Poll: German First Turn Build

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Hi Apolaris,

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good thread

@AgentSmith:

1. Keep BB and original transport by Italy along with the purchased transport which makes for a moderate sized Navy.

But it will certainly end up a waste. As the Brits I would land ftrs in Cauc, and reinforce with Russians once this happens this fleet is toast. If it moves to the Atlantic its killed and if it stays in the med it is also killed. The problem I have is what does this do get you 2more infantry in Africa. By the way Germany doesn’t need or shouldn’t place large amounts of troops in Africa. Africa should be a distraction/sidebar, so that when the Allies go to retake it Germany can squeeze Karelia. Anymore than that is a waste. Further if you miss my sub I will send a bmb sub versus this fleet, and you’ll end up getting very little for your investment.

I could not disagree more with this statement. Adding up africa all together Germany stands to pick up 10 IPC from England, would you let the US give up western america w/o a strugle? Of course not. And as to how you would sink the German navy… How do you propose to keep pressure on Germany if you move the English air force to caucus? Or, how do you propose to protect the english navy w/o that air power… Because I can assure you, I will use the whole of the German air force to sink that navy in the English Channel.

It is possible to do suicde missions to sink the transport (use the UK bomber intending to land it in gibralter or an equally usafe place), and many times when I play Germany that occurs because the people I play with know I want africa, AND know I CAN NOT BE DEFEATED AS LONG AS I HOLD AFRICA! I have played this game since 85… Not once have I lost as Germany while still holding Africa.

2 infantry a turn is not a lot of $ to spend to secure 10 IPC, and deny England 10 IPC. Not to mention this money does not simply disapear, you have a force in Africa that MUST be taken out in order for you to beat me, and once secured… I will make it cost you to take Africa back. I have the advantage of location, any landing on the coast can be met with fighters from Eurupe. You must land a force capable of withstanding a counter attack AND a navy that can protect those transports. That is a lot of $ to spend.

No way. No good Allied player is going to let that fleet just roam around. I would advise to always make it priority number one in the first few turns. If it costs 1-2 aircraft sobeit.

The question is not whether you will let it happen, it is a question of what are you willing to do to stop it? Because I for one will not let my navy, and hence my $ in Africa go easily. And I have the benefit of both location and time. I own the airfields in Africa, and in time I will have all of Africa if you do not do something drastic to stop me.

AS:

Africa is different then W. USA. A) It is many more territories. B) It is not next to my capital.

Also, I may give Germany all of Africa if I think I can take Berlin before it will be a major factor.

The question is not whether you will let it happen, it is a question of what are you willing to do to stop it? Because I for one will not let my navy, and hence my $ in Africa go easily. And I have the benefit of both location and time. I own the airfields in Africa, and in time I will have all of Africa if you do not do something drastic to stop me.

I disagree I think that the Germans don’t have the luxury of time, but many players make the mistake of assuming they do. I always assume a second turn drop of troops in Alg by the Allies. Therefore it is vital that Germany control Kenya, IEA, and Syria by G2. As the Allies if you can do anything to prevent 1-2 of these from remaining German after g2 then the Allies are going to win back Africa. What’s more in order for Germany to protect its fleet it must be willing to sacrifice itself in Africa, but if the Allies want they can kill it regardles. Consider that the fleet moves to the BlkSz the Brits can still likely attack with a bb sub bmb which gives them a strong chance to dispose of this fleet cheaply. Should Russia be able to hold the Cauc after g1 then the Uk can land its air there on B1 and get a very favorable battle with 3ftrs bmb versus bb trn. Even should the Germans build trannies they are likely dead.

Also, I may give Germany all of Africa if I think I can take Berlin before it will be a major factor.

But in our game this proved to be a major error didn’t it.

In our game I didn’t exactly have a choice until turn 3 and by then it was too late.

But if I recall you landed troops on turn 2, but just didn’t use them in subsequent turns.

I landed on 2 and 3. Needed enough force to win before leaving the beach head.

Depends on if any special rules are in play or not. I think either 10 inf or 9 inf+ 1 armor would the best two of those choices. There are times when you want to have another fighter or more armor. If Russia is playing it safe with buying all Infantry on turn 1, you’ll need to stick to mostly Infantry and Armor with the occassional Figther thrown in the mix. All of the buying choices after turn 1 depends on how much of Africa you own.

@Jennifer:

AS:

Africa is different then W. USA. A) It is many more territories. B) It is not next to my capital.

Also, I may give Germany all of Africa if I think I can take Berlin before it will be a major factor.

This is not the reality of the game… First off, you won’t take Berlin by me spending 2 infantry a turn to fight in Africa, it is not a possibility. 2nd, with the loss of Africa and the middle east Britian (esp India) will be making 15 or so IPC a turn, effectively neutralizing any real pressure coming from them to cross the channel.

It takes 2 infantry a turn and agressive use of your airforce to knock the UK into submission. The only real threat my German fleet will ever be under is a suicide mission with a bomber to maybe kill my transport. Why would I move my ships into the Black sea? If I attack Caucus I will do it from Ukraine. Not to metion, caucus is nowhere near as important as Karelia, and that is where I focus my attention.

I can all but guarantee you (and only dice rolls hold me back from saying guarantee) that if you do not fight me in Africa at all I will win the game. My first turn every fighter I own attacks the UK fleet (with my navy) in the med and atlantic destroying almost all of it (if not all of it) before it can consolidate. So the UK starts with almost nothing. I than drop off my 2 infantry in Africa and push there insuring that not only does UK not have any pieces, I have taken away its ability to produce more pieces. 15 IPC a turn is a minimal threat to Germany.

For the price of maybe 2 fighters and 2 infantry a turn I have taken the UK out of the game. If you do not try to either put an IC in Africa, or focus somehow on taking it back from me… UK is a 15 IPC threat to me, which is laughable esp. since I am making 40+ IPC.

It is pretty easy to keep the russians at bay when I only have maybe 2 infantry (and I land my planes in Western for defense and possible attack, leaving 1 in eastern for possible swaps with Russia - and the bomber is there as well for that purpose) in Western at any given time because England is not longer a creditable threat to me.

You can try to sugar coat it all you like, but 10 IPC a turn off England and 10 IPC onto Germany will change the game.

And keep in mind as well, Russia does not have much in the way off offense in the begining. My typical buy with Germany is 5 inf, 1 tank, 1 fighter. Russia buys 8 infantry more often than not. He can not attack me with those numbers, and every part of my buy will be there to defend my eastern border as I destroy britian and gain ground in Africa which will tip the scales IPC wise so far in my favor that Russia will have no chance to compete with me when I decide to make my move there.

I have never lost a game playing Germany while I still held Africa. And I have been playing this game since it came out in 85.

Oh, and the fact that it is many more territories than Western US is a bonus. it Makes it that much harder for the allies to take back once I have it.

2nd, with the loss of Africa and the middle east Britian (esp India) will be making 15 or so IPC a turn, effectively neutralizing any real pressure coming from them to cross the channel.

This is a major reason why I don’t advocate operations in Africa which are designed to hold it. First the Brits at 15 are not much weaker than they are at 21 or 24. Secondly, the assumption that they cannot pressure WE/Germany the same is ridiculous, they can still use placed troops in Karelia along with newly purchased troops to hit WE therefore the Germans can decrease their commit there either. In essence then nothing is gained. What’s more even if the Uk controls all of Africa they will only be at 27, assuming they build 4 trannies they will be ‘overproducing’ for their means which is no big deal. However, it is very possible for the Japs with Nz,Mad,Aust,India and Persia to keep the Uk at a mere 24ipcs even with all of Africa. So very little is gained if Germany clings to it.

This is not the reality of the game… First off, you won’t take Berlin by me spending 2 infantry a turn to fight in Africa, it is not a possibility.

But 2inf a turn is very expensive of a committment to make, what’s more the Allies can easily counter this, and make it so M84 is the only way the Axis can win. Should the Allies tech ie Hbombers even this will not be possible. 2inf a turn after 4 turns is 8inf. 8inf in Europe could be the difference between a successful lurch towards Moscow which likely means the game. I look at it like this if Germany can quickly gain and consolidate in Africa they can make it so when the Allies are finally able to begin digging Germany out the Germans can make up for this lost income in Cauc and Karelia which is far more dangerous for the Allies than anything Germany could do in Africa. Germany w/o Africa but with Karelia, Cauc, FinNor is still at 36. Germany with all of Africa excluding FwAfr, FeQ, Alg, and Libya is at 36. However with my way Germany is considerably stronger in Europe. Yes 2inf a turn won’t cost you the game right away, but it will prevent you from winning it.

The only real threat my German fleet will ever be under is a suicide mission with a bomber to maybe kill my transport.

I disagree I think that if Russia plays its cards right on R1 Germany will have to concede either a sub or a bb to the Uk on G1, and that alone is enough to destroy a bb trn. Even so if the Uk lands its air in Cauc on B1 they can attack the German fleet with 3ftrs bmb on B2 and thereby wipe out the German navy, and for the mere cost of 1 ftr.

I can all but guarantee you (and only dice rolls hold me back from saying guarantee) that if you do not fight me in Africa at all I will win the game. My first turn every fighter I own attacks the UK fleet (with my navy) in the med and atlantic destroying almost all of it (if not all of it) before it can consolidate. So the UK starts with almost nothing. I than drop off my 2 infantry in Africa and push there insuring that not only does UK not have any pieces, I have taken away its ability to produce more pieces. 15 IPC a turn is a minimal threat to Germany.

But you assume that the Allies will not regain much of Africa, the US can land in FwAfr and then hit SAfr on the next turn. It then becomes very hard for Germany to successfully defend Africa from the South and the West and the Allies can deprive them of much of the production therein. What’s more the Germans should not be able to destroy all of the Uk navy. Should russia go with their sub to the SpainSz the Germans will be all but forced to concede either a bb or a sub in the Med. Killing the bb would require the additional loss of a ftr or a trn both of which are acceptable as the Germans are already likely to lose 1 in the UkSz. Germany with only 3 air is not powerful enough to leverage its hold on Africa against Karelia.

You can try to sugar coat it all you like, but 10 IPC a turn off England and 10 IPC onto Germany will change the game.

But the issue is can Germany afford 2inf a turn into Africa, and can they expect to even be able to do that I say no. One trick I like to employ as the Allies when Africa looks tough to crack, which by the way it rarely is, is land in Spain with the Uk/US this forces the Germans back to defend WEuro which thereby reduces the pressure upon Russia considerably. What’s more should the Uk position its fleet in the WMed it is poised on its next turn to attack AES, Syria, Libya, FeQ etc. With the US in WAfr able to hit SAfr Germany will not be able to hold both and will have to concede on to me. Once this decision is made the Allies can reinvigorate the Uk with cash, but also gain a foothold to finally kick Germany out of Africa for good.

I have never lost a game playing Germany while I still held Africa. And I have been playing this game since it came out in 85.

How many games online have you played? I’ve lost games where Germany held Africa until the end, and they usually revolved around the Allies getting tech b/c of a planned tech strat which I couldn’t counter b/c I was

There are always other strategies than the tried and true methods of winning for both sides. I would say that the majority of games that played with Axis victories, henged on how well Germany does in Africa early on and how many losses they suffered on the Russian front. If Germany takes Africa early and is able to take Kar by turn 2-3 they have a good shot at winning. It also depends on how much pressure Japan is able to put on Russia and the U.S.

8 inf and a transport for southern europe. You have to control Africa, and the transport will help big time.

8 inf and a transport for southern europe. You have to control Africa, and the transport will help big time.

what would you do for dice rolls?

maybe it’s a hypothetical question. :P

LOL…