Are bombers broken? : Axis bombers lead to allied dismay.



  • About a year ago, a friend and I started developing an American bomber strategy to use against the axis on the premise that America could afford to build large bomber stacks and trade at a disadvantage in cost to eliminate land unit stacks, thus elevating your allied standing armies in strength. Numerous face to face games and a few online games reinforce this alternative thinking.

    Example: 18 bombers hit 12 land units: 12 infantry hit 4 bombers or 12 artillery hit 4 bombers, 12 armor hit 6 bombers on average… thus:
    48 USA dollars remove either 36 to 48 dollars, or 60 USA dollars remove 60 axis dollars in the case of tanks. Averages do appear as we are talking many bombers and many rolls.

    Now remember, you remove all the turns maneuvering those land units. Against Japan, we cleared 10 infantry located in 5 or 6 areas and China (on the brink of oblivion) walked into empty territories since America destroyed any counterattack units. Then America redeployed from India to give USSR 15 extra casualties and prevented an assault on Moscow, then the next turn, they cleared off Novosibirsk while 1 Indian Mech liberated (forcing Germany to spend two turns to retake). Note, Germany also had to walk his 10 infantry backwards or stop so that 10 others could stack on him to keep reinforcements safe. Then they flew to London to be casualties and prevent a late sea lion. Then they sank the German navy on their way back to archangel. Since America can build 5 bombers a turn and have money left over any turn you don’t lose more than 5 bombers, your stack grows.

    You get the message, you don’t waste money on ships or land units, instead you maximize the destructive firepower and hit when you have 15 or more bombers on the board.
    It gets worse when this is modified for the axis.

    We have been play testing German and Japan bomber builds for the first 4-5 rounds: This is the obvious result: Due to so many modifications to bombers and so many additions to starting land units for the axis; Germany and Japan both have enough starting land units on the board to march directly through their opponents for the first 5 turns. Faced with such implied threat from such large bomber stacks, Allies retreat or face death in 2 combat rounds or less.

    Under this modification Germany and Japan are not trading bombers, they are trading starting land units and they won’t run out for about 5-7 turns, you beginning bombing capitals on turn 3 to reduce allied builds……then you place factories in captured territories and produce the cheap fodder to protect the bombers. Once Germany has 18 bombers combined with their 5 fighters and 5 tacticals, they can sea lion or take Egypt late in the game, the turn after they take Moscow. If you don’t lose the bombers, you land them in Norway from Moscow (Bryansk based launch to capture Moscow then land in Norway.) You simply keep your navy in tact by building 1 carrier turn 1 and 1 bomber, then all bombers until turn 5. Worse, their is no rush, you can use plundered Russian income to take your time on London or Egypt for city number 8 (and thus the game ending city condition is met)

    We have play tested a dozen games with just German bombers, and I took Moscow on turn 5-7 at great bomber loss, so now we stretch it out to turn 9 and we don’t lose any bombers. We now build bombers with Japan as well and it gets worse.

    On turn 2, you hit Yunnan with 4 bombers, Szechwan with all your slow moving air units based in Kwantung turn 1. I eliminate China’s fighter and all of his land units except the two northern ones at a cost of 4-5 expendable fighters(which are replaced by bomber builds), by turn 2…then China builds 5 guys, and I back those seven guys up to the border of Russia and eliminate 9 infantry on turn 4 using 2 artillery, mech, 6 infantry plus 7 or more bombers.

    Bombers are broken because:
    They are +2 to bomb damage, (we send 3 fighters, 4 bombers to shut down Moscow builds beginning on turn 3) (Indian builds beginning on turn 3 as well)
    They get to shoot at interceptors, (I will trade German, Japanese and Italian bombers for Moscow fighters any day)
    They can move 7 from airbases (I can stack in Southern Italy and hit Moscow, London, Egypt, and West coast of Gibraltar)
    They are cheaper than any other naval war units save destroyers and subs. (3 bombers costs the same as a carrier and 2 fighters)
    AAguns are limited to shooting 3 times against land unit strikes, meaning you are better off defending your builds with infantry then aaguns as you will hit more bombers that way since infantry fire each round if they get a second round.
    AAguns may be destroyed by air unit strafes (making them worthless except for casualties and blocking blitzes).

    I typically lost 4-5 Japanese fighters, by the time I have 14 Japanese bombers and the remaining 14 slow moving air units, I add this to my starting navy and America needs enough carriers to avoid 28 air units and 13 ships with 5 two hit soak offs.

    When Germany has 18 bombers , 5 tacticals and 5 fighters, Allies need a large navy to approach Europe as well, and you can ignore this navy and simply counterattack the weaker land force after it lands.

    Start up Triple A and try a few games, you will quickly see the dilemma: Either retreat and cede ground as Russia to both East and West DOWs or stay and lose units at great disadvantage and still lose your capital.

    We DOW Russia turn 2 with Germany, turn 1 with Japan. Keep America neutral 4 turns. Enjoy.



  • one funny side effect Japanese and German bombers (just a few) can trade theaters of opperation (Bombing Russia with Japan) and clearing allied destroyer blockers with German Bombers to enable the Japanese fleet to sink the allied fleet… lol



  • Refined Builds:

    Germany turn 1: carrier, bomber, turn 2: 5 bombers, turn 3: 4 bombers, turn 4: 4 bombers 2 mech (16 bombers if none lost)
    Japan turn 1: 2 bombers save 2, collect 46 (soviet far east, and Siberia), turn 2: 3 bombers save 10 turn 3: 3 bombers and the rest infantry, turn 4: 3 bombers and the rest infantry. Land air units in range of Japan turn 3 watch for USA movements. Kwantung air base allows you to park slow movers there and reach Japan for defense. (13 bombers if none lost)

    Later builds as needed, based on allies moves



  • Here is one playtest (I clearly messed up with the allies)

    The main thing this playtest shows is the opening German and Italian moves to pressure Russia…In this game, Japan was unsure where to guard and I lost Korea, but Japan is expendable as Germany is a turn or two from 8 cities.

    playtest.tsvg



  • Ya, the fact that the allies messed up big, and almost constantly the whole game, and that they received no bid, does not help justify your argument about the “OPness” of bombers.  Were u playing by yourself or against someone else in that triple A game?



  • if you are referring to AK_grown, he is not really a great example, although a turn7 Europe axis victory shows the strats potential IMHO.

    I hope to add our game to give it more credence, goofy rolls not influencing it too much.  Make you a believer  :evil:



  • Also, this has been playtested f2f for a very very long time.  We wanted to challenge the community to see what they can do to make it better, or provide a solid and reliable counter.  Perchance you will be the one to prove us wrong…or a strong convert.



  • That was just a test game to maximize the amount of units I could stack in Moscow primarily…I also wanted to see what Japan bomber builds would do. Since it was a test game, it was me playing both sides. I admit I do not know how to counter with the allies on this strategy. That is why I’ve been wracking my brain for a couple of weeks now. We first started with just Germany building the bombers, but add Japan and we believe it makes it worse. There was no bid, Unless it is very large 4-5 extra units will not likely change the outcome. Also that game was provided to show early German/Italian moves.

    Either way, you will be able to respond to this strategy, as your game is the first test platform for this strategy on the forums with Auswanderersland (I will be advising him when requested, he will be posting)
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31289.0 (Once Andy figures out how to play triple A on the forums).

    Once again, I encourage readers to try it out to see if they get different results. With triple A, you can try a game in one day. Taking Moscow turn 5 with starting land units and bombers because a player defends Novosibirsk is a bit OP in my opinion (that happened in a face to face game with a player that has “casual” level experience in my opinion). I’ve also tested this with aggressive allied builds (that test game was a conservative defense of Egypt, London, Moscow) game. I did stall the German’s with all tank builds for Moscow, but that ended the same as a veteran would expect. We are going to the community in hopes of finding a solution. I cannot play Sunday-Wednesday, but I will happily play a few games with people interested in trying this out by forum.


  • TripleA

    Who has not lost Russia at round 6? I mean it happens to everyone at some point!



  • What do you do when Russia builds mostly infantry?  It seems like you would need more land units as Germany to keep Moscow in play.

    I can see where that many bombers will prevent allied landings in Europe for a long time, but then you’ll have the UK go with a Mid-East strategy and the US go mostly Pacific (or bomber strat as well).



  • @BJCard:

    What do you do when Russia builds mostly infantry?  It seems like you would need more land units as Germany to keep Moscow in play.

    I can see where that many bombers will prevent allied landings in Europe for a long time, but then you’ll have the UK go with a Mid-East strategy and the US go mostly Pacific (or bomber strat as well).

    When Germany can place as many bombers on the board as Russia can infantry you will be ok, anyway, you penetrate deep into Russia then produce infantry out of their factories…

    Remember, Japan takes 5-6 IPCs from the East, Moscow loses 15 IPCs in the West. 37-21=16, 3 bombers, 1 gets shot down, the others do 11 damage. The first time, you have enough money to build 2-3 units, but once you have 20 damage, you are lucky to get a single unit out of your capital, all the while Germany is producing out of your old factories for a slow win turns 9-12…Good game.

    Also, go Pacific…Japan is now expendable, as 8 cities in Europe board also end the game. Worse, When Japan is finally able to fall, fly your Japanese bombers and air units out of Japan to move to Europe.

    If they go Europe first, when it gets bad, fly over to the pacific and serve as a big can opener for Japan.


  • TripleA

    jamesaleman the curator of operation hollywood comes back to aaa.org with a new daring strategy….operation dark sky

    i like your theory but i do not think bombers are breaking the game.

    send me a personal message if you would like to test your theory with me on these boards.

    i buy bombers for germany for the turn before an assualt on moscow and then a few late game when waiting for the stack that hit moscow to reach egypt.

    japan i buy few, if any, it is usually late in the game.

    italy i never have the cash to buy many.

    for the allies, ussr none, france haha, china i wish, anac a few if i am having building capacity issues and some late game, uk has too many other important things to buy, but i do get the odd bomber here or there usually for a specific threat and not part of a grand strategy.

    for the usa i have come to a similar conclusion that it is a waste of time and ipc to build ground units, and transports to get the ground units into play, and navies to protect those transports. bombers get into the action quickly.



  • Well, Germany can only buy 2 bombers turn 1, then the USSR buys 11 Inf, 1 Art. What turn does Germany attack Russia?  When does Germany start strategic bombing Russia?  I suppose that will affect the number of Russian Infantry available in Moscow, and how many bombers are shot down.

    At the earliest, Germany can hit Leningrad for 6 damage on turn 2- Russia doesn’t need that IC anyway, so no harm done.  Perhaps turn 3 you can hit strategic bomb Moscow.  By then Russia will have an additional 20+ Infantry built there, in addition to its starting Army- you can have a rather large stack in Moscow.

    Very easily Russia will have 60+ Infantry in Moscow by turn 5.  They may be able to get Finland, Iraq, Ethiopia to get the NO as well.

    By turn 5, per James’ buy plan with no lost bombers (statistically improbable) Germany will have 16 bombers and not a lot of troops on the front.  Will it be enough to take Moscow?  Hard to say- especially if Russia counter attacks the smaller German army when it can to whittle it down.

    What does the UK do?  If they do a Mid-East strategy then they can get help to Russia.  In doing so they can make Cairo very hard for the Axis to take.  Or, if all those German air are in the East it may be possible for the UK to build up an invasion fleet intended for Norway, France, or Africa (Based at Gibraltar).

    What does the USA do?  Are they also doing a bomber strategy or are they helping the UK off Gibraltar?  Are they going mostly Pacific?  If you make Japan expendable then you are limiting the ways the Axis can win.

    What if Russia buys an AA gun/turn?  That will be more Bombers shot down.

    If Japan goes for Siberia, than Russia has some extra units in Mongolia and a bit less Japanese pressure on India.

    In the end, I feel that its too many bombers- you need boots on the ground to take territory.  I will have to see your strategy played out, it certainly has merit and is worth looking into.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    This problem dates back to anniversary.

    Bombers provide so much of what’s called “threat projection” that en mass they are impossible to stop.

    It’s one thing to face your stack off against another stack, or your navy vs some enemy planes.

    But when you have to calculate that your stack could get smashed, and your navy could get smashed, and your capital could get smashed, you have to reel back across the board, or face certain death.

    It’s not what you actually do with the bombers that counts, so much as what you -could- do.



  • @Gargantua:

    This problem dates back to anniversary.

    Bombers provide so much of what’s called “threat projection” that en mass they are impossible to stop.

    It’s one thing to face your stack off against another stack, or your navy vs some enemy planes.

    But when you have to calculate that your stack could get smashed, and your navy could get smashed, and your capital could get smashed, you have to reel back across the board, or face certain death.

    It’s not what you actually do with the bombers that counts, so much as what you -could- do.

    Exactly!



  • @BJCard:

    Well, Germany can only buy 2 bombers turn 1, then the USSR buys 11 Inf, 1 Art. What turn does Germany attack Russia? Turn 2. When does Germany start strategic bombing Russia? Turn 3.  I suppose that will affect the number of Russian Infantry available in Moscow, and how many bombers are shot down.

    At the earliest, Germany can hit Leningrad for 6 damage on turn 2- Russia doesn’t need that IC anyway, so no harm done. Agreed, and not bombed as Germany grabs it turn 3 typically Perhaps turn 3 you can hit strategic bomb Moscow.  By then Russia will have an additional 20+ Infantry built there, in addition to its starting Army- you can have a rather large stack in Moscow. About 52 Russian pieces turn 5, BRY has 41 German land units all air units plus 14 Italian (6mech built turn 1 and 2, 4 inf,2art,2arm-starting pieces moves: Yugo-Romania-EPL-West Ukraine-BRY and lead the way for Germans to land 5 fighters/5tac/11bombers)

    Very easily Russia will have 60+ Infantry in Moscow by turn 5. Can happen with help from UK. They may be able to get Finland, Iraq, Ethiopia to get the NO as well. Bombers plus 7 inf in Finland/Norway clear Russians as needed.

    By turn 5, per James’ buy plan with no lost bombers (statistically improbable) Germany will have 16 bombers and not a lot of troops on the front. 17 Bombers by turn 4, 2 bombings at 4 each means 1 bomber will be lost for sure. Will it be enough to take Moscow? No, you don’t have to. You have just retreated into your capital building all troops, and Germany has Nov, S.Ukraine, and Volvograd factories to build 9 mech for 3 turns to enable a turn 9 capture without losing bombers. Hard to say- especially if Russia counter attacks the smaller German army when it can to whittle it down. I have had some success delaying Germans 1 turn with a 6 armor build turn 1…but it only delays and end result is the same.

    What does the UK do? Good question, I am perplexed. If they do a Mid-East strategy then they can get help to Russia.  In doing so they can make Cairo very hard for the Axis to take. Agreed, usually London is the softer target turn 7 or later as you have more air units then they do land units if they defend Egypt too hard. Or, if all those German air are in the East it may be possible for the UK to build up an invasion fleet intended for Norway, France, or Africa (Based at Gibraltar). Let them build a small navy, I can redeploy to S. Italy and hit all fronts. How big does that navy get when faced with potentially 5 fighters/5 tac/ and 15+ bombers?

    What does the USA do? Trying to figure it out, I have 1 idea. Are they also doing a bomber strategy or are they helping the UK off Gibraltar?  Are they going mostly Pacific?  If you make Japan expendable then you are limiting the ways the Axis can win. Japan is only “expendable” if America is going all in for Japan first….otherwise Japan wins before Germany does.

    What if Russia buys an AA gun/turn?  That will be more Bombers shot down. Infantry hit more bombers and are cheaper than aaguns, plus aaguns allow you to choose which air unit to take off…i.e. fighters first) AAguns don’t defend and are cleared by surviving air.

    If Japan goes for Siberia, than Russia has some extra units in Mongolia and a bit less Japanese pressure on India.  Japan: turn 1 Soviet far east and Siberia, turn 2 Sakha and Buryatia and Amur so Russia gets the men on turn 3 to play with. Japan begins bombing India turn 3, forcing a west india minor factory build….they are in the same boat as Russia when Japan builds all bombers.

    In the end, I feel that its too many bombers- you need boots on the ground to take territory. That was conventional thinking, you can also trade some bombers to get last city if needed. I will have to see your strategy played out, it certainly has merit and is worth looking into. Thank you, I am not saying this is unbeatable, but it does prevent conventional counters I am betting.

    Above replies are in red.



  • Well, I see how mass bombers can be useful but I have a few comments to respond-

    1.  The Allies can mass a Navy off Gibraltar, if they have an airbase in Gibraltar and own Morocco;  The Germans would have to attack with just bombers;  Fine by me, I’ll trade destroyers for bombers.   How would fighters/tac bombers reach?  Did Germany buy a carrier or attack Spain?

    2.  If those bombers are in Italy to counter the Gibraltar navy, than they are not strategic bombing Moscow that turn.

    3.  AA guns take hits and can target air units.  By no means would I buy a lot of them, but a few may help more than hurt.

    4.  Is 47 German units in Bryansk a conservative estimate?  Is Russia countering when possible, falling back when not?

    5.  If Italy is supplying that much to Russia - which I did not take into account with your initial post- than they have lost Africa and a UK Mid East Strategy is even more viable.  That is, minor ICs in Egypt and Iraq (or Persia).

    6.  I’d have to look at the map again, but I don’t think bombers in range of strategic bombing Moscow are in range of hitting any Western Navy (outside the baltic and western med), therefore the Allies would have a turn to get out of range.

    7.  The point of retreating to Moscow is to keep Russia in the game as long as possible.  If you lose the bulk of the Russian Army too early the UK/US does not have the time to get help there.

    8.  What is Japan doing?  Full on Russia?  When does the US get attacked?

    9.  Please don’t take my posts as any sort of personal attack, I really want to know more about what you are doing.  When you can play by forum against an experienced allied player it would be very helpful.



  • @Auswanderersland:

    if you are referring to AK_grown, he is not really a great example, although a turn7 Europe axis victory shows the strats potential IMHO.

    I hope to add our game to give it more credence, goofy rolls not influencing it too much.  Make you a believer  :evil:

    Yeah, not a very good example at all  😢

    Its definitely something interesting as a strategy and had me confused as hell.  My buddies were all “No problems then man, its bombers” and I’m like…that’s 18@4 dude…and he keeps buying them!  Buy AA’s then!  But…troops…land forces.  If he’s taking bombers as casualties and still keeping ground troops he just eats up territory.

    I’m going to talk it over with my Saturday group and see what we can come up with a counter.  I’ve taken our game and DL’d it so they can see the buys and moves.



  • I don’t know if they OP holds my views, but as he is my Axis best friend since 1986…you could say I know what machinations are going on.  A previous poster mentioned “Operation Hollywood.”  I think it was Dennis who mentioned going US first on the original board(THE original 1984 game! lol), but JJ modified to a twin assault from Japan and Germany - he can be a dirtbag that way.  He just modifies his strats however unlikely, to provoke a different game.  Operation Dark Sky is an excellent description.  I shall respond as best I can from my own experience playing against him f2f.

    @BJCard:

    Well, I see how mass bombers can be useful but I have a few comments to respond-

    1. �The Allies can mass a Navy off Gibraltar, yes, but by whom?  The US?  UK?  If the US decides to put a navy there, you are talking about Turn4 before you could move there with how much production on the East Coast?  Enough to survive 15 bombers?  That is a 10hit one shot that the navy would have to survive - and remember, a competent Japan player is unleashed without the US going full tilt Japan crush if they have an airbase in Gibraltar and own Morocco; �The Germans would have to attack with just bombers; �Fine by me, I’ll trade destroyers for bombers again, if you are one-shotted, the trade ends up being far more in Germany’s favor than you think.  Also, Italy goes first, so a neutral crush, Gib landing etc, can precede a landing spot.  Also, don’t forget bombing is not required of Moscow, it is just insult to injury. � How would fighters/tac bombers reach? �Did Germany buy a carrier or attack Spain? If anything, we have found that Germany literally gets to play with ideas on where/what they can do.  It is unreal how creative he and I have gotten and with impunity as if hardly any consequences.  Taking Spain and producing an airbase, nabbing WIndies with Italy and dropping 18 bombers that threaten East/Central/West Coast of USA.  It gets pretty crazy…because it happens within one round.  Literally, you can completely change theatres and lock down the USA. - but you don’t have too.  They can’t breach the one-shot defense.  Just bide your time for the 8 city victory

    2. �If those bombers are in Italy to counter the Gibraltar navy, than they are not strategic bombing Moscow that turn.Initially you need 3 bombers to lock down Moscow, then 2…then 1.  Even if you play Moscow conservatively, after turn 6 you are collecting low teens on your way to single digits.  If you hold onto the north, then you have put too many pieces out of position and Moscow falls sooner than you think.  We have tried being aggressive and conservative…we are not sure of a solution, regardless…it is still a delaying tactic not a proper counter to give Russia hope.

    3. �AA guns take hits and can target air units. �By no means would I buy a lot of them, but a few may help more than hurt.  I have found this is a waste.  It is simply not worth it.  Maybe I am wrong on this count.

    4. �Is 47 German units in Bryansk a conservative estimate? �Is Russia countering when possible, falling back when not? �We have been trying attack/retreat combinations etc.  Giving Russia best case scenarios for battles etc.  What we have found is disheartening.  It certainly can be scary for Germany if Russia builds tanks etc, and we have found it does delay Germany, but at the cost of troops for the final stand where we are actually able to attack Moscow sooner - and the worst part is the cost to Germany is nullified.  Tanks roll 3’s but act as 2 casualties, and you need casualties for your british and indian planes, not tanks…and when the hump is crossed for Germany with regards to the bombing stack being able to oneshot anything, then it simply doesn’t matter - and it is frustrating.

    5. �If Italy is supplying that much to Russia - which I did not take into account with your initial post- than they have lost Africa and a UK Mid East Strategy is even more viable. �That is, minor ICs in Egypt and Iraq (or Persia). The only problem with this is if you make your stand in Egypt…what exactly do you have in Britain?  I found myself facing a mid/late Sea Lion because I kept trying to ride the line…and oh yeah, the b��t��d bombers start bombing Britain as early as turn 4/5 if no targets are presented because Germany has so many damn planes they can.  Frankly, you can ignore Egypt and take Britain, it is probably easier, but you can march your stuff south if you want.  Up to you.  There is no rush as I have been unable to stop the sky from turning dark.  Italy only devotes I think 2 turns towards Russia, after that, they can play in the Med.  They can only help and if they are successful in there Afrika campaign, perhaps put pressure on Egypt for the 8 city win�

    6. �I’d have to look at the map again, but I don’t think bombers in range of strategic bombing Moscow are in range of hitting any Western Navy (outside the baltic and western med), therefore the Allies would have a turn to get out of range. �Only 3 bombers tops are dedicated toward Moscow…if that, the majority will be looking for targets on the sea/africa/and russian territories - bombers need to eat

    7. �The point of retreating to Moscow is to keep Russia in the game as long as possible. �If you lose the bulk of the Russian Army too early the UK/US does not have the time to get help there. �You are right on, we are playing with different scenarios, is it better to have planes/mech from India? etc.  This is where I am currently trying to refine my strat as I have nothing better to offer.  This is all I am capable of doing…is delaying the inevitable…till the inevitable.  I don’t see a win anywhere, and I am frustrated.

    8. �What is Japan doing? �Full on Russia? yep�When does the US get attacked?Turn 2 or 3 - depending on Japan’s position and where the allies post, frankly, it doesn’t have much bearing on Europe.

    9.� Please don’t take my posts as any sort of personal attack, I really want to know more about what you are doing.� When you can play by forum against an experienced allied player it would be very helpful.� agreed, your post is helpful and hopefully, will get people to try the strat and come up with counters.  It is actually a helluva lotta fun for the Axis…but God it sucks for the Allies.



  • @AK_Grown:

    @Auswanderersland:

    if you are referring to AK_grown, he is not really a great example, although a turn7 Europe axis victory shows the strats potential IMHO.

    I hope to add our game to give it more credence, goofy rolls not influencing it too much.  Make you a believer  :evil:

    Yeah, not a very good example at all   😢

    Its definitely something interesting as a strategy and had me confused as hell.  My buddies were all “No problems then man, its bombers” and I’m like…that’s 18@4 dude…and he keeps buying them!  Buy AA’s then!  But…troops…land forces.  If he’s taking bombers as casualties and still keeping ground troops he just eats up territory.

    I’m going to talk it over with my Saturday group and see what we can come up with a counter.  I’ve taken our game and DL’d it so they can see the buys and moves.

    Andy was very sloppy that game, he messed up Italy on turn 1. And to have fun, he wasted so much money on German Airbases. lol
    When he told me he had 27 bombers on the board, I kept thinking thats 18 hits for a 1 combat round punch on average. The most I ever built was 21 bombers in my games, I stopped the bombers mid way to build the army for a conventional mop up win. I like how he put an airbase on Normandy and he came up with the west indies take for Italy to give the Normandy bombers a landing site after strafing east usa waters. After italy takes, only anzac and France can intercede on West indies (not going to happen) then 27 bombers on Normandy hit either East USA waters, or Both sides of Panama (when Spain is non neutral). Thats another thing, a neutral crush is something to do when your bombers are board….4 mech and 12 bombers gives you Spain in one combat round.

    From West indies, if the USA is messing with Japan, you can bomb central and Eastern USA…let Japan take alaska with a throw away transport and you see the potential for fun. (All of this is if you get board with curb stomping Russia.



  • @BJCard:

    Well, I see how mass bombers can be useful but I have a few comments to respond-

    1.  The Allies can mass a Navy off Gibraltar, if they have an airbase in Gibraltar and own Morocco;  The Germans would have to attack with just bombers;  Fine by me, I’ll trade destroyers for bombers.   How would fighters/tac bombers reach?  Did Germany buy a carrier or attack Spain?
    Three destroyers cost 24 dollars and hit one 12 dollar bomber….Do the math, with 18 bombers I hit 12 pieces the first turn…With 21 bombers I hit 14 pieces, with 24 bombers I hit 16 pieces…If they were all destroyers I still win in dollars, but typically fighters and carriers die too, add up the money lost for both sides and the turns USA/UK spent amassing that navy.

    2.  If those bombers are in Italy to counter the Gibraltar navy, than they are not strategic bombing Moscow that turn.
    False, You can strategic bomb russia from S. Italy and land in Bryansk. After turn 5, you seldom need more than 3 bombers to add to the damage still left on them. Andy spelled it out as well, Russia is not collecting enough to repair all 20. They typically repair 15 and build 5 units, or save money a turn.

    3.  AA guns take hits and can target air units.  By no means would I buy a lot of them, but a few may help more than hurt.
    If aaguns fired each round like infantry do, I might buy them. Against land strafes I prefer 12 infantry over 12 aaguns. Before the 12 infantry die on round 1 they will take 4 bombers with them, the 12 aaguns will only take 2 bombers….(if averages are used to make this point…anyone could hit better if they got lucky, and its easier to get lucky with 2s than 1s.

    4.  Is 47 German units in Bryansk a conservative estimate?  Is Russia countering when possible, falling back when not?  
    44 units: 11 inf from Germany, 3 art,3aaguns from Germany, 3 infantry from Poland, 2 infantry from Denmark (transported turn1), 3 armor from Yugo, typically 3-4 infantry survive Yugo, 2 artillery from yugo turn 1, 6 armor,4 mech from France turn 1, 2inf Slovakia, and 1 inf from Romania as other activates bulgaria. So that is 43-44 land units depending on how many hits are suffered on Yugoslavia…turn 4 in Bryansk, turn 5 if delayed by russia. Add 10 starting slow moving air units, 2 starting bombers, and 4 bomber builds (ac, bmbr; 5 bomber, 4 bomber, 4 bomber)=16 bombers able to hit Moscow turn 5 only 12 can land as casualties on Bry since itally took it with 2inf,2art,2aaguns,arm-N.italy, 2inf,arm-Albania; 2 mech built turn 1, 4 mech built turn 2. All other builds for whatever you feel like. That equals: 43German land+10slow air+12bombers+16 italian land**=81 pieces** on Bryansk turn 4. I forgot the 2 Italian and 3 German aaguns in my earlier post.

    5.  If Italy is supplying that much to Russia - which I did not take into account with your initial post- than they have lost Africa and a UK Mid East Strategy is even more viable.  That is, minor ICs in Egypt and Iraq (or Persia).

    Itally provides 6 mech, 2 aaguns, 4inf, 2 art, 2 armor (all but mech are starting units in NItaly and Albania, Navy and rest of land forces contest Med for fun, Egypt is secondary target with turn 3 and later builds.

    6.  I’d have to look at the map again, but I don’t think bombers in range of strategic bombing Moscow are in range of hitting any Western Navy (outside the baltic and western med), therefore the Allies would have a turn to get out of range.

    True, I keep my bombers in Bryansk turn 4….after that you better set sail 😉

    7.  The point of retreating to Moscow is to keep Russia in the game as long as possible.  If you lose the bulk of the Russian Army too early the UK/US does not have the time to get help there.

    True, but my point is you keep moscow and surrender your factories without firing a shot in most cases. I will park on your border and shake hands with the Norther Japanese when they arrive, Japan or Germany can bomb you when you get uppity and try to build on your capital.   :roll:

    8.  What is Japan doing?  Full on Russia?  When does the US get attacked?

    Japan is doing 2 things: China and Northern Russia…They lock down around 30 Indian land troops if India builds infantry with a bombing campaign, if italy( I mean India) builds air units, they capture India with a bomber and slow air strike from Yunnan and the 3 transports from sea in the starting Japanese Navy.

    I once hit Indias stack in shan state (38 pieces) (they got tired of sitting in India which had 2 subs off its cost and 20 damage markers) with 14 bombers, 14 fight/tac, and 5 mech,4inf, 2art. lol I killed them in 2 rounds and lost zero bomber units.

    9.  Please don’t take my posts as any sort of personal attack, I really want to know more about what you are doing.  When you can play by forum against an experienced allied player it would be very helpful.

    Not at all, I like input, I also do not mean to sound like I am upset or defensive, I believe I am answering as detailed as I can from memory. I will post games on the forums once I get used to Forum Triple A play, I am an old Battlemap player and need to get versed in the Triple A posting technique.



  • Why are you counting AA guns in your unit totals? They can’t help you attack Moscow.



  • bring back the classic AA gun



  • @ChocolatePancake:

    Why are you counting AA guns in your unit totals? They can’t help you attack Moscow.

    They defend against a Russian counter attack, which is what I was answering to.



  • @Uncrustable:

    bring back the classic AA gun

    hehe, it would stop this strat fairly well…/agree


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