2nd of Battle of El Alamein



  • I know it may be a reach to think Tiger tanks could have been in this battle because of the huge supply lines, but lets see where this poll goes.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    Afternoon Worsham. Not Tigers. Hitler would never have allowed their use so far away. The first were used at Lenningrad(a waste because of the awful weather and terrain), I think.
    The Germans had 88s on a good platform and had used them very effectively against British tanks so far in the desert.
    I think Montgomery’s (annoying) habit of building up strength before an offensive was always going to pay off. Supply was the Axis problem. No Division or two Divisions were going to change the outcome, I believe.
    Pulling back to more defensible Tunisia was the only option open to them(not something Hitler, thinking of his Ally’s North African possession)would sanction.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    Having said that, mines did slow the Allies enough to allow most of the Axis forces to retreat and avoid certain capture.
    Maybe mines then! (No idea how many would have been needed.)


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    It depends if all other things are equal or not.  One of the biggest problems faced by the Germans (and also by the British) in North Africa was logistics.  Armoured forces need a lot of fuel, and men fighting in the desert need a lot of water; this requires substantial supply columns, and the problem only gets worse the further you push into enemy territory (which helps to explain why the Axis and the Allies drove each other back and forth across North Africa several times).  At El Alamein, Rommell was at the end of a long supply line.  Giving him more tanks and more men without boosting his supplies accordingly would have meant the more rapid consumption of his fuel and water, perhaps even to the point where his position would have been weakened rather than improved.  So in a scenario with no logistical improvement, I’d pick the “more mines” option because mines (unlike tanks and men) consume no supplies.  I don’t know enough about El Alamein to judge whether 200,000 additional anti personal mines would have stopped Montgomery, but they would no doubt have slowed him down; as I recall, mine-clearing operations were a major (and time-consuming) component of Montgomery’s battle plans.



  • From my readings on this battle the axis minefields were heavy in anti-tank mines and low on anti-personal mines for the ‘devil gardens’.



  • I led this poll with Italian infantry since the Italians fought very well in this battle, destroying hundreds of British tanks with obsolete 37mm guns and whatever means were available.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    @ABWorsham:

    From my readings on this battle the axis minefields were heavy in anti-tank mines and low on anti-personal mines for the ‘devil gardens’.

    I’d imagine that an effective minefield would require a mixture of both types of mines.  In principle, a minefield composed entirely of anti-tank mines could be safely crossed by infantry (whose low weight wouldn’t be enough to set them off), while a minefield composed entirely of anti-personnel mines could be safely crossed by tanks (which would not be damaged by the small blast and primarily fragmentation effect of anti-personnel mines).  A mixed minefield poses a threat to both troops and tanks, and thus requires tedious manual clearing by troops using – if one is limited to 1941-vintage technology – mine detectors and/or the old technique of prodding the ground with bayonets, as we see in the classic movie Desert Victory.  This was before the development of flail tanks (used on D-Day), or better yet the Mine Clearing Line Charge (which I was surprised to learn is a concept which dates all the way back to 1944).



  • I remember reading that Rommel had several hundred rigged 500 & 1000lb bombs traps in his ‘devil garden’, however most if these did not survive the heavy British bombardment.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Wow… a 5 way tie!


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    @ABWorsham:

    I remember reading that Rommel had several hundred rigged 500 & 1000lb bombs traps in his ‘devil garden’, however most if these did not survive the heavy British bombardment.

    I understood it was a massive artillery barrage, which took its toll on the defending Axis troops, their guns and their vehicles.



  • Supply is the one main thing, to do that Malta would have needed to get sunk, or better control of the Med
    Great question keep them comming


  • 2017 '16 '13 '12

    Mastery of the air!


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Mastery of the Sea! (AKA Supply!)



  • I found from so reading that the Italian’s best, and only, real answer to British armor was a scraped together weapon system. They took a 102mm rapid fire naval gun and mounted the gun on a heavy Fiat truck, this made an great heavy anti-tank gun. Although it was soft skin vehicle it packed a punch.



  • Don´t think any of these options could beat the 8th army, although the tigers and/or marders could make a difference.

    Monty had very high casulties, only won because he had a superior number of tanks.


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16

    The way I see it:
    -two additional German trained Italian Infantry Divisions would be of no use because fully equuipped and trained they have been comming to late to make an excessive change.

    • the addition of another Panzer Division would be one of the best solutions but only FULLY equipped and along with two Pantergrenadier Reg.

    • the addition of a Panzer- Grenadier-Division to the theater would be of no good use without a few Panzer Regiments.

    • the addition of a company of new Tiger tanks and an anti tank Marder company would be a good add- on but require Panzer Grenadier Regs as well.

    -200,000 additional anti personal mines would be good if you consider to keep what you got and def thinking about a Defensive Strategy.

    -none of these options are enough to beat back the 8th Army <- The 8th Army was good but not to strong to beat the Germans. I think if the DAK would have had more then the rare Supply shipped over the Med. Sea, then the Brit. 8th would have had a hard time to beat back the Germans.

    Under the line: Tanks and Grennys are the optimal choice of mine and I can see Rommel doing a good job with it!


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