Are bombers broken? : Axis bombers lead to allied dismay.


  • I am more or less 100% sure you are not even getting to bryansk, and you are never holding it. against a pure bomber strat like this, I am building artillery.

    You Dow russia on G2, killing 0 units,

    My russian beginning army is ; 27 I, 3Art, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 Tac.
    R1 build; 3 I and 7 A
    After R1 it is ; 30 I, 10 Art, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 tac. you will not kill anything when you declare, because I wont let you hit anything
    after R2 I will have 33 I, 17 A, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, I already have a bigger land army than you are planning on having after G5

    at the end of R4, I should have at least 40 I, 25 A, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 tac and 4 AAs in bryansk.  I can also have the british using their ftrs to prevent you from stratting moscow.

    what is worse is that your bombers will never help you on defence. If the german army of 44 units stands in belo and I can hit with 70+ units, it really does not matter what your units are.

    you are never taking bryansk then with your 44 landunits + 16 planes.

  • Customizer

    @JamesAleman:

    First 4 rounds all bombers and 1 carrier….later a bomber or two plus a few mech as needed

    I am curious about this strategy. First, why the carrier purchase for Germany?
    Second, I assume you take France G1 as usual, but do you also try to sink the Royal Navy? If so, how many planes do you usually lose? Does your UK player scramble fighters or leave the navy to get blasted?
    Going after the Royal Navy is kind of a standard move for Germany in just about all our games no matter which of us plays Germany. As for the UK, some of us will scramble fighters to try and protect some of the navy, others won’t scramble preferring to save their fighters (I’m one of those).
    When UK does scramble, Germany ends up losing a lot of aircraft but also manages to wipe out the RAF too. So you end up with England having no navy or air force to speak of yet Germany also having very little air force left to work with.
    However, if UK doesn’t scramble, most times Germany will only lose a couple of planes or so. However, this gives the UK opportunity to sink the German navy with 4-5 fighters plus it’s bomber. In a recent game, Germany (me) sank the Royal Navy and UK did NOT scramble. On G2, Germany sent it’s bombers to hit UK’s IC & Stukas to hit the UK’s bases along with fighter escorts. UK did not send up interceptors since Germany had so many planes to shoot at them with (2 bombers, 4 Stukas, 4 fighters ). The UK had 5 fighters plus 1 French fighter. I felt that if I hadn’t sent the fighters, then the UK would have sent up all those fighters as interceptors and could have torn up my bombers and Stukas.
    What I didn’t take into account was that the fighters and Stukas had to land in Holland and NOT West Germany (except for the two planes that landed on the carrier in SZ 112). So, my navy in 112 had no scramble cover.
    The UK came out with 5 fighters and 1 bomber against my carrier, 1 fighter, 1 Stuka, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer and 11 Transports. It cost them all 5 fighters, but they sank all my navy and Sealion was cancelled for good.
    A lot of people talk about strategic bombing England before Sealion, but what do you do about interceptors if the UK saves it’s fighters?


  • @Kreuzfeld:

    I am more or less 100% sure you are not even getting to bryansk, and you are never holding it. against a pure bomber strat like this, I am building artillery.

    You Dow russia on G2, killing 0 units,

    My russian beginning army is ; 27 I, 3Art, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 Tac.
    R1 build; 3 I and 7 A
    After R1 it is ; 30 I, 10 Art, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 tac. you will not kill anything when you declare, because I wont let you hit anything
    after R2 I will have 33 I, 17 A, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, I already have a bigger land army than you are planning on having after G5

    at the end of R4, I should have at least 40 I, 25 A, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 tac and 4 AAs in bryansk.  I can also have the british using their ftrs to prevent you from stratting moscow.

    what is worse is that your bombers will never help you on defence. If the german army of 44 units stands in belo and I can hit with 70+ units, it really does not matter what your units are.

    you are never taking bryansk then with your 44 landunits + 16 planes.

    Since you didn’t read my above post, I can get 81 units to Bryansk…yes My bombers defend at 1’s, along with my fighter and tacticals…You see, Italy takes first to provide the landing site, they can move 16 pieces in, along with 22 German air units…now do you see a possible merit to this…Will it work perfectly every game, probably not, but I bet I get your factories and get to produce out of them mid game.

    The bombers for the first half of the game shave turns off of the game, then mid game you produce more fodder for them.

    Follow my first forum game of this strategy. Remember my opponent knows my strategy and I am still comfortable.
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31303.0


  • @knp7765:

    @JamesAleman:

    First 4 rounds all bombers and 1 carrier….later a bomber or two plus a few mech as needed

    I am curious about this strategy. First, why the carrier purchase for Germany?
    After playtesting, we found not being able to retake Norway posed problems, also with my patented  :-D hit and retreat z111 with 2 bombers,bb,2subs I typically have a fleet of cv,bb,ca,1-2subs and 5 air units. That is why I want the carrier.
    A) to avoid landing in Holland with 1 tactical bomber since I send 4ftr, 4tac, 2 subs z110
    B) to preserve battleship and carrier and provide fodder for navy battles using my bombers as the main hitters.
    C) to convoy London with 1-3subs, 2 ftrs z109
    D) to provide a safe place to place or keep a transport to retake Finland/Norway if needed.

    Second, I assume you take France G1 as usual, but do you also try to sink the Royal Navy? If so, how many planes do you usually lose? Does your UK player scramble fighters or leave the navy to get blasted?

    See above, and no scramble is typical or they risk losing to a mid game sea lion

    Going after the Royal Navy is kind of a standard move for Germany in just about all our games no matter which of us plays Germany. As for the UK, some of us will scramble fighters to try and protect some of the navy, others won’t scramble preferring to save their fighters (I’m one of those).
    When UK does scramble, Germany ends up losing a lot of aircraft but also manages to wipe out the RAF too. So you end up with England having no navy or air force to speak of yet Germany also having very little air force left to work with.

    Unless they scramble I lose zero planes and 2-4 subs. Never lost a plane when they didn’t scramble.

    However, if UK doesn’t scramble, most times Germany will only lose a couple of planes or so. However, this gives the UK opportunity to sink the German navy with 4-5 fighters plus it’s bomber.

    They have 3 fighters, bomber, ca, dd, damaged bb, and maybe a ca from z111 against German damaged bb, 1-2 subs, ca, cv, 4ftr, tactical…calculate the odds on that one.

    In a recent game, Germany (me) sank the Royal Navy and UK did NOT scramble. On G2, Germany sent it’s bombers to hit UK’s IC & Stukas to hit the UK’s bases along with fighter escorts. UK did not send up interceptors since Germany had so many planes to shoot at them with (2 bombers, 4 Stukas, 4 fighters ). The UK had 5 fighters plus 1 French fighter. I felt that if I hadn’t sent the fighters, then the UK would have sent up all those fighters as interceptors and could have torn up my bombers and Stukas.
    What I didn’t take into account was that the fighters and Stukas had to land in Holland and NOT West Germany (except for the two planes that landed on the carrier in SZ 112). So, my navy in 112 had no scramble cover.
    The UK came out with 5 fighters and 1 bomber against my carrier, 1 fighter, 1 Stuka, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer and 11 Transports. It cost them all 5 fighters, but they sank all my navy and Sealion was cancelled for good.
    A lot of people talk about strategic bombing England before Sealion, but what do you do about interceptors if the UK saves it’s fighters?

    Bombers get to shoot at interceptors along with fighters, So if I bomb London, I sent 2 ftrs, 4 bombers thats 6 1’s vs 3-5 1’s….I will gladly trade air with London.

    My reply is in red, my game link for the first public test is:
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31303.0

    I will also play you as well if you are interested in drafting a counter for this strategy. Good Luck, I have tried a lot of things already.


  • Thank you for those people that are opened minded about this concept.

    First I am not saying it is unbeatable, just that I have not found a counter yet. That is why I went public, seeking help on this one.

    Unlike my typical posts, I am backing this up with real games, if you wish to try your idea against this, I will play you as well.

    Remember, as my opponent, you have every advantage knowing from turn 1 what to expect. If I prove successful, that should carry more weight because you are free to deviate from convention…please realize, I am not forced to keep building bombers, and I can switch with little fear of throwing the game. That way I can adjust to in game situations.

    Here is what I propose the bombers for the axis do. It greatly accelerates their advances, once gained, they can pause and produce fodder from forward positions. Europe provides the most landing sites for any bomber nation, thus the axis have an advantage going bombers over an allied bomber strategy.
    Remember aaguns have been destroyed in second edition, they shoot less and you select what does get hit.
    Germany builds 1 stack, that threatens 3-4 fronts…London, Egypt, Moscow, Atlantic…it gets better.

    Bombers can redeploy world regions quickly…Bombers from W. Germany can land in Kenya, then can open blocking dd’s to enable Japan to hit India quickly…the possibilities are endless.

    Conventional forces are stuck in their theater of operations, Bombers can be used and typically redeployed in 2 rounds or less. Instant shifting of threat. Massed bombers permit trading at major advantage, since the best defenders miss 30 percent of time and massed bombers provide a 1 combat round window not typical in most fronts.

    Italy can take landing fields for bombers to reach unexpected areas…worse, if Germany lands on italian soil, on italy’s next turn they build and air base, surprising the allies as only anzac and russia can respond…catching USA,UK,China unaware.


  • @Kreuzfeld:

    I am more or less 100% sure you are not even getting to bryansk, and you are never holding it. against a pure bomber strat like this, I am building artillery.

    You Dow russia on G2, killing 0 units,

    My russian beginning army is ; 27 I, 3Art, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 Tac.
    R1 build; 3 I and 7 A
    After R1 it is ; 30 I, 10 Art, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 tac. you will not kill anything when you declare, because I wont let you hit anything
    after R2 I will have 33 I, 17 A, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, I already have a bigger land army than you are planning on having after G5

    at the end of R4, I should have at least 40 I, 25 A, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 tac and 4 AAs in bryansk.  I can also have the british using their ftrs to prevent you from stratting moscow.

    what is worse is that your bombers will never help you on defence. If the german army of 44 units stands in belo and I can hit with 70+ units, it really does not matter what your units are.

    you are never taking bryansk then with your 44 landunits + 16 planes.

    Of course, you can be right.  If you play Russia conservatively to the hilt, at round 4 its a close call (russia’s favor heavily) for Germany to push up against Russia’s stack.  The thing is…while indeed Germany may not be able to take, they just don’t have too.  Let’s not forget, we are talking about a Turn5-6 win if Russia isn’t played perfectly.

    Time is in Germany’s favor.  There is no rush.  Continue to press out mec from the other 2 factories and while Russia collects in the single digits locked down with 3 bombers until enough fighters show up to force Germany to simply send escorts.  You have to put at least 9 fighters before Germany has to produce an extra fighter to escort…buy by then, they may simply elect to have bombers escort…themselves!


  • @JamesAleman:

    @Kreuzfeld:

    I am more or less 100% sure you are not even getting to bryansk, and you are never holding it. against a pure bomber strat like this, I am building artillery.

    You Dow russia on G2, killing 0 units,

    My russian beginning army is ; 27 I, 3Art, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 Tac.
    R1 build; 3 I and 7 A
    After R1 it is ; 30 I, 10 Art, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 tac. you will not kill anything when you declare, because I wont let you hit anything
    after R2 I will have 33 I, 17 A, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, I already have a bigger land army than you are planning on having after G5

    at the end of R4, I should have at least 40 I, 25 A, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 tac and 4 AAs in bryansk.  I can also have the british using their ftrs to prevent you from stratting moscow.

    what is worse is that your bombers will never help you on defence. If the german army of 44 units stands in belo and I can hit with 70+ units, it really does not matter what your units are.

    you are never taking bryansk then with your 44 landunits + 16 planes.

    Since you didn’t read my above post, I can get 81 units to Bryansk…yes My bombers defend at 1’s, along with my fighter and tacticals…You see, Italy takes first to provide the landing site, they can move 16 pieces in, along with 22 German air units…now do you see a possible merit to this…Will it work perfectly every game, probably not, but I bet I get your factories and get to produce out of them mid game.

    The bombers for the first half of the game shave turns off of the game, then mid game you produce more fodder for them.

    Follow my first forum game of this strategy. Remember my opponent knows my strategy and I am still comfortable.
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31303.0

    how are you taking bryansk, I got 75 units there, + 4 AAs, at the minimum about 80., your force is 16 italian units and 65 germans. the 65 germans will NOT be able to kill my 80 unit stack.


  • @Auswanderersland:

    @Kreuzfeld:

    I am more or less 100% sure you are not even getting to bryansk, and you are never holding it. against a pure bomber strat like this, I am building artillery.

    You Dow russia on G2, killing 0 units,

    My russian beginning army is ; 27 I, 3Art, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 Tac.
    R1 build; 3 I and 7 A
    After R1 it is ; 30 I, 10 Art, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 tac. you will not kill anything when you declare, because I wont let you hit anything
    after R2 I will have 33 I, 17 A, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, I already have a bigger land army than you are planning on having after G5

    at the end of R4, I should have at least 40 I, 25 A, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 tac and 4 AAs in bryansk.  I can also have the british using their ftrs to prevent you from stratting moscow.

    what is worse is that your bombers will never help you on defence. If the german army of 44 units stands in belo and I can hit with 70+ units, it really does not matter what your units are.

    you are never taking bryansk then with your 44 landunits + 16 planes.

    Of course, you can be right.  If you play Russia conservatively to the hilt, at round 4 its a close call (russia’s favor heavily) for Germany to push up against Russia’s stack.  The thing is…while indeed Germany may not be able to take, they just don’t have too.  Let’s not forget, we are talking about a Turn5-6 win if Russia isn’t played perfectly.

    Time is in Germany’s favor.  There is no rush.  Continue to press out mec from the other 2 factories and while Russia collects in the single digits locked down with 3 bombers until enough fighters show up to force Germany to simply send escorts.  You have to put at least 9 fighters before Germany has to produce an extra fighter to escort…buy by then, they may simply elect to have bombers escort…themselves!

    Time is actually NOT in germanys favour, however, my estimates is pretty much worst case scenario with good russian play, I could easily have 10-20 more units that I wrote here. If I prevent the german from moving next to my bryanskstack, then russia would not be producing single digits. in a german bomberplan russia would easily produce close to 30 IPC per turn until at least turn 7-8.


  • @Kreuzfeld:

    @JamesAleman:

    @Kreuzfeld:

    I am more or less 100% sure you are not even getting to bryansk, and you are never holding it. against a pure bomber strat like this, I am building artillery.

    You Dow russia on G2, killing 0 units,

    My russian beginning army is ; 27 I, 3Art, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 Tac.
    R1 build; 3 I and 7 A
    After R1 it is ; 30 I, 10 Art, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 tac. you will not kill anything when you declare, because I wont let you hit anything
    after R2 I will have 33 I, 17 A, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, I already have a bigger land army than you are planning on having after G5

    at the end of R4, I should have at least 40 I, 25 A, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 tac and 4 AAs in bryansk.  I can also have the british using their ftrs to prevent you from stratting moscow.

    what is worse is that your bombers will never help you on defence. If the german army of 44 units stands in belo and I can hit with 70+ units, it really does not matter what your units are.

    you are never taking bryansk then with your 44 landunits + 16 planes.

    Since you didn’t read my above post, I can get 81 units to Bryansk…yes My bombers defend at 1’s, along with my fighter and tacticals…You see, Italy takes first to provide the landing site, they can move 16 pieces in, along with 22 German air units…now do you see a possible merit to this…Will it work perfectly every game, probably not, but I bet I get your factories and get to produce out of them mid game.

    The bombers for the first half of the game shave turns off of the game, then mid game you produce more fodder for them.

    Follow my first forum game of this strategy. Remember my opponent knows my strategy and I am still comfortable.
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31303.0

    how are you taking bryansk, I got 75 units there, + 4 AAs, at the minimum about 80., your force is 16 italian units and 65 germans. the 65 germans will NOT be able to kill my 80 unit stack.

    The point is this: If you have 80 units, yes Germany will not attack you, they will produce out of your empty factories 6 units, bomb you for 20 damage, subtract 3-6 IPCs from the East that Japan has gobbled up, and fall back from Bryansk to Ukraine since about 10 slow moving units follow your lead force (Bulgaria, Yugoslavian survivors from turn 1). Even if you collected 37 and you only repaired 16 damage, you have 21 dollars to spend on 6 pieces….I place 6 mech and 2-3 bombers…thats 9 units maybe now you see this. Also, suppose and just suppose that Moscow is not the real target. What prevents the bomber mass from redeploying and dropping 1 transport to West Germany and taking London instead of Moscow now? Toss in Egypt or Volgograd (later turns) for the 8 cities.

    This multi threat approach is why we believe Germany has time to sit back and wait for opportunities once they get the bomber boost of speed that enables the factory captures.

    Now suppose you try to guard the factories like in my first public test game, what prevents me from Moving on and taking Moscow first, then the factories later?

    see our current public test game: http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31303.0  Currently in Round 2, USA’s turn. (Sorry Allweneedislove, I am not saying this stuff will happen or implying that all is lost for you  :roll: but I am postulating, and using our game as an illustration of just 1 allied strategy as it is the only game available in which I or my disciple  :-D (sorry Andy) have not played in our biased play tests.

    Russia has posted its second turn. Note they have more IPCs in the east, but have kept their 18 units there. (these were the units that liberate Russia in my play tests and convinced me to not capture moscow without the 3 turn pause to build 18-27 units.

    Turn 3, Germany will enter Western Ukraine (Ialian owned and garrisoned with 2 tanks to provide a landing field for German air), moving second slow mover force (6armor,4mech-Yugo, 8inf,2art-Romania) to EPL to prevent the Novgorod units from shifting south, turn 4 they will enter Bryansk, at this point, I am either attacking 25inf, 6art, 6mech, and 2 armor, 2 ftrs, tac, 2 aaguns in Bryansk (44 pieces) with 17 infantry, 3 artillery, 9 armor, 4 mech, 5 fighters, 4 tacticals and 11-12 bombers (53-54 pieces depending on if I lose a bomber strafing Baltic States turn 3), or I am moving the tank into Italian owned Bryansk, then sending that force into Ukraine which could have 3 more Russian units, hitting for 1 or 2 rounds and retreating to Bryansk, (since the tank moved from there). Just wait 2 more turns. In this game I will have the option of Moscow before factories. I have not decided as it’s only half way through round 2 for Pete’s sake.

    Now do you see the fluidity and options a mostly bomber build presents?
    (Again, with all do respect Allweneedislove, I in no way am critiquing your excellent play thus far. I am illustrating that the bombers make this game closer than conventional thinking would imply.)

    Please note, I have decided to stay focused and not have Italy stab at Baltic states, open for a 3 tank 8 bomber assault on the 6inf,2art,2ftr,tac,aagun there). I am better off using the bombers to defend W. Ukraine. I believe since he has 11-18 percent chance on winning in my earlier calculations and losing the bombers is not a good first showing of this strategy.

    Also note: in this game, my forewarned opponent is attempting to prevent me from using his factories as I have outlined in all my posts, we shall see how I flex the strategy mid game to counter. (likely a few mech built out of Berlin to secure the by passed factories. (See history books about Blitzkrieg tactics of bypassing, encircling and accepting surrender of defending forces).


  • @JamesAleman:

    @Kreuzfeld:

    @JamesAleman:

    @Kreuzfeld:

    I am more or less 100% sure you are not even getting to bryansk, and you are never holding it. against a pure bomber strat like this, I am building artillery.

    You Dow russia on G2, killing 0 units,

    My russian beginning army is ; 27 I, 3Art, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 Tac.
    R1 build; 3 I and 7 A
    After R1 it is ; 30 I, 10 Art, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 tac. you will not kill anything when you declare, because I wont let you hit anything
    after R2 I will have 33 I, 17 A, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, I already have a bigger land army than you are planning on having after G5

    at the end of R4, I should have at least 40 I, 25 A, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 tac and 4 AAs in bryansk.  I can also have the british using their ftrs to prevent you from stratting moscow.

    what is worse is that your bombers will never help you on defence. If the german army of 44 units stands in belo and I can hit with 70+ units, it really does not matter what your units are.

    you are never taking bryansk then with your 44 landunits + 16 planes.

    Since you didn’t read my above post, I can get 81 units to Bryansk…yes My bombers defend at 1’s, along with my fighter and tacticals…You see, Italy takes first to provide the landing site, they can move 16 pieces in, along with 22 German air units…now do you see a possible merit to this…Will it work perfectly every game, probably not, but I bet I get your factories and get to produce out of them mid game.

    The bombers for the first half of the game shave turns off of the game, then mid game you produce more fodder for them.

    Follow my first forum game of this strategy. Remember my opponent knows my strategy and I am still comfortable.
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31303.0

    how are you taking bryansk, I got 75 units there, + 4 AAs, at the minimum about 80., your force is 16 italian units and 65 germans. the 65 germans will NOT be able to kill my 80 unit stack.

    The point is this: If you have 80 units, yes Germany will not attack you, they will produce out of your empty factories 6 units, bomb you for 20 damage, subtract 3-6 IPCs from the East that Japan has gobbled up, and fall back from Bryansk to Ukraine since about 10 slow moving units follow your lead force (Bulgaria, Yugoslavian survivors from turn 1). Even if you collected 37 and you only repaired 16 damage, you have 21 dollars to spend on 6 pieces….I place 6 mech and 2-3 bombers…thats 9 units maybe now you see this. Also, suppose and just suppose that Moscow is not the real target. What prevents the bomber mass from redeploying and dropping 1 transport to West Germany and taking London instead of Moscow now? Toss in Egypt or Volgograd (later turns) for the 8 cities.

    I will ofcourse have my russian fighters in msocow, and possibly build 1 more there if I can afford it. I will also add as many british fighters as needed to prevent you from bombiing. If I have 6 fighters in moscow, you are not bombing me without fightercover.

    if you are bombing me for 20, I will ofcourse wait until I have 50 IPC in my hand before I build, making sure I completely use my 10 spaces. which means you can only on average kill 10 IPC for bombing / turn.
    @JamesAleman:

    This multi threat approach is why we believe Germany has time to sit back and wait for opportunities once they get the bomber boost of speed that enables the factory captures.

    ??? you playing with tech???
    @JamesAleman:

    Now suppose you try to guard the factories like in my first public test game, what prevents me from Moving on and taking Moscow first, then the factories later?

    noone is stupid enough to guard the factories in such a scenario. if you only play against people that are that stupid, then any strategy will work.
    @JamesAleman:

    see our current public test game: http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31303.0  Currently in Round 2, USA’s turn. (Sorry Allweneedislove, I am not saying this stuff will happen or implying that all is lost for you  :roll: but I am postulating, and using our game as an illustration of just 1 allied strategy as it is the only game available in which I or my disciple  :-D (sorry Andy) have not played in our biased play tests.

    Russia has posted its second turn. Note they have more IPCs in the east, but have kept their 18 units there. (these were the units that liberate Russia in my play tests and convinced me to not capture moscow without the 3 turn pause to build 18-27 units.

    Turn 3, Germany will enter Western Ukraine (Ialian owned and garrisoned with 2 tanks to provide a landing field for German air), moving second slow mover force (6armor,4mech-Yugo, 8inf,2art-Romania) to EPL to prevent the Novgorod units from shifting south, turn 4 they will enter Bryansk, at this point, I am either attacking 25inf, 6art, 6mech, and 2 armor, 2 ftrs, tac, 2 aaguns in Bryansk (44 pieces) with 17 infantry, 3 artillery, 9 armor, 4 mech, 5 fighters, 4 tacticals and 11-12 bombers (53-54 pieces depending on if I lose a bomber strafing Baltic States turn 3), or I am moving the tank into Italian owned Bryansk, then sending that force into Ukraine which could have 3 more Russian units, hitting for 1 or 2 rounds and retreating to Bryansk, (since the tank moved from there). Just wait 2 more turns. In this game I will have the option of Moscow before factories. I have not decided as it’s only half way through round 2 for Pete’s sake.

    to guard novogorod is a tricky operation, mainly because you have to leave novogorod early enough to be able to shift south. This is why I use my mechs and tanks to guard novo from an amphibious, so that I can get them to bryansk in one move.

    to have ANY units in baltic states is usually a mistake that qualifies you to the madhouse.

    Depending on how you set up the italians I can guard w ukraine with 0 or 4 units (assuming 2 tanks and 1 bomber can reach). That can mean a 4 unit sacrifice to stop you for one entire round, and also keep you out of range from bombing moscow for one extra round.

    assuming I don’t do this, your math for what you can have by the end of G3 is wrong, I said what I will get there after I evacuate novogorod, I should have 25 I, 10 Art, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 tac standing ready in bryansk, and by R3 I have 28 I, 17 A, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 tac +4 AA = 55 units, standing there. If you want to attack that with 53 units, then be my guest.

    If I am retreating before your army, you will be unable to actually occupy bryansk, because then I will get my full round 3 reinforcements  and the 5 infs from karelia and vyborg. my force for counterattacking in bryansk will be 28 I, 17 A, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 tac plus my R3 = 7 A 3 I (collect 32 + 5 for NO in R2), and the 5 final infs, which means I can attack bryansk with 36 I, 24 A, 2 mech, 2 tanks 2 ftrs and 1 tac = 67 units. your stack will be your w ukraine stack which will be 53 units + 2 italian tanks.

    If you are not able to threathen me away from bryansk, then russia will continue to produce good for a long time.

    Since you will If you cant go into bryansk then, I am reoccupying it, and have now started to invade with britain and usa, and probably have some british fighters on the way to moscow to defend against bombers. since none of your bombers can reach france, you should be in deep trouble there and can’t really afford to build that much more for my area.

    @JamesAleman:

    Now do you see the fluidity and options a mostly bomber build presents?
    (Again, with all do respect Allweneedislove, I in no way am critiquing your excellent play thus far. I am illustrating that the bombers make this game closer than conventional thinking would imply.)

    Please note, I have decided to stay focused and not have Italy stab at Baltic states, open for a 3 tank 8 bomber assault on the 6inf,2art,2ftr,tac,aagun there). I am better off using the bombers to defend W. Ukraine. I believe since he has 11-18 percent chance on winning in my earlier calculations and losing the bombers is not a good first showing of this strategy.

    Also note: in this game, my forewarned opponent is attempting to prevent me from using his factories as I have outlined in all my posts, we shall see how I flex the strategy mid game to counter. (likely a few mech built out of Berlin to secure the by passed factories. (See history books about Blitzkrieg tactics of bypassing, encircling and accepting surrender of defending forces).

    Now, I am a HUGE fan of building planes with germany, however it is not bombers I build, and I build 18 mechs in G2, and possibly 8 mechs in G1, this is because you will simply not have enough boots on the east front without these units.

    Also I prefer a more fighterheavy version of it, however bombers might be the way to go in some cases. My luftwaffe is usually counting 20 planes by turn 5.


  • Either I’ve been playing wrong, or you can only scramble up to 3 planes per airbase, even in defense of SBR. You guys are talking about scrambling up to 9 planes in some scenarios.
    Have I misread the rules ?


  • @Uncrustable:

    Either I’ve been playing wrong, or you can only scramble up to 3 planes per airbase, even in defense of SBR. You guys are talking about scrambling up to 9 planes in some scenarios.
    Have I misread the rules ?

    You can only scramble 3 air units per airbase to defend a seazone- but unlimited planes to defend a strategic bombing run.


  • @BJCard:

    @Uncrustable:

    Either I’ve been playing wrong, or you can only scramble up to 3 planes per airbase, even in defense of SBR. You guys are talking about scrambling up to 9 planes in some scenarios.
    Have I misread the rules ?

    You can only scramble 3 air units per airbase to defend a seazone- but unlimited planes to defend a strategic bombing run.

    Specifically, only fighters can intercept in bombing runs, fighters and tacticals can both scramble for seazones.


  • It looks like going north and taking Belarus before Bryansk is more optimal than Western Ukraine for 1 reason:

    Once Italy has any force in Belarus, Russia needs to:

    a) block 2 territories so Italy can not take, leaving units to be strafed by German air units and fodder.
    b) retreat enough units in Moscow to guard production and capital
    c) divide there force amongst both regions.

    This means that Russia will likely be kept in Moscow longer than it wants to be, giving me the time I need.

    I look forward to a game with you Kruezfeld when you are available, I’d like to respond to your defense against this plan before I give up on it. Currently, I am pleased with my results from test games and now from a live game. When an allied player is first exposed to this, they have to be really sharp to not get burnt.


  • @Kreuzfeld:

    …I will of course have my Russian fighters in Moscow, and possibly build 1 more there if I can afford it. I will also add as many British fighters as needed to prevent you from bombing. If I have 6 fighters in Moscow, you are not bombing me without fighter cover.

    I’m ok sending 6 bombers vs fighters, we each hit once, then 1 bomber out of 5 is shot down, then 4*5=20 damage. I just traded 24 ipcs for 30.

    if you are bombing me for 20, I will of course wait until I have 50 IPC in my hand before I build, making sure I completely use my 10 spaces. which means you can only on average kill 10 IPC for bombing / turn.

    So you place 10 units every 3 turns…3.33 units a turn…vs…6 mech, 2-3 bombers a turn for Berlin

    ??? you playing with tech???

    no, bomber boost refers to rapid conquest of Russia as they flee the “Dark sky”

    assuming I don’t do this, your math for what you can have by the end of G3 is wrong, I said what I will get there after I evacuate novogorod, I should have 25 I, 10 Art, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 tac standing ready in bryansk, and by R3 I have 28 I, 17 A, 2 mech, 2 tank, 2 ftr, 1 tac +4 AA = 55 units, standing there. If you want to attack that with 53 units, then be my guest.

    That math was for the test game, not in general.

    If you are not able to threaten me away from bryansk, then russia will continue to produce good for a long time.

    What protects your newly placed units from an air only strike?

    Since you will If you cant go into bryansk then, I am reoccupying it, and have now started to invade with britain and usa, and probably have some british fighters on the way to moscow to defend against bombers. since none of your bombers can reach france, you should be in deep trouble there and can’t really afford to build that much more for my area.

    If a navy is in the Atlantic, then bombers not bombing deploy to S.Italy which reaches every front. To support my navy of cv,bb,ca,1-3 subs (starting pieces plus ac built turn 1.

    Now, I am a HUGE fan of building planes with germany, however it is not bombers I build, and I build 18 mechs in G2, and possibly 8 mechs in G1, this is because you will simply not have enough boots on the east front without these units.

    Also I prefer a more fighter heavy version of it, however bombers might be the way to go in some cases. My luftwaffe is usually counting 20 planes by turn 5.

    I build my mechs turn 5….in Russia…12 fighters cost same as 10 bombers…fighters=6 hits, bombers = 6.4 hits plus move 2 more spaces.

  • Customizer

    We just finished a game of 1942 2e and tried your bomber strategy. Germany, Japan and USA all tried heavy bomber purchases throughout the game. Granted, I imagine it works a little different in Global 1940, but there were interesting results from this game.
    USA used their bombers to good effect against Axis navies. They were especially troublesome for Japan who kept having to replace transports.
    Japan made some bomber purchases, more than usual, but didn’t really get into heavy bomber purchases because they kept having to buy transports. One particular note was their land unit purchases: almost entirely infantry.
    Germany really put the bomber strategy to good use. They also bought almost exclusively infantry for land buys. I think a couple of artillery were purchased, but no tanks at all. They just used what they started with. It really worked well with cheap infantry as the fodder supported by bombers for the real punch. By the end of the game – Round 8 when Germany captured Washington – Germany had a fleet of 20 bombers.
    The best way to do it, especially in the large battles, is to try and have as many infantry as the enemy you are attacking. Odds are, their infantry won’t get that many hits so they never get to your bombers. Meanwhile, your bomber stack tears them up.
    Looking forward to trying this out in our next G40 game.


  • Thanks for the feedback and open mindedness to try this, especially in 1942. You will be pleased with the axis results in 1940 global. I am not saying this is unbeatable, but it sure speeds up your early advances and I still struggle to find a counter.


  • @knp7765:

    …s for the real punch. By the end of the game – Round 8 when Germany captured Washington – Germany had a fleet of 20 bombers.
    The best way to do it, especially in the large battles, is to try and have as many infantry as the enemy you are attacking. Odds are, their infantry won’t get that many hits so they never get to your bombers. Meanwhile, your bomber stack tears them up.
    Looking forward to trying this out in our next G40 game.

    You let the cat out of the bag for me here…with my strategy Washington and Ontario are viable victory city targets if allies go all in on Moscow, London, and Egypt. There are two locations on the map, that when properly coordinated with each of the 3 axis players permits a rapid late game conquest of America. I am being cryptic because I wanted to use it against a forum player before releasing it to the public but now I feel rushed: Erie is the most underused territory for going after America.

    Lets just say in one round after Italy captures one of two key locations (Erie or Scottland), I can get my German bombers to a Japanese landing strip (Alaska) in North America by first moving to this location (Erie) that is out of range, but made to be in range with a follow up Italian air base (z119,z123,z122,z121,Alberta,British Columbia,Alaska). This means the USA has 1 turn warning, when the German bombers land (if they predict the airbase) and no warning since only Anzac and France go between Italy and Germany if they don’t catch the significance of these two sites. (Hint: The weaker of the two choices is Scotland but it has an airbase which could warn USA since they see Japans conquest).

    Note: Japan’s throw away transport is not threatening to USA if they take Alaska for instance and USA follows before Italy makes its move, so their build is locked in.

    Now from Alaska (Japan builds an air base after Germany lands) you can strafe all USA territories using surplus bombers to apply damage to each factory if Japan’s main force follows up with a larger landing in British Columbia (from z6-Japan) this is easy and it secures the landing of EUSA bombers.  Alternative, a second Italian transport takes West Indies, after Germany lands in Alaska to provide range for the EUSA bombing/strafing.

    If you wipe all USA units off of the Land in North America with German and Japanese bombers, the Japanese tank landed in Alaska moves to Alberta, you strafe the land again, and it blitzes Ontario( a victory city ) to Washington (another victory city and probably number 8 or 9 in axis hands)….Two turns after landing in Alaska with Germany, I have plundered Washington with one throw away Japanese transport, an infantry (which takes WUSA two turns later if walking, the next turn if the transport lives.), an armor, and 2 air bases.

    Imagine a bomber strategy, that requires 2 airbases, 1 transport, and 1 armor to plunder Washington in 2 turns, sacrificing German and Japanese air units (that land on top of the German bombers to defend them from USA strafes) to clear the 30 units USA could build in its 3 factories. Once Japan’s tank takes Alberta, you land your slow German and Japanese air units to protect it from a US carrier strafe.

    The only counter is for America to have a strafe of Alaska ready when Japan lands the tank. This sub-strategy can happen at any time during the game…good job bombers.

    Are there easier ways to get German bombers to USA, yes…Iceland, West India, you name it, but Erie is the most “eerie” because it might go completely unnoticed unless your opponent reads my posts. Unless forwarned or extremely paranoid I challenge any veteran that sees Germany landing its bombers in Erie as a threat to Washington the following turn. All they will have seen was the Japanese Alaska take…Italy goes after their turn. So when Germany lands USA now has one turn to fly its air back to USA and build all land units or they are doomed…if the axis draw the USA navy to Australia, or South Pacific, only thier previous naval build will be in range to try to help…A single Japanese transport kept/produced in z6 keeps this threat real at all times. An Italian transport kept at Gibraltar (East side) (or an Italian troop loaded onto a German z112/z113 transport) should now open everyone’s eyes. You have been warned.

    Don’t like beating around the bush, are the allies going Europe first…Ok Japan stage a large invasion of Alaska, I’ll sacrifice my German capital and send my bombers to Alaska, together we will use brute force to curb stomp Washington the turn after USA enters the Mediterranean. I don’t need Erie as West German bombers can land in Japanese occupied Alberta/Panama/ in a pinch. You see, Operation: Hollywood is not dead, just reborn in the sky…Operation: Dark Skies  :evil:


  • Just throwing an idea out, but what if the Allies are heavily bombing Germany and Italy?  Would it slow the production of German bombers down?  Haven’t really looked at this too closely, just wondering.


  • @bongaroo:

    Just throwing an idea out, but what if the Allies are heavily bombing Germany and Italy?  Would it slow the production of German bombers down?  Haven’t really looked at this too closely, just wondering.

    From London, you can reach France, W. Germany, and Normandy, South France, Northern Italy (if they land in Malta).
    From Malta or North Africa you can hit Southern Europe and land.

    You cannot reach Berlin, so a good German will produce out of there and Russia.

    In a pinch, it is cheaper to erect minor factories than it is to repair major.

    Basically, I don’t think it will work for bombing, but strafing land or landed units does create a few possibilities.

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