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2nd Edition - Russia and China and DOW with Japan.



  • Hey Guys, a quick rule question.

    What is the rule about moving Russian troops into China in the new edition? I can’t really find anything about it in the rules.

    I’m assuming that it declares war with Japan. In the old rules, if Russia declared war on Japan unprovoked, it would forgo a bunch of free units.

    What does declaring war to Japan with Russia do in the new rules? Does it affect Mongolia?

    Thanks



  • Declaring war doesn’t really matter. If Russia attacks any Japanese controlled territory that’s adjacent to Mongolia, or Korea, then they will never get the Mongolian troops.



  • Japan doesn’t get those units though, and they really don’t make much of a difference. But I haven’t seen a situation where Russia wants to start a war with Japan. They need to be worried about Germany first.  If Japan wants to sit on the sidelines and not help Germany in Europe (and they don’t) then the Russian player should allow them to do so even at the cost of losing all of China. China is just a buffer for Russia, not really important, just meant to soak up units and cost Japan some money.  The goal is to get the USA into the war so that they can come save Russia.


  • Customizer

    If Russia moves any units into Chinese territories, that is also considered a DOW against Japan.
    In any case of Russia declaring war on Japan first, the Mongolian troops will simply stay strict neutral throughout the rest of the game. Now, if Japan decides to actually attack one of the Mongolian territories, then they become Pro-Allied neutrals in which case Russia could pick up the rest in a NCM like any other Pro-Allied neutral. That would really hurt the European Axis more if you play the OOB Neutral rules because all other strict neutrals would become Pro-Allied so the Allies could pick up a bunch of extra infantry and IPCs plus get a couple of very strategic positions.
    If you use Neutral Blocks like we do, then the Pro-Allied status would only affect the other Mongolian territories.
    A very odd situation would be if Russia was to declare war on Japan first, then for some reason attack a Mongolian territory. That would make the rest of the Mongolian territories Pro-Axis and would be the only way Japan could get Mongolian recruits. Can’t really think of a situation for this to happen.
    Again, if you used OOB Neutral rules, that would really screw the Western Allies because now Germany and Italy would have a lot of extra troops and IPCs available to them if they could get to them. Although, with the exceptions of Spain, Turkey and Sweeden, it wouldn’t be that big of an advantage to the European Axis as it might to the Allies if they were all Pro-Allied.



  • As far as I know it is like Pancake said:

    Any DOW from Japan or Russia on the other one doesn’t affect the Mongolian units potentially joining the Red Army.

    The act of attacking areas adjacent to Mongolia is a special rule that will affect the Mongolian status and units:

    • If Japan attacks any Russian controlled area bordering a still strictly neutral or pro-allied Mongolia, its units will be set up (under Russian control) after the Japanese conduct combat phase. All Mongolian territories will become Russian controlled.

    • If Russia attacks Korea or any Japanese controlled area bordering a still strictly neutral Mongolia, Mongolia will remain strictly neutral and its units will not join the Red Army as per this special rule.

    Of course, apart from this special rule, Mongolian territories and units can still become pro-allies if directly attacked by an axis power or if an axis power attacked another strictly neutral.
    Allied attacks on Mongolia however are treated a bit different: if Russia attacks it, the remaining Mongolian territories will become pro-axis. Attacks by other allies will not swing Mongolian territories into being pro-axis.

    Tricky notes:
    Allied attacks on other strictly neutrals does not make Mongolian territories become pro-axis, but Axis attacks on other strictly neutrals will make Mongolian territories become pro-allied!


  • 2019 2018 2017

    @RedHunter:

    Japan doesn’t get those units though, and they really don’t make much of a difference. But I haven’t seen a situation where Russia wants to start a war with Japan. They need to be worried about Germany first.  If Japan wants to sit on the sidelines and not help Germany in Europe (and they don’t) then the Russian player should allow them to do so even at the cost of losing all of China. China is just a buffer for Russia, not really important, just meant to soak up units and cost Japan some money.  The goal is to get the USA into the war so that they can come save Russia.

    I’ve been thinking along the same lines, but I’m reconsidering now after reading this topic.


  • 2018 2017 2016

    The Mongolian rules are so complicated, they should really just be pro-USSR neutrals that must be activated. There’s a good chance the Russian player will get them anyway, and since they were good communists, would they be opposed to an offense into Manchuria and Korea to spread the good word?

    The Japanese player could then just attack Mongolian territories one at a time like the European Axis would attack pro-Allied neutrals.


  • 2015 Official Answers '11 '10 Moderator

    Confused yet?

    Read this thread (go to original post), read and approved by Krieghund (the official A&A rules guy, who wrote a lot of the rule book)
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=30776.15

    The above thread may not answer all of the questions you posed.
    I will answer your questions directly right now.


  • 2015 Official Answers '11 '10 Moderator

    @captainhook:

    What is the rule about moving Russian troops into China in the new edition? I can’t really find anything about it in the rules.

    Ignore everything everyone else said  🙂

    The only rule is that Russia must be at war with Japan to move into China.  This DOW would be made immediately before the combat movement phase.

    I’m assuming that it declares war with Japan. In the old rules, if Russia declared war on Japan unprovoked, it would forgo a bunch of free units.

    Right, forget the old rules.  If Russia declares war on Japan (or is already at war with Japan), Russia is free to move into China.

    What does declaring war to Japan with Russia do in the new rules? Does it affect Mongolia?

    #1 It allows Russia to move into all Allied territories on the Pacific map (except USA, until USA is at war)
    #2 It of course allows Russia to attack Japanese territories and/or units
    #3 It allows Russia to attack neutrals on the Pacific board only (Mongolia, which would normally be stupid, or Afghanistan)

    Does it affect Mongolia?
    See the Mongolia rules at the thread I gave you in the previous post.  I organized them differently than the rulebook, hoping that it is more understandable and clear.  Let me know if you have any further questions.

    It is best to ask rules questions in the FAQ thread, where Krieghund or a rules deputy such as myself can give you the correct answer, rather than getting confused by a lot of “I thinks”  🙂
    That said, thanks everyone for trying to be helpful.



  • Thanks for you input guys!



  • @Gamerman01:

    #1 It allows Russia to move into all Allied territories on the Pacific map (except USA, until USA is at war)
    #2 It of course allows Russia to attack Japanese territories and/or units
    #3 It allows Russia to attack neutrals on the Pacific board only (Mongolia, which would normally be stupid, or Afghanistan)

    #4 It allows Allies to move units into Russian territories (except USA until USA is at war).  It’s not a common strategy (or even optimal), but the US can theoretically start a bombing campaign from the “relative” safety of Amur, tempting Japan to attack to activate the mongolians.

    To me, this is the best reason to immediately DOW R1, because there’s no punishment until Russia actually performs a combat move against Manchuria, so you mays as wells let the US have the option to start using Russia as a staging area.

    And also, to be perfectly clear:

    A DOW is required to perform any of those 4 items and is intended to be declared PRIOR to the combat move phase.  Most gaming groups or partners will allow a DOW to happen simultaneously.  Moving a unit from Russia into China (for example) is NOT considered a Declaration of War but it does require a DOW prior to combat move phase.  They are not one and the same.  If you didn’t declare war prior to combat moves, you cannot move a unit into china during noncombat.  Again, most gaming groups will forgive the oversight, but technically…

    Further, a DOW does NOT require a combat move be performed, nor does it require a non combat move into an allied space.  For example (and this is very hypothetical) if Russia is at war with germany, and wants to do some airstrike against german units in Persia or somesuch AND then wants the option to land planes in india if the fight goes south.  To do so they MUST declare war on Japan PRIOR to the combat move so that the planes can land in India as a noncombat move.  They need that DOW first, even if they want the option to do that and aren’t even intending to land in india if the fight goes well or some other battles go poorly.

    there…  done editing.



  • So then… how important is it to make all declarations of war verbal during the game? is this a hard rule due to certain loop holes?


  • 2015 Official Answers '11 '10 Moderator

    @Young:

    So then… how important is it to make all declarations of war verbal during the game? is this a hard rule due to certain loop holes?

    Yes, I would say it’s very important.  It may be wise to use a player aid (like printed or written out on paper) that you can use to track (at least certain) diplomatic relationships, to avoid potentially game-destroying arguments!

    I’ve seen them before.  For example, are France and Japan officially at war (was the DOW really officially made by France, e.g.), when the French destroyer is floating between the Japanese Armada and a poorly defended Calcutta?  This could easily be game deciding, so yes, the ongoing state of diplomatic relations (DOWs) must be absolutely clear at all times!  🙂


    OK, now I see you stressing all.
    I don’t think it’s important to actually say “I declare war on Russia”, for example, when you are making combat moves that turn against Russia.  The DOW is then obviously implied and assumed.
    But when you are not immediately acting on the DOW, then it is extremely important to make it verbal and clear. (Like France DOW on Japan)


  • Customizer

    You know, I didn’t even think of that. The French destroyer off of Madagascar in our games usually goes up to the Med to help the Brits there against Italy. If it ever does go over toward India, it usually ends up pairing up with the British ships already there.
    I never thought of the French destroyer blocking a Japanese invasion of Calcutta, but until Japan takes French Indo-China there is not really a state of war between France and Japan.
    France would have to be the one to DOW on Japan when it moved it’s destroyer in front of the Japanese fleet, wouldn’t it? If it simply moves that destroyer there but doesn’t actually say “DOW on Japan”, the Japanese fleet could simply treat it as neutral and sail right past it, right?
    I wonder how many other little odd-ball tricks like this there are.


  • 2015 Official Answers '11 '10 Moderator

    @knp7765:

    the Japanese fleet could simply treat it as neutral and sail right past it, right?

    Right.

    I wonder how many other little odd-ball tricks like this there are.

    There are a lot.


  • 2018 2017 2015

    Exactly, knp.  Someone once asked me why I bothered to DOW Japan as France.  On rare occasions it has proven useful as a blocker.  Why give up something from your bag of tricks out of laziness?


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