 AA, 2 Fighters, 3 Tactical bombers, Air Base, Naval Base, Major IC
Denmark: 2 Infantry
Norway: 3 Infantry, 1 Fighter
Holland/Belgium: 4 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 3 tanks, 1 Fighter, 1 Mechanized Infantry
Greater Southern Germany: 6 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 3 tanks
Slovakia/Hungary: 2 Infantry, 1 Tank, 1 Fighter
Romania: 2 Infantry, 1 Tank
Poland: 3 Infantry, 1 Tank, 1 Tactical Bomber
Sea Zone 90: 1 Sub
Sea Zone 103: 1 Sub
Sea Zone 108: 1 Sub
Sea Zone 113: 1 Battleship
Sea Zone 114: 1 Transport, 1 Cruiser
Sea Zone 117: 1 Sub
Sea Zone 118: 1 Sub
Sea Zone 124: 1 Sub
When Germany Is Not at War with the Soviet Union:
• 5 IPCs representing wheat and oil from the Soviet Union.
When Germany Is at War with the Soviet Union:
• 5 IPCs per territory if Germany controls Novgorod (Leningrad), Volgograd (Stalingrad), and/or Russia (Moscow).
• 5 IPCs if an Axis power controls Caucasus.
When Germany Is at War with the United Kingdom and France:
• 5 IPCs if Germany controls both Denmark and Norway while Sweden is not either pro-Allies or Allied-controlled.
• 2 IPCs per territory if Germany controls Iraq, Persia, and/or Northwest Persia.
• 2 IPCs if there is at least one German Sub in North Atlantic (SZ 101-110)
Also Subs are pretty easy to kill it is not like they can hide like in the real war
actually subs are perfect at hiding. If there is no destroyer in the area the sub cant even be attacked at all by anything (given of course that you were smart enough to opt to submerge your subs)
You’re not there yet, but I have supportable opinions about some things on the Pacific board
The battleship in Z37 is presumably to represent the Prince of Wales (and the Monitor or whatever, if memory serves) but those capital ships were not sent to Malaya/Singapore until 1941 (again, if I remember the research I did awhile back correctly).
Australia is absurdly over-powered and arguably should not be a separate playable power. Not sure if 2 infantry in Egypt is actually enough, though. From what I read, Australia had more of a presence in North Africa than Australia itself. Anyway, 3 fighters for ANZ (compare this to Germany or Italy or really any power on the Europe board) is ABSURD.
Chinese fighter is also…… a joke. Flying tigers didn’t exist until 1942. I thought this game started in 1940.
3 aircraft for India is no doubt too much also. Basically Pacific powers have too much compared to Europe powers, even after the “aircraft reduction” plan Larry did after the laughable disparity that was OOB. Japan had like 25 planes and Germany about 6 or something - it was stupid. Anyway, the disparity is still there.
Major complex in India is ridiculous as well.
Somebody suggested a mid-level complex that builds 5 be introduced to the game (costs 20 to build), and this would be ideal for India. Problem with Minors and Majors is there’s no in-between. Big difference between 3 and 10 units…
You can’t change the title of the thread, but I think you should go ahead and consider it Alpha 4
Or “player’s edition”.
You’re doing great work (putting a lot of thought into things) from what I’ve seen.
If it helps you at all, peruse some of the brainstorming ideas I’ve had (and this reflects some input from others, so far), available here:
There are different tabs at the bottom (I have ideas for NO’s as well, for example)
I will probably be incorporating some of your starting setup ideas - maybe you would like some of my ideas too, who knows
Makes sense to share ideas and help each other develop a better G40.
Why not! Thank you…sharing ideas id the best way TO improve a project!
Tested this sunday…it worked as good as we didn’t expected…this setup looked balanced at a first sight, clearly it needs to be fixed a little more (i’ve already done some adjustment).
During the game me and my friends had some ideas about Vichy:
What do you think? Axis players are both free to invade France entirely or let it playable as ally minor power, using his forces!
UK Pacific (starting IPCs 17)
India: 6 infantry; 1 artillery; 3 AAA; 1 fighter; 0 tactical bomber; air base; naval base; MiC; 1 Mechanized infantry
Burma: 2 infantry; 1 fighter
Kwangtung; 2 infantry; naval base; 1 AAA
Malaya: 3 infantry; naval base
West India: 1 infantry
SZ 37: Battleship
Sz 39: 1 destroyer; 1 Cruiser; 1 transport
When Pacific Uk is in War with Japan
• 3 IPCs if UK controls Malaya
• 2 IPCs if UK control Kwangtung
China (starting IPCs 12)
Szechwan: 6 infantry; 1 fighter
Hunan: 2 infantry
Yunnan: 4 infantry
Kweichow: 2 infantry
Shensi: 2 infantry
Suiyuyan: 2 infantry
• 5 IPCs for Burma Road
Soviet Union (starting IPCs 37)
Karelia: 2 Infantry
Archangel: 1 Infantry
Russia: 1 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Mech Infantry, 1 tank, 1 Fighter, 1 Tac Bomber, 2 AA Guns, 1 Airbase, 1 Major IC
Volgograd: 1 tank, 1 Mech Infantry, 1 Minor IC
Caucasus: 2 Infantry
Bessarabia: 2 Infantry
Western Ukraine: 1 Infantry, 1 Artillery
Eastern Poland: 2 Infantry
Baltic States: 3 Infantry
Belarus: 1 Infantry
Novgorod: 6 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Fighter, 2 AA Gun, 1 Airbase, 1 Naval Base, 1 Minor IC
Vyborg: 3 Infantry
Ukraine: 3 Infantry, 1 Minor IC
Amur: 6 Infantry
Sakha: 6 Infantry, 2 AA guns
Buryatia: 6 Infantry
Sea Zone 115: 1 Cruiser 1 submarine
Sea Zone 127: 1 Sub
Japan: 6 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 1 Tank, 2 Fighters, 2 Tac Bombers, 1 Bomber, 3 AA Guns, 1 Airbase, 1 Naval Base, 1 Major IC
Manchuria: 6 Infantry, 1 Mech Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 AA Gun, 2 Fighters, 2 Tac Bombers
Palau Island: 1 Infantry
Kiangsi: 3 Infantry, 1 Artillery
Formosa: 1 Fighter
Shantung: 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery
Kwangsi: 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery
Iwo Jima: 1 Infantry
Jehol: 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery
Caroline Islands: 2 Infantry, 1 AA gun, 1 Airbase, 1 Naval Base
Siam: 2 Infantry
Okinawa: 1 Infantry, 1 Fighter
Kiangsu: 3 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Fighter, 1 Tac Bomber.
Korea: 4 Infantry, 1 Fighter
Sea Zone 6: 1 Sub, 2 Destroyers, 2 Carriers each with 1 Tac & 1 Ftr., 1 Cruiser, 1 Battleship, 1 Transport
Sea Zone 19: 1 Sub, 1 Battleship, 1 Destroyer, 1 Transport
Sea Zone 33: 1 Destroyer, 1 Carrier w/ 1 Tac & 1 Ftr.
Sea Zone 20: 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport
When Japan is not at War with Us
• 10 IPCs
When Japan is at war with Uk/Anzac
• 3 IPCs if Japan controls Sumatra and Borneo
• 3 IPCs if Japan controls Java and Celebes
• 5 IPCs if Japan controls India and/or New South Wales
When Japan is at war with Us
• 5 IPCs if Japan controls Guam, Midway, Wake and Carolines
• 3 IPCs if Japan controls Hawaii
• 5 IPCs if Japan controls West Us
That’s all folks (for now)! ^^
Soon i’ll post Anzac and Us
Some of those changes look similar to my ideas - did you look at mine and agree, or was it coincidence and “great minds thinking alike”? Just wondering
Anyway, at a glance I like your changes overall. Good idea to break up NO for money islands into 2. Offset? by breaking up UK’s - they will collect more now than before also, since they will sometimes have Singapore and not Hong Kong (of course)
Reducing air and infantry forces in Pacific (for any/all powers) is appropriate, in my opinion (as you have done)
Of course i did some of your ideas were similar TO
mine…some other are interesting
However i divided the bonuses because i find it unfair…both
For uk and japan…i’ve also reduced those regarding anzac
We can speak.about it when i’ll post us and anzac