Gay Marriages

sorry, there is a more up to date source, a study by Oxford university who came to similar conclusions as to the website. The 20 years figure was if they didnt contract aids. And it is a fact that they live much shorter lives, what i was trying to say was that we should accept those who are homosexual but we should not encourage more people to become homosexual by portraying it as a lifestlye choice.
Furthermore objecting to gay marriage does not make me homoephebic, in the same way that my objection to abortion deosnt make my anti-feminist.

Well,

I guess the question is a more fundamental one:

Is homosexuality a bad thing?

Since, if it is, then gay marriages should be outlawed right along with homosexuality itself. If it is okay to be gay then gay marriage is fine, too.

Marriage is not just a religious thing, it’s an affirmation of the undying love between two individuals, and in many countries has some positive financial effects (think taxes etc.) and simplifies a lot of administration.

I_killed_mufasa:
I think you, and the writers of the article(s) you mentioned, seem to be confusing a hedonistic, promiscous lifestyle with homosexuality.
Granted, I can imagine young males without the influence of young women (who can get pregnant, for starters) might be a bit more wild on the sexual side, but to generalize this to the complete gay-community is a bit off. What about lesbians for instance? Could you post a link to that 2nd article? And stress on gay people induced by a less-than-tolerant society could account for some years of reduced life expectancy I guess ;)

have fun

-McGee

The thing that realy bothers me about this issue is that way too many minutes of my day are wasted on listening seeing and hearing about it.

McGee i completely disagree with you, homosexuality is not a good thing but that doesnt mean it should be completely outlawed, i am merely stating that things like marriage which encourage homosexuality should not be allowed.

Also homosexauls tend to have more parterns fact, but even those who dont are a serious risk as homosexual sex wrecks immune systems.

i_killed_mufasa:

Why don’t you tell us why then, homosexuality is a bad thing.

One reason you keep stressing is that it is inherently more ‘dangerous’.

What percentage of gay men contracting HIV would be reasonable enough for you to accept homosexuality as a lifestyle? 2 percent? 10 percent? I don’t think a number is too much to ask, if this is your main objection. And when you ponder this, consider that black men have a much higher rate of contracting HIV than do their white counterparts. Africans have a much higher rate than do Europeans. Perhaps we shouldn’t let black people marry. We don’t want to encourage them.

Which in itself is an odd position to hold; I always thought marriage was a commitment to another person. I.E. Those who are married are less likely to be promiscuous. It seems to me you should be applauding gay marriages. But then I think you have other reasons for opposing the homosexual lifestyle. Why don’t you fill us in.

~cheers

yes, why is homosexuality bad? you seem to think it is some sinful, or disgusting lifestyle choice, which is laughable. I know many gay people, and it was certainly not a choice. they were born this way, they tried to avoid it for most of their life, because they knew it would bring problems, but could not avoid it. many gay people (that i know at least) are more promiscuos with women (you read right) than men. why? before they came out of the closet, they tried to deny being gay, and so went with MANY girls to be as “heterosexual” as possible. homosexuality is not a choice.

allowing gays to marry is not promoting it, its simply recognizing that they have no cause to be denied something heterosexuals are allowed. im not here to argue semantics, you dont have to call it marriage. civil union is perfectly alright, so long as they have the same rights as a married heterosexual couple.

you keep saying that gays having a shorter lifestyle is a fact, yet offer no credible support for this outrageous claim. a site which is clearly biased, and definitively against homosexuality is not a credible source. not even a little bit.

(CC, freakily i mostly agree with you)

The source for that sites information is Oxford Univeristy!!!

There is still much debate as whether they were born like that, many it appears to be an emotional response to a situation. HOwever, increasinly more are ‘social’ homosexuals. Furthermore as ‘choice’ goes, they may feel desires but that deosnt mean they are forced to act upon them, humans still have a ‘choice’ as to the course of action they take. I was not talking about aids, everyone can get aids, i am talking about what anal sex does to the immune system.

As for other reasons i am a Christian if that is what you mean, and i oppose the use of the word marriage, but would grudingly accept civil unions.

Can none of you see the other side to this? Just becase they want it doesnt make it right? There may be consequences, we shouldnt just run into things regardless.

I think that here may be somethings that need to be determined/established.
For one homosexuality, by and large, is not a “choice”. Homosexual sex, on the other hand, is a choice.
Another is that few people would willingly become homosexual. It offers few benefits, aside from the carnal-opportunities.
Another is that homosexual men are far (FAR) more promiscuous than heterosexuals - by and large. This has been demonstrated in many sociological studies. This, of course, results in an increasing spread of AIDS, but we can deal with that somewhere else.
Another (should i be numerically labelling these?) is that biblically homosexuals are not to be discriminated against, however it is their lifestyle (i.e. homosexual sex) is a problem. Therefore from a Christian perspective, endorsing gay marriage is akin to endorsing a sinful lifestyle (i.e. homosexual sex - even if it is just with one partner rather than thousands). So i do not believe that being against gay marriage is “homophobic” or “bigoted”. Being against gays is. I’m not against smokers, but i am against smoking.
From a secularly, societal perspective, i can hardly see where there is a problem with civil unions of gays - hopefully that may stem the tide of AIDS in this communittee. The whole concept of homosexual sex is a bit absurd as it does nothing to promote the species, but as long as homosexuality pulls men out of the “pool” so to speak, leaving women who would want a “caring sensitive man” wanting, then i guess it works for me . . . .
Flame away.

i_killed_mufasa: Please give us a link to your Oxford source.

Please also provide links regarding what exactly it is anal sex does to your immune system. I didn’t spend a lot of time looking, but here are a couple of links for you to peruse.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/sex/qa/anal_sex_fetish.shtml

http://www.sexhealth.org/bettersex/anal.shtml

Neither of which seem to stress any such health risks.

Now before any of you health experts start posting, let us bear in mind the spirit of the O.P. I am not saying there are NO added risks to anal sex.
I’m sure there are some. But any such risk whos end result would be the disfranchisement of a large number of citizens should be very serious indeed.

CC: I agree with your first paragraph, but must take issue with your second. I think peoples views of homosexuality fall into two general categories:

1. It is something a person chooses, something they can change;
   it is something a person does.

2. It is an alternate, normal, unchangeable sexual orientation for a minority of humans. It is something that a person is.

My view, and what I read (partly) to be your view, was that of number 2.
It’s convenient to say ‘I accept homosexuals, but not the physical act of homosexuality’. Thats quite an equivocation, and doesn’t help anyone much in the real world. If the desire to have sex is accepted, why shouldn’t the act itself be?

I also disagree with your representation of homosexuality in the bible.

Lev 18:22
“You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.”

But that is the act, you say - God still loves the person, if the person loves God!

Corinthians 6:9-11
“Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

I think it’s clear God doesn’t distinguish between Homosexuals and their lifestyle, why should you?

To close:

Matt 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.
"Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
"And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

As to the pulling of men out of the pool, I’m with ya Bro!

~cheers

God is referring to their lifestlye in those verses. Clearly god will forgive them but he makes it clear he disapproves.

As for your artilces they only breifly cover the situation. I was talking to a Cambridge doctor the other day and he gave me a great quote about how playing in the sewage is likely to lead to problems.

My first article uses the Oxford university report as its basis, and the fact that it has a bais does not mean that its information is useless. The reason why anal sex can be so dangerous is that it compact and compressess material which was meant to be on its way out, this now sits and festers which leads to a drop in the level of effectiveness of the immune system. I am afriad that you will find, even if aids is discounted that homosexaul sex will lead to a drop in life expectancy.

@cystic:

…The whole concept of homosexual sex is a bit absurd as it does nothing to promote the species, …

Hmmm… i guess they do as much as grandparents, who are “allowed” to live on even though they are not able to produce any more children and “promote the species”. Any non-child-bearing member of the species (in a group/family organized species like humans are among others) is a great help to those who bear childs, helping in the “household” so to say. There is homosexuality everywhere in nature, and i somewhere read about a study on the influence of that. The result was that the groups/families/clans with homosexuals aiding were raising more children than the others.
So, it’s an indirect help, but nevertheless a help. You still promote “your genes” when you make sure all your nieces and nephews survive.

i_killed_mufasa:

And which lifestyle was he referring to when he damns those he considers effeminate? Please explain this to me.

And those he consideres covetous? To be covetous does not require you TAKE posession of your neighbors goods, it is enough to WANT them.
Clearly, God here makes no distinction between ‘motive’ and ‘act’.
Actually, he does. Stealing violates the 8th commandment.

It seems he considers not only the act, but intent as well. Imagine that.

Here’s the kicker. Now read this carefully. Ready?

Adultery. The 7th Commandment. Do not diddle someone other than your spouse. That’s pretty clear, right? No mention of WANTING your neighbors wife - thats NOT a lifestyle, thats just a feeling you have, an urge, and is not bad. You have to actually do her for it to be a sin. Is this sounding familiar?

Well actually there IS a Commandment about just wanting other people, and things - that would be the 10th commandment. The one about being covetous. But I digress. Back to adultery.

Not only has God forbidden adultery, but the son of God himself said, “Whoso looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart”. Matthew 5:28, if you wish to read for yourself.

Peter described some sinners of his day as having “eyes full of adultery, that cannot cease from sin” II Peter 2:14. Check it out.

What does this all mean? It means God considers it a sin to ‘want’ someone, without actually participating in a physical act. It means he considers the desire as sinful as the act. In this case, if you look at a woman, and desire her - you have sinned. Of course, if you still wish to stick to your argument, I suppose you could present the case that God holds a special place in his heart for gay men. They need not worry about desiring other men, so long as they don’t do it. Right?

Riiiight.

It is not clear to me at all that God will forgive them. Did you not comphrehend my quote from Matthew? In a nutshell, it is not enough to love God, and praise him. That will NOT get you into heaven. You must follow his LAWS to honor him.

I don’t consider your original article to be biased. I consider the website it was on to be biased. This becomes apparent when you read (you did read it, didn’t you?) the link I provided. The study and it’s findings have been INVALIDATED by those who originally WROTE IT. Not in the sense that the numbers were incorrect, but in that the conclusion they drew no longer applies, as the numbers have CHANGED. If this were 1990, you would have a point. It is not, and you don’t.

With that out of the way, please post a link to the information you claim lowers life expectancy. I’m interested in reading it.

~cheers

K-Ration
well, it’s quite simple - as long as i unapologetically practice “x” sinful practice, then God is not happy with me. It does not matter if that is having sex outside of marriage, or stealing, or having homosexual sex. Hourly i want to have sex with other women. I have the choice of giving in to these desires or not (well - on occassion, anyway). If i make the choice to follow my heterosexual desires, then i am sinning if i’m not in the appropriate relationship with a woman yet have sex with her.
@F_alk:

@cystic:

…The whole concept of homosexual sex is a bit absurd as it does nothing to promote the species, …

Hmmm… i guess they do as much as grandparents, who are “allowed” to live on even though they are not able to produce any more children and “promote the species”. Any non-child-bearing member of the species (in a group/family organized species like humans are among others) is a great help to those who bear childs, helping in the “household” so to say. There is homosexuality everywhere in nature, and i somewhere read about a study on the influence of that. The result was that the groups/families/clans with homosexuals aiding were raising more children than the others.
So, it’s an indirect help, but nevertheless a help. You still promote “your genes” when you make sure all your nieces and nephews survive.

true. Still, two men having sex do little to aid with this. A gay man who protects his nephew from harm and teaches him a life of giving and learning and protecting others, however, will not help his young nephew survive, but rather helps him be a better person. (in my experience, this does not help one find “a woman” - i hate being the nice guy! - and does not necessarily help propagate the species - particularly relative to "hanging out in bars and having unsafe sex with women you’ve just met with IQ’s the size of their new “F**k-me pumps who are too stupid to insist on condoms blah blah blah”)
but i’m just ranting here.

@i_killed_mufasa:

…how playing in the sewage is likely to lead to problems.

Sure anal sex might be bad, mkay. Agreed. Logical even.

But heterosexuals do that as well. Gay women don’t. So the point is ‘don’t have anal sex’ then? Discourage anal sex instead of being gay, I guess ;)

I’d still love to see the link, if you can find it again.

peace

-McGee

the bible question is difficult. God will forgive sinners that much is true. However, we must do our best not to sin, while lust is sin it is worse to act upon those feelings. Everyone lusts and in that way everyonen sins, however, it is going a stage further to act upon it and that is why it is covered in to different Commandments (adultery and lustful thoughts are two seperate sins).

i killed mufasa, im not going to get into a detailed discussion about sex with you, but anyone who is having anal sex with someone who currently has something up there that wants to come out is where the problem is. people who regularly practice anal sex would empty and clean (enema) their bowels before engaging in it. for hygienes sake as well as common sense. but anyway, enough of that…
it still may be a bad thing, im not trying to promote it, but like McGee said, its not homosexuality that is the problem then, its anal sex. and i would question the validity of a source that says it takes 20 years off your life, even if it does have negative effects, that sounds extreme

The whole concept of homosexual sex is a bit absurd as it does nothing to promote the species

CC, the sex is part of pleasure and love that the two men share. alot (if not most) of heterosexual sex is not done to promote the species, but for the same reason. why should gays not be allowed to practice sex for pleasure or love? also, while gays may not be able to biologically contribute to the species (excluding sperm donations/egg donations), they can promote the species. I have two gay friends who have a son, adopted of course. while he is not biologically their son, they raise him as their own, and so it goes beyond the “gay man teaching his nephew” into gay men being parents, something which absolutely promotes the species, kids need parents to live

also, Im unsure whether this is true or not, but i heard several months ago that two gay men, through some kind of manipulation of one of their sperm, had been able to biologically concieve a child. did anyone else hear about this? and whether or not it was true?

@i_killed_mufasa:

God will forgive sinners that much is true. However, we must do our best not to sin, …

(a) Why must we?
and once that is answered i assume the following question from would be:
(b) What about confessions?

Well, I can see we aren’t going get get very far with this one. =p

This: ‘Hourly i want to have sex with other women.’

Is a sin, according to mainstream Christian belief. Acting on it is also a sin. If you desire a woman/man, are not married to them, and have sex with them, you have committed at the very least 2 sins. Probably more.

I didn’t make it up, I dont agree with it, I don’t believe it. But the message cannot be more clear.

The only way I can see one being a non-sinning homosexual, is if the man somehow knew he was gay, without ever having looked at another man and feeling desire for him. Is that even possible?

Either way, I understand the point you are trying to make. I can understand you not liking the ‘act’, and still being able to feel sympathy (or whatever) for the guy, especially if you view it as genetically driven.

The problem is, this is not the church of CC. I wish it were.

Your view and the Christian God’s are not the same on this issue.

Which bring us back to the crux of the discussion. I wont reiterate it, as it doesn’t seem anyone wants to answer my original question.

I_killed_mufasa:

What evidence do you have that shows lust is a lesser sin than adultery?

Janus1:

I didn’t hear that, it doesn’t sound right, and for the love of GOD I hope it isn’t true. You’d have to be able to turn sperm into an egg - if we can do that, Holy crap.

~cheers

well it isnt possible to have a sinless homosexual, mainly because it isnt possible to have a sinless human being.
As for lust, it is clearly a sin and one needs to ask god for forgivness for it, however, to go out and act uppon that lust is just saying to god you really dont care what he thinks.