Scenerio: Would you take Kar in Rd 1?

  • Moderator

    Mr. G,

    I thought he was saying that I was full of baloney because I said I wouldn’t attack if he had 15 inf, 1 arm, 1 ftr.

    But hey, he’s right looking at those numbers maybe I would’ve have.

    Again, that only shows a 1 unit difference. That should hardly be a game breaker for someone of his “supposed” skill.

  • DM- what I was trying to say was this:

    He claims you should’ve done more poorly on dice rolls with his original placement…but when he puts more inf there, he said you would’ve done the same damage…doesn’t make sense

  • Moderator

    Ah, I see.

  • I went back and checked my simulator again with 6 inf, 5 arm, 5 ftr, bmr v 13 inf, 2 arm, ftr, AA.

    I ran 1,000 simulations twice, and one time came up with taken by arm, 2 ftr, bmr, the other taken by arm, 3 ftr, bmr. It doesn’t get any closer than that to dead center results. In each case the three likeliest results were; taken by arm, bmr and 2,3 or 4 ftr.

    On top of which, it was 70% to win each time. Obviously if the early rolls started downhill, Germany could still retreat to EEu, salvaging a game of it.

    SHP, I’ve seen you advocate a smaller version of this odds battle (5 inf, arm v 3 inf, ftr Manchuria) for Russia 1. Japan sets this “bait” with a non-bid of units in Manchuria, but only in bid games. You set it deliberately through your purchase and move decisions - I would say at this point you need to suck it up and admit you made a bad decision and bad assessment of your opponent’s risk tolerance levels. (P.S. I also agree with you that the game is not over for the Allies - they still have a viable game, which proves the “depth” the Allies have with respect to moves or rolls gone bad - if this battle had gone badly for the Axis, rather than dead center, the Axis was probably done for, barring very cheap, very early major techs)

    Also - you totally misread my game style. I prefer to win a game in the opening two to three rounds of play. I will take on select 50-50 battles in those rounds if I see an opportunity to gain a significant lead. Sometimes it then takes a long time for my opponents to concede (but that is entirely up to them - I never ask for a concession).


  • Moderator

    (to SHP)

    Lol! (at that last part)

    You are by far the most difficult person I’ve come across on a MB. I mean that in a good way.

    Have ever seen that Monty Python where they go to the argument clinic? Classic stuff. 😄 That what this feels like.

    So, fine.
    I wanted to beat you.
    It was a desperate move.
    It was lucky.
    I’d never do it again (even though I did re-rolled it twice and had the emails sent, I didn’t want to over load your email.) I thought that would at least show that it was that out of the ordinary.
    And you got jobbed in Ukr and Egy too.

    Either you play to win or you don’t play,

    But I just did, and you critcized my move.

    I said I’d play a “no luck” rd 1, I’m just not too familiar with it, If you want me to play a 5 - 2 bid with 1 IPC to Ger, fine. If Kar is off limits for rd 1 and 2 fine.

    Remember we had a “no strafing” rule in our first game for the first 3 rds. That was made clear, but I didn’t know Kar was off limits this game.

    I’ll play any scenerio with anyone, just as long as it is made clear prior to R1.

    As for time frame of my games, I’ll play as Axis as long as Germany holds it’s core IF Japan has control of Novo (and or Kaz and Eve), but If Japan is stuck at Yak or Sin and Germany just lost EE, then it is probably game over.

    I’ve never made any secrets about how I like longer games, when both sides are battling over position.

    I mean there are ways the Axis can win long games (obviously the Allies have the adv but still…), ie Japan helps out in Afr and gets it’s fleet to the Med, or Japan has her ftrs sitting on Ger, or you do a 1-2 late rd shot on the Atlantic fleet to maybe open the door, lots of stuff. I like games where both sides earn in the 70’s and you have to use tactics and strat to break the stalemate.

    There is lots of variety and that is fun for me, which is why I vary my moves. I don’t want to get pigeon holed and have my opponents say “Oh DM, he ALWAYS attack Ukr with 7 inf, 3 arm or always fortifies Fic instead of Man” I like variety, for no other reason then to change what the game looks like, if I lose fine, but I’m always tinkering with stuff.

    Anyway, sorry for any misunderstanding, and like I said I’m open for any game any scenerio against anybody as long as the guidlines and rules are set out and made clear.


    I see BW snuck in a post

  • Always enjoy these kind of threads. 😄

  • Moderator

    Then why did you deviate from that so greatly? Why is it that you only deviate from this against me?

    Huh? We played 1 game, and we were the opposite sides.

    There is no record of us playing. You can take the games between me CC or others al you want, but

    1. they were RR
    2. they were ADS
    3. I really am deathly afraid of AA-fire in ADS.
    4. there were more inf there, and in ADS that is a wonderful deterrant

    I rarely if ever use SBR, but in LL I found there is no threat to the bomber so you can use them all you want.
    But you would argue that I only do this against you and it some how deceitful.

    If some other player left the the same defense as you did in Kar, I’d do the samething, however I won’t be bullied into making a move.

    The key to be a good A&A player is not to be predictible. Now whenever someone plays me they have to worry about a Kar strike, or maybe they leave it as bait. Regardless, maybe this in turn forces them to leave an extra inf behind or do something slightly different giving an adv to me.

    See if we were to ever play again (which seems doubtful), you wouldn’t know if I would attack Kar or not. Maybe you set it up the same way but, this time I have my sub. Well now I don’t have to do Kar. Or maybe you try and bait me more, but instead I go for Syr, or maybe my sub retreats and I hit the US tran, or maybe I just kill the Med fleet.

    My point is I don’t ever want my opponent to know how I play. If that means I lose a game then so be it.

    Don’t forget I foolishly lost 2 or so US trns in our first game, and against Mr. G I went to Fic and gave him a shot at my Japanese trns. I play reckless at times, you would call it desperate, but I call it aggressive.

    And if you’d surrender as the Axis by rd 6 if they haven’t taken Moscow, that justifyies my move even more as well as a PE bid.

    I’ve also never said PE is unsportsman like. I said I don’t like it, because I like longer games.

    That is my whole point about a 24 bid. If you give someone 24, it’s better to just play PE and get the game over with one way or another.

    But with a 21-22 bid, then you can open up the Afr bid or split bids.

    Seriously if you’re Axis and getting 24-25, it only makes sense to go for the quick win. Why waste time in Afr? Throw down on Ukr, and go for the win. That is not fun, IMO.

    My bid was different, I gave myself many option, stay in Afr, go to Europe, I even gave Japan several options. I didn’t want you to know what I was going to do. That’s how you keep your opponent on his heals.

  • Panda, after my game with DM, would you like to play a game….I would play with 22-25(whatever I need to learn about) bid…I wouldn’t mind to get some tips and such…it would be an informal game, I don’t know if you want moves to be taken back or whatnot…we could figure that out later…but I’m just letting you know I’m up for a game…

  • Moderator

    But using a white elephant to throw someone offguard is kind of janky as well, and especially in an unranked game.

    But I only play unranked games and only play at this site. So if there is some Club etiquette where this (using different strats to set up other games) is looked down upon I’m just not familar with that.

    I would play ranked games if challeged (or someone really insisted) at FoE or whatever, but I’m not sure if I’d ever be an active club player.

    Now if I had made the defense not as strong you’d have a better case, but as I see it no player in ADS or LL would ever attack 16 units in Karelia b/c I’ve never seen it before.

    Really??? I’m being serious here. Now, I’m really intrigued.

    Cool, can we call this the DarthMaximus move? 😄
    Pass the word around the Clubs!

    Anyway, I ment no harm by my move or had no malicious intent. Remember we also had mulligans. I figured if Kar went bad I could re do it. So, I had 2 chances to come out better than avg. No that that helps much.

    I just wish you asked me to tkae it back before calling it desperate and a cheap shot or gamble.

    If you remember, you asked me to take back a move in our first game. My defense of Yak with Rus. You suggested bring over another ftr.
    While I objected at first you explained how you’d take 7 inf for 4, I may have wanted the trade at first (a may still put up a bit of a stink 😄 ), but ultimately I agreed and we played on.

    All you had to do was ask me to take it back and say how you really wanted to show how a PA game is played. I would’ve went 5-2 bid and all would’ve been dandy. But your initial comments got me in defensive mode and I will defend my moves, even if they are bad ones.

    I even went back and redid G1 on Fri, maybe I should’ve done that sooner but I was a bit ticked earlier.

    Whether you want to continue or not is up to you. I found it a bit silly that I was getting mad over an A&A game that is played on a MB. 😄

    So I’m ready to move. I’ll gladly discuss the move and it’s merits (and pros/cons) but there was no evil or vindictive intent behind it. It was just a move.

  • Moderator

    No prob. Maybe we can shoot for summer sometime.

    Its not club ettiquette its general ettiquette. If you agree to play someone you should not be playing them to set them up for something in some future game.

    Just for clarification, I don’t me you specifically, I’m not trying to “set” you up for anything. I doubt I could anyway as you’ve probably seen everything. But because most of my games are posted here for anyone to see, I figure if I always use the exact same strat that would put me at a disadvantage. My opponent could simply see that I always do something and be prepared.

    For instance I played 4 games with Kobu, while he won the first 2, I won the next 2, but all 4 games I played very very differently. One game was pretty standard, one game was tech heavy on both sides, one time I used a KJF and another was a tech game but not all out tech. The point was Kobu used the same strat all 4 games, but after the first 2 games it ceased working. I just don’t want to fall into the category of being a predictible player.

  • Panda wrote:

    there are people in the clubs who purposely make uncharacteristic moves just so that in the rematch they can throw someone off. IMO that’s a really bs way to play.

    Why is this a BS way to play? I will usually try to mix things up a bit when I play. What I do not want is for someone to be able to predict what I will do. I will not play to deliberately lose or to make stupid moves,(if you mean this then I agree) but just different things and depending on the game and my opponent perhaps even not the most optimal winning strategy. And if someone is able to throw me off in this manner, then I think I deserve it, not being able to forsee a different possible move from my opponent.

  • I almost never play the same way twice. People have criticized me in the past and said I lost games due to my not using common tactics. Of course this is true, but a game isn’t very fun if you always play the same… And that’s all this is… A game. 😄

  • @General:

    I almost never play the same way twice. People have criticized me in the past and said I lost games due to my not using common tactics. Of course this is true, but a game isn’t very fun if you always play the same… And that’s all this is… A game. 😄

    But for some people you have to win to have fun… 😄

  • Not having read all of the posts nor do i want to get too into your “spat”, i think that it was not unreasonable to go into KAR under these circumstances. It seems gutsy at the outset, but i think that when all is said and done, it’s not that bad a play. The problem is that IFF the UK liberates it right away, then RU can drop most of its inf on R2 there. That in addition to US planes would make it kind of dicey.

  • @cystic:

    Not having read all of the posts nor do i want to get too into your “spat”, i think that it was not unreasonable to go into KAR under these circumstances. It seems gutsy at the outset, but i think that when all is said and done, it’s not that bad a play. The problem is that IFF the UK liberates it right away, then RU can drop most of its inf on R2 there. That in addition to US planes would make it kind of dicey.

    The problem is…in order to liberate it they cannot go to Africa and they might not be able to take Norway…that leaves Germany with Ukr, Cau, Nor, a lot of Africa…even if Kar is liberated…and if I were Japan I would go all out against the Russians, killing everything in Yakut…even if it could cost me a fighter, or China…Russia would quickly lose IPC’s and wouldn’t be able to defend Novo because they would be forced to make all inf builds…

  • Moderator

    I posted J1. It went well to say the least.

    My intention was to attack Yak from the onset. But I could aford a ftr to spare in LL as 19 vs. 16 in attacking power is still 3 hits. So the last ftr went to China instead.

    I took Yak, Sfe, Chi, and Ind.
    I went Pearl Heavy and escaped with only one hit. So I have 2 BB’s, 1 AC and 2 ftrs there.

    My initial goal wasn’t to necessarily take Moscow, but to absolutely devestate the Russians and then as Germany to just survive long enough for Japan to pressure Moscow and take the Russians if possible.

  • could you post a map?

  • Moderator

    I don’t know how or where I could post it.

    I can email it to ya if you’re interested.

  • @DarthMaximus:

    I can email it to ya if you’re interested.

    Nah, don’t worry about it….

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