Simple Balancing (No special rules)


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Has anyone found any simple balances for the game?

    Like a -bid- everyone can agree is average.  Or a certain piece or two, or six in a certain location?

    Just curious, looking at the after action reports, and at the “who wins” thread, it’s clear the game has a 70% / 30% handicap in favour if the allies.

    Without getting into rail movement debates, or other such items, has anyone tried to balance this at home with just units? or a bid?


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    Garg, most people think changing the Navy would help.
    The French have 2 Battleships(too many), so remove one and replace with a Cruiser. I would remove a Frog Transport too, otherwise give the Germans a Cruiser off East Africa.



  • I agree with wittman- lessen the French Navy and possibly the Italian Navy.  Or beef up the German/Austrian/Ottoman navies.



  • Well, I played the first two turns of a game last Saturday that adjusted the navies to be closer to historical ratios and deployments.  We were using the 2-move land unit/extra move from naval base system.  Starting navies were adjusted as follows:

    Germany:

    SZ 5:  2 subs
    SZ 7:  2 subs
    SZ 10:  2 battleships, 3 cruisers, 1 transport
    SZ 23:  1 cruiser

    Britain:

    SZ 2:  1 cruiser, 1 transport
    SZ 9:  3 battleships, 4 cruisers, 1 transport
    SZ 14:  1 cruiser
    SZ 19:  2 cruisers (1 of these actually represents some old pre-Dreadnaught battleships), 1 transport
    SZ 29:  1 cruiser, 1 transport

    France:

    SZ 15:  1 cruiser
    SZ 16:  1 battleship, 1 cruiser, 2 transports

    Russia and Turkey each subtract one cruiser, and all other nations are the same as OOB.

    Turn 1 AH built a sub, fighter, plus infantry and artillery, and kept their fleet in port (I forgot to do the amphibious invasion on Tuscany to block the units in Rome from reinforcing Venice.)  They invaded Venice, Serbia, and Romania, but did not capture any of them outright.

    Russia built a fighter, plus infantry and artillery, killed the Turkish cruiser without taking a loss, and reinforced their borders somewhat.

    Germany built a sub, a fighter, and infantry and artillery.  They attacked the Canadian fleet in SZ 2 with the subs from SZ 7, the cruiser from SZ 23, and one other cruiser from SZ 10, and sunk it with no losses.  The 2 subs from SZ 5 moved to SZ 10, which is where the newly built sub was placed.  On land, they attacked Poland, capturing it.  They also attacked Belgium and Lorraine, contesting them.

    The French (played by my 20-year-old son) built a battleship and spent the turn ferrying troops from Africa to Portugal and Marseilles, leaving fleets to protect them. The British (also played by my son, who has apparently been reading Mahan) built 2 battleships, and attacked my cruiser/sub raiding force with 2 of the battleships from SZ 9, bringing the transport along.  The dice gods were not smiling on him, and he only sunk 1 sub and took 3 hits, sinking one battleship and damaging the other before he quit attacking.  The British also loaded an infantry and artillery from India onto a transport, dropping the infantry off in Arabia, with the artillery continuing on toward southern Africa.  The Turks crushed the force in Arabia, sent an infantry to activate Bulgaria, and reinforced their borders.

    The Italians, (played by a guy at the game store who had never played any A&A game before, but seemed to get the gist of it quickly), sent their whole fleet, including transport, to SZ 2 to kill my sub and cruisers.  They did, and only suffered a damaged battleship.

    Turn 2 the CP stayed in port, with the Germans building a battleship and the Austrians building another sub.  The allies continued ferrying troops from Portugal and Canada into France.  The Germans got their snouts bloodied a bit in Lorraine and Belgium, but were hanging on.  They captured Livonia.  AH took some losses in Venice, but also held on, and finished capturing Serbia and Romania.

    This is about where we had to quit, which was a pity, because it was just getting fun.



  • 1. India build restriction of 4
    2. Change the French Med BB into a CR.
    3. Move German Art from South West Africa to German East Africa (ought to be that way anyway!)



  • @xxstefanx:

    1. India build restriction of 4
    2. Change the French Med BB into a CR.
    3. Move German Art from South West Africa to German East Africa (ought to be that way anyway!)

    1. India should be restricted, but 4 is too low IMO
    2. Most have been changing sz15, swapping the French Atlantic BB for cruiser, and also removing the transport (France w/3 transports?). Larry has even said that would be his suggestion (and did it for the tournament rules amongst other set-up changes).
    3. Moving the German art from SW Africa to East Africa is more historically correct (from what I’ve heard). I’d have to look at the UK set-up though to see if it has a better chance of survival there instead of where it is now though.


  • Add 2 German Cruisers (East Africa, Istanbul) 1 battleship (Kiel). It forces the Allies to actually pick a spot to focus navally, rather than having its cake and eating it too in all areas.



  • @WILD:

    @xxstefanx:

    1. India build restriction of 4
    2. Change the French Med BB into a CR.
    3. Move German Art from South West Africa to German East Africa (ought to be that way anyway!)

    1. India should be restricted, but 4 is too low IMO
    2. Most have been changing sz15, swapping the French Atlantic BB for cruiser, and also removing the transport (France w/3 transports?). Larry has even said that would be his suggestion (and did it for the tournament rules amongst other set-up changes).
    3. Moving the German art from SW Africa to East Africa is more historically correct (from what I’ve heard). I’d have to look at the UK set-up though to see if it has a better chance of survival there instead of where it is now though.

    1. Explanation plz
    2. signed
    3. It has a better chance of doing something useful in R1 AND has a better chance of survival. And, of course it would be the historically correct location if that is of any concern.



  • @vonLettowVorbeck1914:

    Add 2 German Cruisers (East Africa, Istanbul) 1 battleship (Kiel). It forces the Allies to actually pick a spot to focus navally, rather than having its cake and eating it too in all areas.

    Von, there is no historical justification for adding German 2 cruisers off E. Africa or Istanbul. There IS justification for another Battleship off Kiel, provided you also give one to England. The Germans also had subs in the Med, so starting one in SZ 17 would be reasonable.

    Kim



  • Here are some considerations I will add to the list.

    I think it would reasonable to add one submarine to Austria’s starting navy, representing the German submarines that were sent to AH by rail. Even if historically they were German-operated it fits the flow of the game better to just add them to AH’s units and is not a big stretch. This makes Austria’s starting navy very unattractive to hit early and allows their submarine to sneak out of Italy’s coastline (braving the minefield of course) and sail under Allied boats if France or Britain try to send unescorted transports into SZ16 (a common occurrence currently).

    I would also like to see at least one Ottoman infantry unit added to Trans-Jordan and/or Syrian Desert. This makes the Russian Mesopotamia-slam combined with the UK Trans-Jordan/Arabia attack somewhat more survivable. As it is now there is almost no reason I can think of not to make those attacks, or at least not make the UK one.


  • Customizer

    @zanetheinsane:

    German submarines that were sent to AH by rail.

    This: Flashman like.

    Also, Flashman like SZ20, Sevastopol, Trans-Jordan, Mesopotamia & Arabia divided in 2 thusly:

    MidEastFeast.PNG



  • I dont think making a bunch of map changes falls under ‘simple balancing(no special rules)’



  • 1914 there were ZERO German submarines in the Med. They were sent there 1915 to not further provoke USA after the Lusitania sinking.

    AH had only 6 submarines at the start of the war.



  • @KimRYoung:

    @vonLettowVorbeck1914:

    Add 2 German Cruisers (East Africa, Istanbul) 1 battleship (Kiel). It forces the Allies to actually pick a spot to focus navally, rather than having its cake and eating it too in all areas.

    Von, there is no historical justification for adding German 2 cruisers off E. Africa or Istanbul. There IS justification for another Battleship off Kiel, provided you also give one to England. The Germans also had subs in the Med, so starting one in SZ 17 would be reasonable.

    Kim

    Not 2 each, 1 e Africa, 1 Istanbul



    1. Italy enters war R2 without collecting income or doing anything R1

    2. US enter war R6 (collecting 40 IPCs from that turn on to represent their superior economy)
         From Round One on 1 french and 1 british Art were shipped with an additional US transport to each France and GB to
         represent the munition the Entente received from “neutral” US and to have something Germany can attack with USW

    3. Give GE and the BE each one more Battleship and one additional Transport (German Battleship and Transport were
         added in SZ 11 to make it impossible to invade Scotland in R1)

    4. Besides the 6 additional Russian Infantry in Sevastopol and Livonia add 6 Inf and 1 Art to Ruhr and 3 Art to Hannover  
         to represent the strong right wing of the German army that crushed into Belgium (In every game I played untill now
         France was able to hold back the Germans on its own without any help of the BEF) maybe remove 3 Inf and 1 Art from
         Tirol and 3 Inf and 1 Art from Triest (AH is far too powerful imo)

    5. USW is possible in SZ (2),3,4,5,7,8,9,15,16,17,19 (mark theses SZs with a little red label) with every Sub rolls for 1-4
          to hit the BE/US income

    6. Add 1 British Inf to Nigeria and to Gold Coast so that the Germans can not move around in Africa as they unhistorical
         do



  • Good points except 5.!
    Germany declared a very specific area as “Kriegsgebiet” so that everybody knew where attacks could happen and where not.
    (pretty fair for a war, if you ask me!)
    Which means in a WWI game certain SZs!



  • You are right I�ve corrected it to SZ (2),3,4,5,7,8,9,15,16,17,19 with help of this image:



  • Note that it is the 1917 declaration and not the 1915 one!

    The first declaration did not include the Med.

    421px-German_Submarine_Zone_February_1915_SGW_Vol_V.png



  • Additionaly to point 5)

    **At the beginning of each Round Germany can declare USW.

    USW will take place in SZs 2,3,4,5,7,8,9,15.

    If Germany has moved at least one Sub into an USW-SZ, and that SZ doesn`t have an enemy Cruiser in it, it is allowed to roll the special USW 12-SIDED DICE (makes it more dramatic to bring that big one into play but you can also throw two 6-sided Dice nevertheless there will be no results of 1).
    The result will be split (if uneven US will lose less than GB) and is taken away from the IPCs of the British Empire and the US.

    If US loses income because of USW at least 2 times it will declare war on Germany.**

    I tried out several Rules for USW in the last weeks but this one really makes the Germany player declare USW at least very often, also Cruisers are more important in the game and the USW has finally the historical impact it deserves.

    (Sorry for the overshoot of the Thread Subject.  :roll:  )



  • We have pretty much found in our group that any USW rules are not worth the bother. All the German subs are lost during round one and nobody builds anymore during the crucial early turns. Simply put, given the choice of say adding 3 subs to the fleet or 6 infantry to send to the front, the infantry is way more valuable.

    Unless subs survivability are improved, they will usually be killed off quickly and for very little return.

    Kim


  • Customizer

    UNLESS (as suggested elsewhere) Battleships cannot fire at subs, in which case subs become a bigger threat to the big ships which forces the enemy to build more cruisers to protect them from your subs…

    But as it stands, the die rolls for USW would have to INCLUDE rolls over 3 to be worthwhile.



  • If a sub is being attacked it has the chance to submerge BEFORE combat.
    Roll one die. Only if you are unlucky and roll a “1” the enemy ships are allowed to attack.
    In all other cases the sub managed to submerge intime!

    See, before ASW (Anti-SUbmarine-Warfare) was introduced comprising of hydrphones and depth charges UK with all its over 200 cruisers and destroyers swarming the sea only managed to sink 3 German submarines (1914/15). Submarines were virtually unattackable for the first 2 years of the war. Later with ASW and even more important the convoy escort system the picture changed.


  • Customizer

    Perhaps this is the future of subs in Axis and Allies - much harder to destroy, but only ever get one shot per combat.

    Therefore, there’ll be a lot more of them around, but they won’t be able to win the war on their own.

    The danger is that eventually there’ll ONLY be submarines at sea, with nothing to do but take pot shots at each other.

    In this game the introduction of destroyers could represent anti-sub techs.



  • This way opens the door for economical warfare as it is supposed to be:
    Subs raided merchant ships in WWI and WWII!
    They ATTACKED them directly so this move ought to be in the sub’s owners turn!!!

    New submarine rules and destroyers are the way to go for 2nd edition or if not there in a hopefully coming BIG Anniversary edition like WWI game with TECH and DIPLOMACY.

    ASW would be a destroyer tech including hydrophones (for better detecting) and depth charges (allow one shot after submerging at 1)
    Btw cruiser don’t battle submarines.

    Well, if not, I have my own WWi game and there all this is properly implemented! 😄



  • I like how this thread was started in an attempt to find a way to balance the game without special rules

    and yet everyone is posting their own made up special rule that may or may not balance the game, and in some cases may or may not even be relevant

    bunch of ignoranuses lol


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