Tiger Tanks


  • Customizer

    1. Tiger Tank Battalions
    The massively powerful Tiger tanks were virtually impervious to Allied tank guns and capable of dominating the battlefield.
    You may build three tank units as Tiger tanks. A Tiger tank costs 8 IPC’s and may be built or rebuilt in Germany only. Tigers have a movement capability of 2, but cannot blitz as regular tanks.They attack and defend on a 4 or less in the opening fire step of combat. Any casualties are destroyed and removed from play, with no chance to counter-attack.

    2. Tiger Tank Battalions
    The massively powerful Tiger tanks were assigned to special heavy tank battalions to support and reinforce other units during a campaign.
    You may build three tank units as Tiger tanks. A Tiger tank costs 7 IPC’s and may be built or rebuilt in Germany only. They attack and defend on a 4 or less. Moreover a Tiger tank give one matching infantry an increased combat capability; attack on a 2 (even if supported by artillery) and defends on a 3, for the first cycle of combat only.

    3. Tigers Tanks
    The massively powerful King Tiger was virtually impervious to Allied tank guns and capable of dominating the battlefield.
    You may build three tank units as Tiger tanks, but only one per turn. Your Tigers cost 6 IPC:s, defends on a 4 and attack on a 4. Tigers may be built or rebuilt, if they are destroyed, in Germany only. One can use regular armor painted in black as Tiger tank units.

    4. Royal Tigers
    The massively powerful King Tiger was virtually impervious to Allied tank guns and capable of dominating the battlefield. A single King Tiger tank could halt the advance of a complete armored division.
    You may build three tank units as Tiger tanks, but only one per turn. Your Tigers cost 6 IPC’s, attack and defend in the opening fire step of combat. Tigers may be built or rebuilt in Germany only. One can use regular armor painted in black as Tiger tank units.

    Background
    The influence of the Tiger on Allied morale, known as Tigerphobia, was so powerful that British General Montgomery banned all reports mentioning it’s prowess in battle. Perhaps the Tiger’s greatest fame was gained in a single action in Normandy where the famous commander SS Obersturmführer Michael Wittman destroyed an entire column of 25 tanks, 14 half-tracks and 14 bren-gun carriers in a few short minutes with one Tiger. Due to Allied air superiority, the Tigers in Normandy and France were employed mainly in a static defensive role. This conserved fuel as the Tiger normally consumed huge amounts of petrol. It also kept the mechanical breakdowns to a minimum.

    Tigers were mechanically unreliable (mostly because of their weight, which strained the entire mechanical system) as compared to the Soviet T-34 or US M4-Sherman. More over they had a small radius of action in contrast to the aforementioned Allied tanks, and were so large that most terrain rendered them practically useless as breakthrough weapons for which they were manufactured. They could not cross most of the bridges in Europe, and had to be shipped by train to the battlefield (they would break down if they had to be driven for any great distance). They guzzled gasoline, were extremely slow (with an average speed of about 4-9 miles per hour on rough terrain or dirt roads - well below the stated maximum design speed of 25 mph), and had an extremely short combat radius and duration. The high kill ratios when they did engage in combat were offset by their tendency to either run out of gas or break down in combat, which resulted in large numbers having to be abandoned (more than were destroyed by Allied tanks). Also, U.S. and British forces had superior mobility due to widespread mechanization, as well as superior artillery and airpower. Because of the immobility and limited numbers of the Tiger tanks, it was possible to avoid confronting them with tanks, and instead, Allied forces would try to bypass and isolate them, or destroy them with heavy artillery or airpower.

    The Tiger’s two greatest strengths were its main gun and its heavy armor. The combination of this massive armor and powerful gun made for an almost unbeatable tank. Enemy crews often watched helplessly as their shots bounced off the Tiger and their own vehicles were quickly destroyed, often from great distances. The Tiger I was very maneuverable for its weight and size, and it was only 2km/h slower than the Panzer III and Panzer IV.However the Tigers would have been much more effective if the mechanical reliability was higher.

    Each Tiger I tank cost 800,000 Reichmarks, which was equivalent to the weekly wages of 30,000 people, and required 300,000 man-hours to produce. At those rates, the Tigers were very much high end super-weapons, equivalent on a cost basis to something like the U.S. B-29, which cost about a million dollars a piece, or a Navy destroyer.



  • By your own statistics, such a unit would need to cost 12-15 IPC as they cost as much to build as a bomber or destroyer.


  • Customizer

    @whoman69:

    By your own statistics, such a unit would need to cost 12-15 IPC as they cost as much to build as a bomber or destroyer.

    Well, considering the first variant one could always argue about the cost of 8 to 10 IPC´s, anything more than that is out of the question. Both based on history and game balance. For 8 IPC’s there is a incentive to buy a Tiger instead of two regular tanks for 10 IPC’s. I saw your discussion with 88mm, so I keep it there. I think you understand my point. Game balance is in focus! It’s much like Fortress Europe, it’s unrealistic to some extent, but it is cool and game balanced. 😉

    By the way what did you vote for and why? 😮



  • The only issue with cost is that it is an NA- so keeping it in line with free NAs is a must (Atlantic Wall, Fortress Europe, Wolfpacks etc. are all free of charge). Therefore I would vote for a reasonable charge of 6 IPCs, with no ability to blitz (choice #2 with minor changes). Can you believe after all that I was so willing to go to 6 IPCs? Good job taking an idea and running with it. I’m impressed, especially by your research.

    Please keep in mind, when making decisions about NAs, the advice I gave whoman69- you shouldn’t look at results at the end of the war to make decisions. For example- “the U.S. created X # of planes and X # of tanks during the war, so….”. Those results are based on unique circumstances that happened during the war, and choices made by leaders at the time. We as players should not be constrained by what people actually did historically. What I choose as a player to devote my resources to shouldn’t be tied in any way to decisions made by world leaders in 1942-45. I may be beating a dead horse here, but I think it’s important, as I see alot of people’s ideas influenced heavily by the way things occurred rather than by the possibilities of what could occur- a crucial difference.


  • Customizer

    @88:

    The only issue with cost is that it is an NA- so keeping it in line with free NAs is a must (Atlantic Wall, Fortress Europe, Wolfpacks etc. are all free of charge). Therefore I would vote for a reasonable charge of 6 IPCs, with no ability to blitz (choice #2 with minor changes). Can you believe after all that I was so willing to go to 6 IPCs? Good job taking an idea and running with it. I’m impressed, especially by your research.

    ….I may be beating a dead horse here, but I think it’s important, as I see alot of people’s ideas influenced heavily by the way things occurred rather than by the possibilities of what could occur- a crucial difference.

    I agree with you! However if one find a NA too powerful it’s simply not balanced. Ihave playtested #1 and #2 today (A&A:E). I must say that the response was that it is a bit too much. Maybe restrict it to 2 Tigers rather than 3, or lets say in #1 that the opening fire ability is cancelled if defending fighters are present. 6 IPC’s would not just be acceptable for the Allies, it would be almost as much over kill as Superfortresses!

    Tigers in both variants #1 and #2 were verry agressive when used all three together against anything. I used all three of them in Affrica in company with a few (4-6) infantry and a fighter. I also had my NA Blitzkrieg. Allies never had a fair chance to take hold in Affrica.

    If you have used any variant of the above mentioned I would love to here how it all came out? Playability is my focus! 😉



  • I would make the point back to 88 millimeter that the cost, as researched in this article, is what made it so that Hitler could not make more Tigers. He could have chosen to build less expensive tanks and would have kept about the same strength of armor. The game doesn’t care what kind of tank each nation used. It costs 3 ipc to make a tank unit. For game purposes, because the Germans chose to make better, more expensive tanks is irrelevant. They could make less of them, but they still make up an A+A armor unit. There’s no difference in game terms if they use Tigers or Panthers or if the Americans Shermans or Pershings.
    Because Hitler did not have the population base of the Soviets or the American, he chose the Tiger. If he had chosen Panthers instead, in game terms he would have had the same number of unit, but in reality it would be more tanks.



  • I’m not sure I can see opening fire for the Tiger. The units that have it fire in a circumstance that justifies opening fire. Subs fire a salvo from stealth, AA guns shoot as the planes are enroute to the target and battleships soften the shore before the ground troops hit it. From your post, Tigers are just tanks that are bigger and better but not necessarily first-strikers?

    No blitz and produce-in-Germany-only are both good. Sounds like Tigers don’t have the range or speed of regular tanks.

    I like #3. It is simple, which is good, and the cost vs. advantage would be worth it to me as a German player and acceptable to me as an Allied player.

    If any other advantages are given to the Tiger, what about also tacking on the disadvantage of reduced effectiveness vs. fighters, such as defending at a 3 instead of a 4?

    Additional wording option:

    You may build Tiger tanks. Tigers are tank units that attack and defend on a 4 and cost 6 IPCs. You may build one per turn only in the Germany territory, unless you already have three. Tiger tanks must be clearly designated.



  • What about transport ability? Can 1 tiger still be transported with an infantry or does its larger size and heavier weight restrict the transport’s ability to the Tiger only?



  • What about transport ability? Can 1 tiger still be transported with an infantry or does its larger size and heavier weight restrict the transport’s ability to the Tiger only?


  • Customizer

    @Ring:

    I’m not sure I can see opening fire for the Tiger. The units that have it fire in a circumstance that justifies opening fire. Subs fire a salvo from stealth, AA guns shoot as the planes are enroute to the target and battleships soften the shore before the ground troops hit it. From your post, Tigers are just tanks that are bigger and better but not necessarily first-strikers?

    No you are wrong, cause that is exactly what they are, first-strikers! In tank to tank combat, the Tigers were incredibly good at killing other tanks, reaching kill ratios up to 13:1 in many cases. Allied tanks could only knock out a Tiger at point blank were as the Tiger could take out any allied tank in a respectable range. However, because of the immobility and limited numbers of the Tiger tanks, it was possible to avoid confronting them with tanks, and instead, Allied forces would try to bypass and isolate them, or destroy them with heavy artillery or airpower.

    @Ring:

    No blitz and produce-in-Germany-only are both good. Sounds like Tigers don’t have the range or speed of regular tanks.

    Yes, I think so too!

    @Ring:

    I like #3. It is simple, which is good, and the cost vs. advantage would be worth it to me as a German player and acceptable to me as an Allied player.

    It is simple but don’t represent a super weapon to me, and that is what I would like it to be! I want it to be super cool like Superfortresses! Don’t you?

    @Ring:

    If any other advantages are given to the Tiger, what about also tacking on the disadvantage of reduced effectiveness vs. fighters, such as defending at a 3 instead of a 4?

    Well, my suggestion was that the opening fire ability is cancelled if defending fighters are present (talking about variant #1). But a change like that is first of all based on game balance, history comes in second place!

    @Ring:

    Additional wording option:

    You may build Tiger tanks. Tigers are tank units that attack and defend on a 4 and cost 6 IPCs. You may build one per turn only in the Germany territory, unless you already have three. Tiger tanks must be clearly designated.

    Well, this is exactly what my option #4 says


  • Customizer

    @KCgamer:

    What about transport ability? Can 1 tiger still be transported with an infantry or does its larger size and heavier weight restrict the transport’s ability to the Tiger only?

    Only one Tiger per transport sound reasonable to me! What do you think?



  • I like # 3…If you play with the NAs,then you MUST have some sort of tank NA for the Germans.Even though,historically, their tanks were initally inferior to the Russians’ T-34/76,the Germans need “something” to represent the later models that were so superior to anything the Allies had.



  • I supppose I am thinking of this differently. If you and I are shooting at each other from the same distance, but I can’t penetrate your armor while you can penetrate mine, I don’t really see that as first strike. I see that as a 4/4 vs. a 3/3. First strike would mean to me that you are shooting at me before I can even shoot at you. I can see the argument of ‘I can shoot at you effectively before you can shoot at me effectively’ but really that still means 4/4 vs. 3/3 to me. Just my viewpoint, not necessarily right.

    I’m not so sure if I would want them to be that cool. Superfortresses are pretty dern powerful.

    The wording was just to give you an alternate way to say it. I was hoping for simpler wording, don’t know if I achieved that or not - it was pretty clear from the get go.



  • The first strike ability is difficult for me, because even though the Tigers had outstanding kill ratios, those were in relatively close combat. A battle in Belorussia or the Ukraine, for example, covers vast distances. It is not so realistic to me that entire divisions of infantry (represented by the one or two casualties of the Tigers’ opening round fire) could be destroyed without response in such huge territories. The dice roll represents so much more than just shell range or armor- it also factors in weather, leadership, supplies and other logistics, intelligence etc. So therefore I don’t see the capacity for a Tiger unit to do that much damage without retaliation.

    Basically the only unit in the game that can do it is subs, and they have been mitigated by destroyers and vulnerability to aircraft.

    And also- so that people don’t get into a lather about “Tigers could actually do this and actually couldn’t do that…” why not just call them Heavy Armor units or something like that? Make them a little more generic so that the purists out there don’t pull their hair out… (insert emoticon implying that I’m not mean-spirited)



  • By the end of the war the US developed their own heavy tank the Persing, which they produced in 1945 at higher numbers than the Germans were able to produce during the entire war for their Tigers. Yet in Korea, the US still used Shermans. Hmm, things that make you go hmm.


  • Customizer

    @The:

    I like # 3…If you play with the NAs,then you MUST have some sort of tank NA for the Germans.Even though,historically, their tanks were initally inferior to the Russians’ T-34/76,the Germans need “something” to represent the later models that were so superior to anything the Allies had.

    Well, try this one if you just want your German tanks to be more important! It represent the supreme tactics and doctrine that German units possesed.

    Blitzkrieg
    German warfare combined the use of mobile units with the close support of airpower into a steel juggernaut emphasize speedy movement and maximization of battlefield opportunities.
    Each of your attacking fighters give one matching tank an increased attack factor of 5 or less. This pairing is on a one-to-one basis. The increased attack ability is for the first round only and is cancelled if defending fighters are present.

    If you want more NAs please take a look at “Revised Weapons Development & National Advantages” in this forum, A&A R.


  • Customizer

    Looks like #3 will be the most favored variant. I would rewrite this variant like this:

    3. Tiger Tank Battalions
    The massively powerful Tiger tanks were assigned to heavy tank battalions to support other units for special operations, to be deployed en masse for decisive shock action.
    You may build three tank units as Tiger tanks, but only one per turn. A Tiger tank attack and defends on a 4 or less. Each Tiger tank costs 6 IPC’s and may be rebuilt if destroyed. Tigers have a movement capability of 2, but cannot blitz as regular tanks.

    Any comments?

    However I will wait for at least 15 votes before any decision will be taken. But I like it! 😄



  • From the posts, I gather that Tiger tanks showed great superiority vs other tanks.

    I think it would be fair to treat them as ordinary tanks when the battlefield opponents do not have tanks.

    These special units should only have a bonus feature when fighting opposing tanks.

    You should also allow hits by their special ability to target opposing tanks at the Ger player’s discretion.


  • Customizer

    @Linkon:

    From the posts, I gather that Tiger tanks showed great superiority vs other tanks.

    I think it would be fair to treat them as ordinary tanks when the battlefield opponents do not have tanks.

    These special units should only have a bonus feature when fighting opposing tanks.

    You should also allow hits by their special ability to target opposing tanks at the Ger player’s discretion.

    Well, they were superior to anything on ground. Figthers were the only true threat and the machine it self, these tanks were very unreliable for mechanic failure!



  • Bill, I think your idea is great and it reminds me of the WAW rule on SS panzers….except they defended on a 5 or less.



  • Personally, I don’t like the idea of a limited unit that you have to keep extra track of.

    What about this:
    The last generation of german tanks were prone to mechnaical failures but when not required to risk themselves by moving, they performed quite well in defense.

    All tanks German tanks in grey territories or an immediate adjectant country defend on 4 on the first turn only.

    Kinda the tank version of Festung Europa, I know.


  • Customizer

    @thestor:

    Personally, I don’t like the idea of a limited unit that you have to keep extra track of.

    What about this:
    The last generation of german tanks were prone to mechnaical failures but when not required to risk themselves by moving, they performed quite well in defense.

    All tanks German tanks in grey territories or an immediate adjectant country defend on 4 on the first turn only.

    Kinda the tank version of Festung Europa, I know.

    I agree upon the idea of that the least of all this game need is more pieces of units on the game board! Tiger Tanks is the only exception, since they were legendary for WWII. I don’t like the idea of yours since it really doesn’t represent the Tiger Tanks. I want Tiger Tanks to be what they were, high end super-weapons.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Just label the idea in a more generic format and give the same benifit to the Soviet Union.

    Example: Tiger becomes Heavy Tanks….because the Germans had many different tanks that had the same attributes of a Tiger tank not to mention Jagdtiger, Kingtiger, tiger 1 and tiger 2…

    On the Soviet side of things they also had some goodies and should be represented as well.


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