Real value of units


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    If I take you on words IL:
    Quote
    SB @3 and a 3-3 unit is too powerful at 10

    Cruiser A3D3M2, just compare to an existing unit…

    Fighter: A3D4M4C10, give +1A to TcB (and can “SB @3” every round: A3)  wink

    The cruiser also has shore bombard at 3, other units don’t get this. Plug in combat results with say 6 cruisers vs. 9 Destroyers at oob prices. Then do same study with CA costing 10 ( change quantity of cruisers in combat to 8 vs.10 Destroyers). Note swing in results, then consider SB value.

    Fighters should not be used in comparison, they can fly over land or sea. Ships cant.

    Just compare DD and CA.


  • 2017 2016

    @Imperious:

    The cruiser also has shore bombard at 3, other units don’t get this. Plug in combat results with say 6 cruisers vs. 9 Destroyers at oob prices. Then do same study with CA costing 10 ( change quantity of cruisers in combat to 8 vs.10 Destroyers). Note swing in results, then consider SB value.

    Fighters should not be used in comparison, they can fly over land or sea. Ships cant.

    Just compare DD and CA.

    Plug in combat results with say 6 cruisers vs. 9 Destroyers

    Overall %*: A. survives: 17.6% D. survives: 81% No one survives: 1.4%

    Change quantity of cruisers in combat to 8 vs.10 Destroyers

    Overall %*: A. survives: 45.5% D. survives: 52.6% No one survives: 1.9%

    The cruisers at 10 IPCs is still on the loosing side.

    The DDs have still 7% more chance to survive the battle.

    About Shore Bombardment:
    If there is any combat in the SZ, then it is forfeited and Cruiser isn’t better than DDs.

    What was your point?

    Maybe Destroyers need some kind of Shore Bombardment?
    As it was historically the case…
    (I just saw a documentary on the importance of DD shore bombardment along the Normandy’s beaches during D-day. They save many US soldiers lives with their 5" guns.
    Some captains (doing Shore bombardment against their orders) even get so near the beaches that the DD’s hull touch the bottom under the water.)

    I just found my older thread on this topic:
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=30249.msg1091515#msg1091515


  • 2017 2016

    @Imperious:

    If I take you on words IL:
    Quote
    SB @3 and a 3-3 unit is too powerful at 10

    Cruiser A3D3M2, just compare to an existing unit…

    Fighter: A3D4M4C10, give +1A to TcB (and can “SB @3” every round: A3)  wink

    Fighters should not be used in comparison, they can fly over land or sea. Ships cant.

    You know, I was just kidding you because you only say: “unit” instead of “sea unit”.

    Clearly, everybody knows that a Fighter put on a Carrier, is always a better investment than a dummy Cruiser because, as you say:

    they can fly over land or sea. Ships cant.

    And they get 2 additional moves.
    And they can also be part of the amphibious assault supporting ground units even if their was a battle in the SZ.

    Very much more powerful than a Cruiser which would be a the same cost.

    I still wonder how:

    is your way of coming to this number of 10.5 IPC/ cruiser?

    So rounding up to 11 IPCs.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Recollection of old arguments. Cruiser at 9 brings it closer.


  • 2017 2016

    @Amon-Sul:

    Bats should be able to kill a unit, without it being able to return fire.

    This particular point was discuss at the beginning of this Thread:
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31177.msg1137233#msg1137233

    But I think it’s started here:
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=28725.msg1137029#msg1137029

    By the way, this whole thread talk a lot about AA Guns and Cruisers.
    But it is only on this present one, the first time that I introduce the idea of a 3 IPCs AAA units targeting 2 planes instead of 3.
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31933.msg1253951#msg1253951

    Hope you can find something to add to your thoughts in these older threads.


  • 2017 2016

    @Imperious:

    Recollection of old arguments. Cruiser at 9 brings it closer.

    True. That’s why, I tried to emphasized on different aspects.

    What do you mean here?

    Cruiser at 9 brings it closer.

    9 IPCs, so you are making a joke.  😄
    Or 9 Destroyers or 9 cruisers, still not sure about what you mean’t.  :?

    And about the 10.5 IPCs/cruiser,
    I’m not trolling.
    I can’t truly remember what was your way of cost calculation to get this price.
    It is not rhetorical, you can make a point.  🙂


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    In Battle calculator you now have 9 destroyers and 8 cruisers ( given a new cost of 9 for CA). The margin is very close.


  • 2017 2016

    @Imperious:

    In Battle calculator you now have 9 destroyers and 8 cruisers ( given a new cost of 9 for CA). The margin is very close.

    Hi IL,
    you probably mishandle something 'cause I get these results on the AACalc from the Forum:

    8 Cruisers vs 9 Destroyers (10 000 times):

    Overall %*: A. survives: 65% D. survives: 33.1% No one survives: 1.9%

    The Cruiser is now crushing DD.

    It can’t be balance to put CA at 9 IPCs.


  • 2017 2016

    @Baron:

    On AAA units, don’t know if it is a general observation and if all players agreed that there is very few AAA buying.

    Maybe this unit is statistically balance in itself (power against planes/cost) but in the overall strategy it gets in competition with Inf A1D2C3 and Art A2D2C4 and for 1 more IPC, you get a unit blitzing up to 2 spaces: Tank A3D3C6.

    Maybe the power of a AAA unit should be reduce and his cost also, to be more attractive.
    I’m thinking something like an AAA unit working as OOB but against only 2 planes but at a 3 IPCs cost.
    So when you get 2 AAA for 6 IPCs you get 2 hits and can defend against up to 4 planes.
    AAA A0D0M1C3 1 hit, get 1 preemptive strike @1 against up to 2 planes, whichever is less.


    Against planes it is just a little bit better:
    2 OOB AAAs A0D0C10, 2 hits, can target up to 6 planes on the first round.
    3 modified AAAs A0D0C9, 3 hits, can target up to 6 planes on the first round.

    Here I have a more drastic way to get a larger number of AAA unit but at a lower cost, being this way much more interesting to buy.
    It will be less effective than the regular OOB but I’d like a comment of your part.

    AAA A0D0M1C2 1 hit, can make up to 1@1 preemptive shot per plane at the beginning of a combat.


    On balance:

    Against planes, it is just a little weaker but have much more hits:
    2 OOB AAAs A0D0C10, 2 hits, can target up to 6 planes on the first round.
    5 cheap AAAs A0D0C10, 5 hits, can target up to 5 planes on the first round.

    And vs my previous version:
    2 modified AAAs A0D0C6, 2 hits, can target up to 4 planes on the first round.
    3 cheap AAAs A0D0C6, 3 hits, can target up to 3 planes on the first round.

    It is a 2 IPCs units, it is clearly affordable but much weaker than OOB AAA.
    But is it too affordable?
    Don’t forget that this unit at A0D0 have only a casualty value nothing else.

    It can go down to a 4 IPCs unit and attack only up to 2 planes, but it still seems too weak and expensive.
    It doesn’t have the appeal of a Mech Inf nor an Art.
    That’s why I first lower the cost to 3 IPCs.
    Maybe any 2 IPCs unit (even at A0D0) creates a too much bigger defensive change in the game dynamics.


    Finally, on simplicity:

    By going 1 unit : up to 1 plane maximum, the ratio is simple and it becomes like all other A&A units which can only fire at 1 unit per roll.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    you probably mishandle something 'cause I get these results on the AACalc from the Forum:

    i was reading the results incorrectly. I don’t use the calculators in general. I was looking at average IPC loss and i added in 3 BB per side, not just win %.

    Well even if Cruisers are 9 IPC and Destroyers are 8, it just proves it cant be balanced by cost.

    Which brings us back to the original point, that you must give the CA another value. Sims do not solve all problems.


  • 2017 2016

    @Imperious:

    you probably mishandle something 'cause I get these results on the AACalc from the Forum:

    i was reading the results incorrectly. I don’t use the calculators in general. I was looking at average IPC loss and i added in 3 BB per side, not just win %.

    Well even if Cruisers are 9 IPC and Destroyers are 8, it just proves it cant be balanced by cost.

    Which brings us back to the original point, that you must give the CA another value. Sims do not solve all problems.

    We both agree that Cruiser can’t be at 9 IPCs vs DDs at 8. Cruiser becomes too Over Powered.
    We both agree that Cruiser at 10 are not 50%-50% with DDs at 8 IPCs and that DDs have a slightly better hand.

    But how this 2 statements can prove or disprove that DD and Cruiser can’t be balanced by cost?

    And, sorry, I’m not sure to understand what you really mean by “balanced by cost”.

    When you say “you must give the CA another value…”, you thought “…than 10 IPCs”? Is it right?


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    And, sorry, I’m not sure to understand what you really mean by “balanced by cost”.

    That means to prove the Cruiser cost changes at either 12, 11, 10 , or 9 does not balance it with Destroyer based on combat sims. Thats why you need the first solution i offered, which is to give it a special value. So no more combat sims or %… they don’t work here.

    Do you understand?



  • @Imperious:

    And, sorry, I’m not sure to understand what you really mean by “balanced by cost”.

    That means to prove the Cruiser cost changes at either 12, 11, 10 , or 9 does not balance it with Destroyer based on combat sims. Thats why you need the first solution i offered, which is to give it a special value. So no more combat sims or %… they don’t work here.

    Do you understand?

    has anyone brought up the idea that destroyers are the ones that are to powerful and maybe they are the ones that need adjusting? Think about IPC for IPC destroyers are better than everything else.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Yes that was done before. Issue is the DD has alot of special abilities that cant be solved with battle sims. Of course, if he could not stop subs, negate the first strike of subs and just rolled at 2 at SB, we could compare BB, CA, and DD.

    If the DD was reduced in cost, the fight of 8 subs attacking against 7 DD gives the subs advantage, reverse gives the DD advantage. So again we are not about to make the DD 7 IPC, or nobody buys subs anymore.

    I think the cruiser problem is possibly solved by making it a 4-3-2-12 ( one hit unit), or alternatively, if the Cruiser is fighting any smaller ship, it attacks at +1 ( only against DD, CV, SS)


  • 2007 AAR League

    @Yavid:

    @Imperious:

    And, sorry, I’m not sure to understand what you really mean by “balanced by cost”.

    That means to prove the Cruiser cost changes at either 12, 11, 10 , or 9 does not balance it with Destroyer based on combat sims. Thats why you need the first solution i offered, which is to give it a special value. So no more combat sims or %… they don’t work here.

    Do you understand?

    has anyone brought up the idea that destroyers are the ones that are to powerful and maybe they are the ones that need adjusting? Think about IPC for IPC destroyers are better than everything else.

    subs and ACs are better sometimes.

    cruisers and bats are those that should be changed/improved.


  • 2017 2016

    @Imperious:

    I think the cruiser problem is possibly solved by making it a 4-3-2-12 ( one hit unit), or alternatively, if the Cruiser is fighting any smaller ship, it attacks at +1 ( only against DD, CV, SS)

    If we open this Pandora’s Box then:
    Revised Cruiser A4D4M2C12, 1 hit, shore bombardment 1@4

    It is the price to have a competitive unit but still be weaker than DD or BB.
    Of course, this assumption is based on the % survival in BattleCalc.

    About giving a bonus toward enemy’s unit, it adds a lot of problems against multi-ships fleet. This need to be solved.

    I’ve summarized many options for cruiser here, but your idea need more tuning before I put it there:
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32165.msg1236708#msg1236708


Log in to reply
 

Suggested Topics

  • 4
  • 16
  • 9
  • 65
  • 4
  • 118
  • 5
  • 18
I Will Never Grow Up Games
Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures
Dean's Army Guys

43
Online

13.6k
Users

33.9k
Topics

1.3m
Posts