German 15th Army Reinforces Battle in Normandy

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    I read bodyguard of lies over a decade ago… I was confused about the order of events, thank you for clarifying operation mincemeat in my memory!

    That said, the allies used a series of deception methods ahead of D-Day

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fortitude

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bodyguard

    See operation Fortitude, which was part of Operation Bodyguard (Which I thought was outlined in the book?)


  • Hi Aequitas. I enjoyed reading your thoughts. I wi not discount that there may have been a few who favoured  peace with the West; they may also have been able to sabotage the things you mention.
    That said, I think Fortitude was the main reason for the 15th Army’s remaining were it was.

    Let us also  not forget that the V1 Rocket sites were in the Pas de Calais, so the Germans could not pull out of there for fear they would lose them.


  • Hi Wittmann,
    I know, with the comment:
    @aequitas:

    If the 15th Army would have been sent ,the Allies would have found them self defeated and back in the water!

    The Beachheads weren’t that stable so that they could (AeV fixed) be knocked out, they still needed supplies and reinforcments.
    But it basicly depends on how you properly act on a actual threat.

    I wanted to demonstrate that any German Force could break up the whole Invasion.
    There were so many chances to cause the Invasion to fail, but shear luck doesn’t justify how a lot of things happend.

    Deception, hmm happend on both sides and I did not go into detail for that in my previews comments, because it is not the Focus on what I’m reffering to.
    Besides the questions I raised are not staying in any contact to any deception at all.


  • Air power and mechanical problems getting to the assembly areas was a problem for the tank battalions.
    Two companies of the 101SS reached the flank of Panzer Lehr with 14 operational tanks on the 12th June having left  their position East of Paris with 30.

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Keep in mind that all the “best” troops, were grinding Russians up on the eastern front.

    And slave labour wasn’t as reliable as it used to be.


  • @Gargantua:

    Keep in mind that all the “best” troops, were grinding Russians up on the eastern front.

    And slave labour wasn’t as reliable as it used to be.

    Bloody Frenchies. Anybody would have thought they were badly treated by the occupying Germans
    They never had it so good!

    Some of those “best” troops were close enough to shake a few British tail feathers.
    Anyone who had fought in Russia was going to give his best in Normandy, especially when told that this was the one theatre that could reverse the situation.
    Push the Western Allies into the sea and the war could still be won.


  • I´m just reading Anthony Bevoor´s “D-Day”.

    The 15th army would have severed as a perfect obstacle in case the allied had made landing at Pas-de-Calias. But it was one with it´s equippepment, training etc. Just there, not ably to move and engage effectivly in combat in a field combat. 15th army was a 10 inf. div. army fied with their coastal artellry batteries and defense positions.

    It consided of 10 infantry divisions, trained to defend this particulary area, which was military logical, not due to Operation Fortitud. This part of the coast could not being left undefended.

    Instead the Germans send their reiforcements from ALL other fronts, not only weakining the already falling-apart Army Group centre in Belarussia.

    Those , mostly SS (Panzer) divisions and high quality Wehrmacht divisions, made up for the most effective defense of a small territory that has become legendary in the military history.

    The infantry divisions from 15th army, at most 50% where realistic to move to Normandy, since such strategic area can¿t be left without ANY defence at all!

    Hence that leaves us with max. 5 infantry divisions entering the Normandy front.

    They could have been deployed on the american sector, thus slowing down, uphelding Cobra, but since after they eventually where being used up, the same sitation would acure: a thin german front, without reserves. maybe max. 1 month it could had baught the germans, max, probably less! This since more troops would have triggered Hitler to order suicide-counteroffensives like that on Mortain before 1-2 times, and hence using up this reinforecements rapidly.

    Eberbach, Rommel and other commanders trying to assemble panzer offensives, as they had done before on othyer theaters in Rusia, france, Africa, Italy, started several and almost everone where quickly broken up by allied naval artillery, fighter-bombers and the actual dedication to combat that allied troops showed, while defending, even it´s true that fresh troops where utterly ineffective in the allied offensive operations around Caen, Carentian and on the west wing on the american sector.

    Wehrmacht defending Normandy 6th June-14 August was an incredible military achivement. A “normal” defending force of that strength in number of infantry, motorzied units, aircraft, panzer, would have fallen apart in a few weeks, if not days!

    But throwing the Allies into the sea again…¡Imposible! Giving the numerous examples that when elit forces tried it. Defence, yes, almost, just almost unbreakable, but large scale-counteroffensives= ¡Imposible!

    This was also calculated by the western Allies. They knew that the Red Army was going to start a huge offensive which would tie down to bulk of the already exhuasted Wehrmacht, hence 143 was to early, certain of holding a bridgehead and continuing in 1944 from that, yes. But Allied commanders and policymakes thought it, especially after Stalingrad and Kursk, that it was better that the Red Army did the bulk of the work, hence saving approx. 300,000 allied soldiers causalties and material, much of it used up insted by the Red Army, but saving Brittish and American lives ( plus all other nations involved).

    When The Allied invaded France in 1944 they KNEW that would win. Luftwaffe was erradicated, Wehrmacht could  NOT move daytime if hardly at all, the Red Army was soon to start Operation Bagration, pushing hard right onto Berlin!

    So, as allied with Sviet at that time, 1943 would have been the best military option, insted of lurking around in remote Africa and Italy with practcally no chance of really hearting the Third Reich, just diverting some troops from the Russian front.

    Head on attacks, on France, Belgium, Holland, Denmark and especially Norway costs would have cost a lot more, but also made a much more damage to the German military potenial. This if the Brittish (and Americans) had continued bombing the Ruhr area as they did march-oct 1943, when they insted turned to bombing Berlin, the most terrible mistake in the war! Adam Tooze wright that if this “Battle of The Ruhr” had continued German steel and coal production would have been reduced to such low levels that the Wehermacht would be put out of supply of steel in a couple a months or at most a year, making it hardly impossible for Germany to produce military equipment!!!

    I have before thought that halting the 15th army had a great impact, but it did not. if the Allied had choosen to land at both Normandy and then at Pas-de-Calais it would had been meeting a formidable defense force, inflicting heavy cualsties among the landing allied troop, on ships, aircraft, but they where tied to their fixed costal positions and only effective there- not as reinforcements in Normandy.


  • @Gargantua:

    Keep in mind that all the “best” troops, were grinding Russians up on the eastern front.

    And slave labour wasn’t as reliable as it used to be.

    Not all but many…

    Of any new designed German weapon come up to a few hundreds of dead slave workers who helped building it  :-(.
    (or sabotaging it ,psst just whisper)


  • Thank you for your first post MatiasH.
    I confess I own Beevor’s D-Day, but started and did not finish it.
    Normandy is one of my favourite WW2 subjects.
    I cannot remember why I put down the book; must have seen another title  and started that!


  • Lets not all forget that the true implications to landing on Normandy that day were to secure Western Europe from falling under communistic or anti western governments. The outcome of the war was long decided by this point. As to the theory’s of German cooperation with western allies, it would make sense as the looming threat from the east was in process of advancing the greatest force of manpower ever assembled in history of all wars. Following Kursk the Russians were well on their way to reaching Berlin first, which worried not only the Germans but also the western powers.

  • 2024 2023 '22

    @aequitas-et-veritas

    I think you overestimate Germany’s ability to not get fooled.

    Germany was fooled several times-just look at what the Soviets did:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwj7mfyEm_3zAhVeJzQIHWXCB54QFnoECAUQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FRussian_military_deception&usg=AOvVaw3hgbVBMWuU26iUG3iTRmQK

    If you’re saying D-Day and the deception in Operation Bagration (and all the other times on the Eastern Front) was all due to betrayal, it should be well known.

    In response to your questions, there are several clear answers:

    Most German submarines were destroyed by now, and the rest would have been near Pas De Calais, where Germany expected the Allies to land.

    And there were German naval units in Normandy-several torpedo boats, or E-boats, which sunk a Norwegian destroyer, the only German naval victory on D-Day. There were also these German naval assets at Normandy: 3 torpedo boats, 29 fast attack craft, and 72 minesweepers. If there truly was sabotage these would have disappeared as well, and the secret traitor would not have been uncovered anyway by the Nazis if we don’t even know his identity today.

    The stripping of Luftwaffe and anti aircraft assets were probably done to reinforce the forces in the Defence Of The Reich campaign, after the Big Week which drove German aircraft numbers down to irreplaceable levels:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Week

    As for the ordering of targeting devices from Normandy, it’s the same reason why Rommel left for his wife: Inaccurate German weather reports.

    As for the two agents or spies your were talking about, one of them was a double agent (like Germany’s entire spy network in Britain), and simply bad luck and quarrelling at higher levels in the German command prevented them from using potentially important information from the other agent.

    I cannot find evidence about the problems with the Panzer Lehr Division that you talked about, but I do believe you on this information.

    The Allies were much stronger than thought-analysis shows that even if Germany was able to get the full plan from a dead body after the Exercise Tiger disaster (which involved an attack by Germans ships against troops preparing for D-Day), and Germany transferred all of the Fifth Panzer Army to the beaches, and Rommel stayed, the Allies could not have been repelled-shore bombardment and air power would have broken up panzer forces enough to prevent a collapse. The war would have simply lasted longer, or the Soviet would have conquered more of Germany.

    Honestly, I find it quite interesting that you came up or mentioned this theory, as it makes for good discussion. I hope we have some great discussions about the German side of D-Day!

    Finally, as for the original question, the Fifthteenth Army was eventually used at Normandy, where it was devastated as well as at the Falaise Pocket. The main problem with Operation Market Garden were the Allies not taking seriously Dutch resistance intelligence the fact that German panzer divisions were refitting right where the Allies were going to land. I think if the Fifthteenth Army was at Normandy on the first day, it might have been much harder for the Allies, as they would not have stablished as secured beachheads.

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