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Subs and scramble at amphibious



  • I want to make an amohibious assault on a country. The defender got an airbase and fighters and a destoyer in the sea zone where the attack is coming from.

    I attack the destroyer with only subs to be able to land troops with a transport.

    If he scrambles to protect the destroyer and the subs sink the destroyer in the first round and his planes fails to sink all the subs, is the seazone then over and the landing can take place? Does his fighters become useless after the destroyer is killed?

    /M


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '13 Moderator

    Afraid not.
    It is the other way around. If you only have Subs and Transports and the defender has Fighters, you cannot  hit his planes any more and his Fighters can get to shoot at your now defenceless Transports.
    As the attacker, You do have the option to retreat.

    Submarines prevent defenceless Transports unloading in the Combat phase.
    Maybe that has confused you.



  • Ok, but can the fighters who scrambled to assist in the sea combat shoot at the transport? I thought the transports wasnt in the actual sea battle but maybe thats my missunderstanding?

    But doesnt this make it impossible to make a successful amphibious attack with only subs and transports if the defending area has an airbase, fighters and a surface sea unit since the attacker never can defeat the fighters?

    /M



  • He doesn’t even need a surface sea unit. You can always scramble from airbase to defend against an amphibious assault.
    So, yes, if you are doing an amphibious assault that borders an enemy airbase that has fighters and/or tactical bombers, then you always need more than just subs to escort your transports. You’re going to need some surface warships (or airplanes of your own in the sea zone) to defeat the possible scrambling airplanes.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '13 Moderator

    Precisely. One Ft can prevent amphibious assaults
    Always best to leave one on Japan.

    Ground units on the Transports are awaiting the results of the sea  battles.
    The Transports are in the battle. Just cannot defend.



  • Thanks guys! 🙂 The war can continue! (around round 15 now i think!)

    /M


  • Customizer

    Some have suggested that 1 round of Global 40 is equal to six months of real time. If that were the case, you would be starting June through November 1947.



  • Yeah, I think that idea might come from the classic Axis & Allies game, in which, if I remember correctly, the rule book made a mention that each round represented 6 months of ‘real’ time.
    This would mean that, going by history, the game should be winnable within 10 rounds. That can work for the Axis, but for the Allies it is pretty much impossible.
    It also introduces a lot of logical problems, like why can ships only move half way across the Pacific Ocean in 6 months.



  • hehe, yes the time thing becomes pretty funny depending on what part of the game you are looking at! 🙂 This game is hard to compare to the real war, Japan is isolated to its mainland but Germany and Italy holds UK Africa and half of russia! But with US throwing 80+ IPC with max upgraded factories its a pretty even game! 🙂





  • @ChocolatePancake:

    Yeah, I think that idea might come from the classic Axis & Allies game, in which, if I remember correctly, the rule book made a mention that each round represented 6 months of ‘real’ time.
    This would mean that, going by history, the game should be winnable within 10 rounds. That can work for the Axis, but for the Allies it is pretty much impossible.
    It also introduces a lot of logical problems, like why can ships only move half way across the Pacific Ocean in 6 months.

    IF you as allies maintain a defensive line you can win around round 5 as well. You have 40 to 70 more production each round so the difference in units can be compensated.
    If you neuter or even destroy italy ( just the fleet will do ) and prevent japan from winning, and have a decent defence with russia you have won the game. Sure you technicaly can play on for 15 more rounds but if the axis cannot win and the allies make more units every turn what is the point.



  • Agree, a asume that no one plays allies until the actual winning conditions have been complete (capture Berlin, Rome and Tokyo). In our current game Japan is almost destroyed but we still hope for an axis win due to victory cities on Europe side!



  • Hi again!

    There seems still to be som uncertainy over the rules of amphibious attacks and the order of actions in our group! 🙂 Is the following order correct? If not, please comment! 🙂

    1. The attacker moves his naval units (incl. loaded transports) into the seazone outside the territory that is beeing attacked.
    2. The attacker declares which air units that will be involved in the land battle of the assault.
    3. The attacker declares which air units that will be involved in the sea-battle if there are defending surface warships.
    4. The defender decides which fighters/tacticals who will scramble to the seazone from neighboring territories with airbase and figheters/tacticals.
    5. The defender decides which fighters/tacticals who will scramble to the seazone from the territory beeing attacked if he got an airbase and figheters/tacticals. The rest will defend in land battle.
    6. The attacker can move additionall naval and air units to the seabattle to help against scrambled units.
    7. Sea battle starts with all attacking naval units (incl. loaded transports) and designated air units against all defending naval units and scrambled air units.
    8. The attacker must defeat all defending naval and air units to win the sea battle.
    9. If he have surviving loaded transports, the land battle starts.



  • A few corrections:

    6. Does never happen. Scramblers have the absolute last word in the argument. The attacker can NOT react and has to plan and move ahead without knowing with how many planes the defender will scramble, if at all.

    9. If the attackers has designated aircraft to the land battle that are already in that area, the land battle starts anyway, even though the sea battle was lost. Most likely very disadvantagous for the attacking aircraft but that is what war is like :-). Retreat surviving aircraft after the first combat round is all the attacker has left to save as much of that airforce as possible…



  • Thanks!

    #6 is a discussion due to the folowing text in the rules about amphibious assaults (top left page 14 Europe 1940 2nd)
    “Further, if enemy air units could potentially be scrambled to defend the sea zone, additional units may be moved into the sea zone to combat them in case they are indeed scrambled.”

    What does this mean if not like described in #6 below?

    #9 Seem logical, thanks!


  • Customizer

    @DiscoKnekt:

    #6 is a discussion due to the folowing text in the rules about amphibious assaults (top left page 14 Europe 1940 2nd)
    “Further, if enemy air units could potentially be scrambled to defend the sea zone, additional units may be moved into the sea zone to combat them in case they are indeed scrambled.”

    What does this mean if not like described in #6 below?

    This all has to be done in the attacker’s combat movement. That phrase is referring to an island or a coastal territory that is NOT protected by warships but does have an air base in the targeted territory or one that is adjacent (like Japan with Korea).
    Technically, to perform an amphibious assault, you don’t always need accompanying warships. You could just send in loaded transports by themselves if there are no enemy warships and the territory in question does not have an air base to protect it.
    However, if that territory (or an adjacent one) has an airbase that could scramble into the adjacent sea zone, then you have to send in warships and/or planes with the transports to fight the scramble planes before making the landing.
    That phrase in the rulebook is simply telling any potential attacker that you have to plan for scramble planes during your combat movement and move additional units accordingly. The enemy air base may not scramble, but you have to prepare your invasion force for that possibility. And it all has to be done on your combat movement. You can’t see that he scrambles then move more units in a sort of second combat movement. You only get one.
    That’s why it is best when planning amphibious assaults to go in heavy. Don’t go in with barely enough then get surprised by your enemy when he either scrambles or doesn’t.



  • Thanks! That sentence is a bit confusing tho! 🙂 All this should make the following then:

    1. The attacker moves his naval units (incl. loaded transports) into the seazone outside the territory that is beeing attacked as a combat move.
    2. The attacker declares which air units that will be involved in the land battle of the assault.
    3. The attacker declares which air units that will be involved in the sea-battle if there are defending surface warships.
    4. The defender decides which fighters/tacticals who will scramble to the seazone from neighboring territories with airbase and figheters/tacticals.
    5. The defender decides which fighters/tacticals who will scramble to the seazone from the territory beeing attacked if he got an airbase and figheters/tacticals. The rest will defend in land battle.
    6. Sea battle starts with all attacking naval units (incl. loaded transports) and designated air units against all defending naval units and scrambled air units.
    7. The attacker must defeat all defending naval and air units to win the sea battle.
    8. If he has surviving loaded transports, the land battle starts.
    9. If the attacker has desigated air units to the land attack, the land battle will be fought for atleast the first round after which the attacker can retreat, regardless of the outcome of the sea battle.

    And all of the above applies regardless if there are defending surface warships or not?

    /M



  • @DiscoKnekt:

    9. If the attacker has desigated air units to the land attack, the land battle will be fought for atleast the first round after which the attacker can retreat, regardless of the outcome of the sea battle.

    Yes.  And once units are unloaded from a transport for the amphibious assault, those units can not retreat with the air units or units that may have joined the battle via an overland route.



  • @DiscoKnekt:

    Agree, a asume that no one plays allies until the actual winning conditions have been complete (capture Berlin, Rome and Tokyo). In our current game Japan is almost destroyed but we still hope for an axis win due to victory cities on Europe side!

    Correct. I was referring to the rule book victory conditions. Obviously the allies can force the axis to surrender by round 10, but actually conquering all 3 capitols is pretty much impossible. On the other hand, it is very possible for the axis to achieve their rule book victory conditions by round 10. Anyway, I guess it’s a moot point.


  • 2015 '14

    @DiscoKnekt:

    Thanks!

    #6 is a discussion due to the folowing text in the rules about amphibious assaults (top left page 14 Europe 1940 2nd)
    “Further, if enemy air units could potentially be scrambled to defend the sea zone, additional units may be moved into the sea zone to combat them in case they are indeed scrambled.”

    What does this mean if not like described in #6 below?

    Hi there,

    I think it is just not perfectly formulated but “in case they are indeed scrambled” still describes the hypothetical and not the real action that might happen and I guess they want to emphasize that you have anticipate the option of scramble when doing your combat moves.

    The rules are crystal clear about that no combat moves may be changes after the scramble decision:
    page 16 Europe 2nd

    Scramble
    Scrambling is a special movement that the defender can
    make at the end of this phase. It must be done after all of
    the attacker’s combat movements have been completed
    and all attacks have been declared. The attacker may
    not change any combat movements or attacks after the
    defender has scrambled

    Hops that helps!

    Cheers,
    Tobias


  • Customizer

    @ChocolatePancake:

    @DiscoKnekt:

    Agree, a asume that no one plays allies until the actual winning conditions have been complete (capture Berlin, Rome and Tokyo). In our current game Japan is almost destroyed but we still hope for an axis win due to victory cities on Europe side!

    Correct. I was referring to the rule book victory conditions. Obviously the allies can force the axis to surrender by round 10, but actually conquering all 3 capitols is pretty much impossible. On the other hand, it is very possible for the axis to achieve their rule book victory conditions by round 10. Anyway, I guess it’s a moot point.

    Yeah, in most of our games that are Axis victories, it usually happens in 7-10 rounds. Allied victories take longer, usually about 12-15 rounds. That’s actually very historical if you think about it. The Axis was looking for a quick war. What did them in was the fact that it dragged on longer than they planned for and thus overtaxed their resources.



  • So then when can the naval retreat take place.  say a amphip assault iis declared, only transports alone, and no ships whatsoever defending.  the defender announces scramble.  Can the fighter sink the transports before they ever unload?  And can the attacker say retreat, without ever making the attack, and to avoid defenseless sinking of ships and cargo?

    thanks


  • Official Answers

    One round of combat must be fought before the attacker can retreat.  The transports would only be automatically destroyed if there were no retreat route for some reason.


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