What would happen if all IC's had unlimited production?



  • These rules result in pretty much the same strategies every time, because the factories are in the same economic areas every time.

    This statement is simply not true with regards to G40


  • Customizer

    @Uncrustable:

    These rules result in pretty much the same strategies every time, because the factories are in the same economic areas every time.

    This statement is simply not true with regards to G40

    ––I agree.

    “Tall Paul”


  • '15 Official Q&A '11 '10 Moderator

    Whatever edition of the “original” game I had, circa 1990, was unlimited production from complexes you owned at game start and limited to IPC value of territory for captured or built IC’s.
    So Russia could build unlimited in Karelia, but when Germany took it, it was limit 3.  Same for built complexes, so Allies could only build 2 or 3 units from complexes built along the Pacific rim after taking them and trying to finish off Japan (I would usually try to take one territory with each ally)


  • '16 '15 '14 Customizer

    @Uncrustable:

    These rules result in pretty much the same strategies every time, because the factories are in the same economic areas every time.

    This statement is simply not true with regards to G40

    Fair enough - haven’t played G40 enough to judge it.


  • Customizer

    @Gamerman01:

    Whatever edition of the “original” game I had, circa 1990, was unlimited production from complexes you owned at game start and limited to IPC value of territory for captured or built IC’s.
    So Russia could build unlimited in Karelia, but when Germany took it, it was limit 3.  Same for built complexes, so Allies could only build 2 or 3 units from complexes built along the Pacific rim after taking them and trying to finish off Japan (I would usually try to take one territory with each ally)

    As the US, I would wait for Japan to build an IC in Southeast Asia (which they almost always did) then take that territory and use it against them.

    As for the ICs being more or less in the same areas in Global 40, yeah that is true but you can still come up with different strategies to use them. Also, you have to remember that the game is trying in some part to be realistic in as much as what was available back in 1940. For instance, the “No ICs built on islands” rule. By the rules of building ICs, a Major IC can be built on any original territory worth 3 IPCs or more. However, it wouldn’t make much sense to have a Major IC pop up on Borneo even though Borneo is worth 4 IPCs.
    I think the somewhat limited production capabilities in this game makes a player really think about a good strategy to employ them in order to defeat your enemy. If you could simply plop down unlimited production ICs anywhere you wanted, while it might be a little fun simply overwhelming your enemy, it wouldn’t be very inventive.

    I’ve come up with something I call the Mid-Level IC. You can build 5 units per turn and it costs 20 IPCs (10 IPCs to upgrade a Minor IC to Mid-Level).
    Mid-Level ICs can only be built on territories worth 3 IPCs or more, but that includes captured territories (Allies could build a Mid-Level on Korea or Norway, Axis could build one on Manchuria or Malaya).
    Mid-Levels are downgraded to Minor upon capture, but can be upgraded back to Mid-Level next turn.
    There would be no more NEW Major ICs. Only the ones on the board from the start (plus the 3 in United States) will be allowed. Majors are downgraded to Minors upon capture, but can be upgraded to Mid-Level by capturing power next turn. If the original owner or an Ally recaptures that territory, the original owner can upgrade the factory back to a Major. This is the only case where a Major can be purchased after the game begins.
    Any Minor IC can be upgraded to a Mid-Level but ONLY if that Minor is in a territory worth 3 IPCs or more. Any territory worth 2 IPCs can only have a Minor IC.

    I am tinkering with the idea of changing the original setup by making the India IC a Mid-Level from the start.


  • '15 Official Q&A '11 '10 Moderator

    @knp7765:

    Any Minor IC can be upgraded to a Mid-Level but ONLY if that Minor is in a territory worth 3 IPCs or more. Any territory worth 2 IPCs can only have a Minor IC.

    I am tinkering with the idea of changing the original setup by making the India IC a Mid-Level from the start.

    This is what I’ve been looking for, for the league house ruled G40 project.
    I completely agree that India should not be a major IC, but a minor was too small (was thinking about a 2nd minor in West India at startup to compensate)
    I think you have found the solution to my dilemma.
    I am initially hesitant about allowing a mid-level in any territory worth 3 or more (don’t like the idea of USA building 5 a turn in Norway or Korea, or Germany building 5 a turn from Moscow, or Japan building 5 a turn from India).  I think I will stick with the rule that you can only have minors in territories you didn’t start with.

    knp, what do you think about relaxing the ban on island IC’s?  Minors only?  After round 4 or 5 or something?  I think that could be an improvement.  What do you think?


  • '16 '15 '14 Customizer

    @knp7765:

    Also, you have to remember that the game is trying in some part to be realistic in as much as what was available back in 1940. If you could simply plop down unlimited production ICs anywhere you wanted, while it might be a little fun simply overwhelming your enemy, it wouldn’t be very inventive. I’ve come up with something I call the Mid-Level IC.

    Addressing some of your statements here:

    Realism: Should this word and “Axis and Allies”  ever be used together? I mean, there is no fog of war in the game. There is no supply system. There are no weather effects. We have battleships and A/C carriers that are scaled to be over 1000 miles long compared to the map. Realism was not a big priority for Larry Harris when creating this game, I would say. More accurately, he seemed to want to make a fun game with a WWII flavor that appealed to the casual player.

    Unlimited Production: Since titling this thread and doing some game testing I have settled on the 15 IPC, 10 unit limit,  damagable (up to 20 chips) IC for all terrirories worth at least 1 IPC. This is more reasonable and allows limits on how much damage can be done and how many units can be placed. Plus you have the option of not fixing the damaged IC, that you didn’t have in classic. Now let’s say I could “plop down” these wherever there was a 1 IPC territory. Why would that overwhelm my enemy, as he would see me plop it down, and then on his turn he could plop his own down nearby. Or he could attack the territory and take over the IC before it could produce. Or he could bomb it down to where it would have to be fixed in order to produce. It would be inventive to find a good new spot for an IC and also inventive to counter that move, IMO.

    Mid-level IC: this is a nice idea but doesn’t it spring from the desire to put more stuff out where it is needed? Let’s say you have an IC that can only produce 3 units per turn. I say this does not produce more realism- it only produces more of a differnt kind of unrealism. For example, say I have a minor IC in Cairo. I can only put 3 things out there every turn. I also see I’m i danger of being attacked there. Because I can only put out three things, I won’t buy three infantry. They only defend at 2. I’m going to put three expensive fighters out there that defend at 4. Even though realism says fighters do not hold ground at all - infantry do. Within a few rounds I’ve got six to 9 fighters in Egypt, no infantry. And I’m thinking - “Wow - this is much more realistic” huh?

    The way to get around the thinking that “this is unrealistic” is to think of your ICs like Larry Harris originally did - they were IC/supply centers. Not necessarily making the units on site, but being a gateway for them to be placed. This is how historically the Allies were able to put over 100,000 men in Morocco (gasp - it’s only worth 1 IPC) without the Axis even knowing it was coming. Because in reality transports were not 750 miles long and could not be seen from space like they are in this game. Many were not seen and could bring a lot of firepower where needed - to me this is what the IC/supply center represents.

    In our current game I am playing the British and my German opponent has just taken Gibraltar. This means the Atlantic is open to him. Brazil is empty. If we don’t do something, we know it is possible he could break out into the Atlantic with his transport and DD, land in Brazil, and put an IC in there that would seriously threaten the USA. (It’s only a serious threat if he can put a significant amount of German units out, though.) All of the sudden you have a potential game changer and the Allies have got to respond in a different part of the world. Now to me that’s entertainment!


  • Customizer

    Guys,

    Game Balance….
    is a phrase you should be concerned with, and should be the primary concern in this GAME.
    ––And IMHO you’re tinkering is completely upsetting that. Just my (and most every experienced gamer’s) opinion.

    “Tall Paul”


  • '16 '15 '14 Customizer

    And how is game balance threatened when both sides can do the same thing? It may upset game tradition, but I don’t see how it hurts game balance. The Brits put a large capacity IC in South africa. Hmmm…the Germans put a large capacity IC in North Africa. Now you’re both fighting somewhere else. Where’s the imbalance?


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