Larry Harris: Strategic Movements Mechanic



  • Yesterday i finished a game which lasted ten hours in total. We used the SM rule and the plus one from ports movement.
    The allies did win, but were in much trouble throughout the game. I was the allies and am a way more experienced played then my opponent, but still it hang in the balance for the first eight rounds. Then Rome fell, but the Germans before that thought they had Russia on their knees and started sending their new troops to Paris. But it was one turn too soon and Russia with an income of only eight did fight back and got back into the game.
    Austria did help by sending a large army back from Italy to Russia, but that army was needed to invade Southern France. Because that didnt happen the French could win back Belgium and invade Germany.

    Even though the allies won again, this was the first time they were in trouble. And the first time they captured a capital. Tomorrow we re playing another game and then im the CP.

    So far i love these new rules.


  • Customizer

    So did your game revolve around super-stacks?



  • No, not really. Strategies were used where the opponent had to chose between multiple targets. And if not doing that then would lose out on loads of ipc.
    One solution, if it does get out of hand, is to do the sm move BEFORE placing new units. But so far in our games there hasnt been a need to.



  • One thing that really worries me and might bring it about to superstacks the more it is played is the fact that you only get one move. There is little reason to spread out your armies when they need to be in one spot (well, for some powers, they need 2 spots) to take advantage of this rule.



  • That sounds right, Von. It is true that the Turks moved all of their troops to Meso at a stand off with theBrits.

    Maybe an alteration that it is not one move you can do but up to a max of, say, ten and to and from all kinds of tts, as long as you own them.



  • What also could help is that you arent allowed to move to or from contested areas.


  • Customizer

    I’m reminded of something I suggested a while ago - before the actual war starts each power starting at war has a “mobilization” turn. This is a single simultaneous turn for all such powers in which they can move units anywhere within their own tt. The moves are written down in secret, then enacted.

    This would get those starting units to the front lines in time to give the CPs a chance, while allowing future SRM to get newly built stacks out there every turn. In this case, perhaps ONLY units starting in the capital can use SM.



  • I am in Maui right now with an iPad I don’t understand how to use at a Starbucks with free wifi.  This is last day of ten day vacation.  I brought copy of 1914 to look at in spare time.  I wrote up 2 essays on navy and rails issues and can’t figure out how to post them as I wrote them up as emails. I will figure this out when I get back to mainland I guess.

    Anyway, concerning rails i think new units arriving anywhere in home country as a mobilization center duplicates history as rail use and should be incorporated.

    I also think that moving a group of six units from one non contested location to another in Europe only in the movement phase as movement for those units involved constitutes the actual scale of use for all historical use contestants. Except the Germans who actually used it more and better.  The Austro Hungarians and Russians made hilarious mistakes in their rail use.  I think this would also be a way to show a German strength compared to the other powers by adding an attrition die roll to this type of strategic move varying as to quality of nationality moving.



  • @KimRYoung:

    I posted this on Larry’s site Monday with little response:

    Strategic Movement

    "During the move phase any land and naval units may move up to double their normal move rate provided they move entirely through Friendly territories or sea zones "

    Comments: Kills 2 birds with one stone. This is a simple and clean compromise. The extra movement is for strategic redeployment only, you cannot move into a combat situation. Subs may move through hostile sea zones at double per their normal special ability. Cruisers are now a little more valuable, being able to go 6 sea zones and get in position to threaten shipping lanes or provide quicker support.

    Land units can get to the front a little quicker, and can go from one front to another much quicker, but it�s not a game breaker from the current rules. They cannot move into a combat situation with this move, but will be able to reinforce areas much quicker. These rules do not apply to Fighters (Naval and Land units only).

    This is not as radical a change as what Larry proposed, but it does give those that complained about the slowness of getting units around without being abusive. The rule covers both land and sea in a single simple descriptive sentence with little complexity.

    Lets hear what you think.

    Kim

    After Your excellent suggestion for the Russian Revolution Rules, this is another great one I will use for future plays !! (Exception for me is Africa, where Land Units still can just move to the adjacent territory).
    We tested your new movement rules the last two sessions and it was just what this game needed. After all it still feels like WW1 and is much simpler than beaming around in a second movement phase after combat. I think this should become the official Movement Rules change…



  • Chacmool,

    In my latest posting I made a slight change to allow land units to end their move in a contested (but NOT hostile) territory. This would allow units to get into an already established ongoing battle which I thought appropriate. I don’t think it’s a big change, but if you see a flaw let me know,

    Larry has already stated his SM rule WILL NOT be official in any way, more like HIS house rule. That’s OK, but I really would like to see something that can in fact be a real rule change to the came rather then a house rule. Larry’s rule I think is a bit to much.

    As for the naval movement, my ideas or Taveniers idea of +1 move when starting from a naval base I think are both better then Larry’s 5 SZ move. The +1 move from a base may be the best hope for an actual rule change as it is consistent with Global 1940, so I’m good with that.

    All the “Rail Move” ideas are fine, but just going with the 2 territory move is less conditional I think.

    We’ve been playing OOB rules for now just to see if there is any way the CP can make a go of it based upon strategy, and so far have not seen it. Will probably start using my idea next game. Will let you know.

    Kim



  • Larrys SM move is a good one, just needs some minor tweaking (you should be allowed to move into/through any tts you have units currently in in addition to any tt you have full control of)
    The 5 SZ movement for all ships though it too much, and ruins cruisers.

    Doubling all ships movement to 4 (6 for cruisers) i think is far better than all at 5 (and i believe your idea Kim  😉)



  • @Uncrustable:

    Larrys SM move is a good one, just needs some minor tweaking (you should be allowed to move into/through any tts you have units currently in in addition to any tt you have full control of)

    This is probably the most harmonious with the recent rule change, and the one that came to my mind first as well.

    It also seems to solve the problem that currently exists, where moving OUT of a contested territory makes it harder for your opponent to move through.



  • Kim,

    how about this:

    All land units (Infantry, Artillery, Tanks) can move up to two spaces. When moving two spaces the first space must be a friendly territory or a contested territory that already contains units of your power. A Land unit must end its move in a friendly zone or in a territory containing units belonging to your power. However, land units in Africa can just move to an adjacent territory.



  • @Chacmool:

    Kim,

    how about this:

    All land units (Infantry, Artillery, Tanks) can move up to two spaces. When moving two spaces the first space must be a friendly territory or a contested territory that already contains units of your power. A Land unit must end its move in a friendly zone or in a territory containing units belonging to your power. However land units in Africa can just move to an adjacent territory.

    This is far too different from what Larry is suggesting and should have it’s own thread
    This thread should be about Larry’s SM (love it, hate it, minor tweaks)



  • I´m ok with it beeing moved to the Possible Rules Change Thread of Krieghund,
    as long as you won`t shift it to the House Rules Board where nobody will read and discuss it anyway.

    😐



  • @Chacmool:

    Kim,

    how about this:

    All land units (Infantry, Artillery, Tanks) can move up to two spaces. When moving two spaces the first space must be a friendly territory or a contested territory that already contains units of your power. A Land unit must end its move in a friendly zone or in a territory containing units belonging to your power. However, land units in Africa can just move to an adjacent territory.

    That’s goes along with the latest rule clarification from Krieghund concerning moving from contested to contested, so that should work. The movement in Africa makes sense. Thanks

    Kim



  • @Chacmool:

    I�m ok with it beeing moved to the Possible Rules Change Thread of Krieghund,
    as long as you won`t shift it to the House Rules Board where nobody will read and discuss it anyway.

    😐

    That thread was more for the specific rule changes that has already been accepted. It really shouldn’t go there as it is a whole new topic and might cause confusion, especially since the rules change you are talking about now is not receiving official consideration.



  • I read these forums almost weekly but almost never post unless I feel I have something important to say.

    This is straying from everything that Axis & Allies is.

    I understand the game is clearly broken and that a change like this seems like it’ll help the balance (though i doubt it’s enough), but at the cost of this games classic mechanics. Axis & Allies isn’t set to represent history other than most of the starting setup and the alliances. How many people did you see complaining that it took an infantry unit like 6 turns to walk from the Soviet Far East to Moscow in Global 1940? A turn in that game was 4ish months I believe. Sure in reality those troops made it back to Moscow in a matter of 2-3 months. That was a minimum of 6 spaces in the game, meaning that those infantry should really be allowed to move 12 spaces or so a turn and engage in combat. Clearly this is absurd as it is so different from the core rules that make up Axis and Allies, just like strategic movement.

    As a quick side note, I hope no one is considering the +5 naval movement, I don’t want US units being transported into Istanbul every other turn.

    I propose that we do what we’ve always done, fix a game that WofC didn’t bother to playtest. Everyone was complaining about Global when it came out, and while people are still bitter about the whole Alpha 1-3+ thing at least it made the game fun and enjoyable. I see this rule change as a cheap way for Larry to stop people from complaining for a little while.

    I’m open to change, but please try to use Axis and Allies mechanics, not Risk ones.



  • @pokemaniac:

    I read these forums almost weekly but almost never post unless I feel I have something important to say.

    This is straying from everything that Axis & Allies is.

    I understand the game is clearly broken and that a change like this seems like it’ll help the balance (though i doubt it’s enough), but at the cost of this games classic mechanics. Axis & Allies isn’t set to represent history other than most of the starting setup and the alliances. How many people did you see complaining that it took an infantry unit like 6 turns to walk from the Soviet Far East to Moscow in Global 1940? A turn in that game was 4ish months I believe. Sure in reality those troops made it back to Moscow in a matter of 2-3 months. That was a minimum of 6 spaces in the game, meaning that those infantry should really be allowed to move 12 spaces or so a turn and engage in combat. Clearly this is absurd as it is so different from the core rules that make up Axis and Allies, just like strategic movement.

    As a quick side note, I hope no one is considering the +5 naval movement, I don’t want US units being transported into Istanbul every other turn.

    I propose that we do what we’ve always done, fix a game that WofC didn’t bother to playtest. Everyone was complaining about Global when it came out, and while people are still bitter about the whole Alpha 1-3+ thing at least it made the game fun and enjoyable. I see this rule change as a cheap way for Larry to stop people from complaining for a little while.

    I’m open to change, but please try to use Axis and Allies mechanics, not Risk ones.

    You should post this on Larry’s site.


  • Customizer

    Me at least. I’ve long argued for rail movement in non-combat in all Axis and Allies games; it was no less important in WWII.

    Now that Larry is beginning to accept the advantages of it, I confidently expect to see it become standard, and the games improved as a result.

    @pokemaniac:

    How many people did you see complaining that it took an infantry unit like 6 turns to walk from the Soviet Far East to Moscow in Global 1940?



  • "Me at least. I’ve long argued for rail movement in non-combat in all Axis and Allies games; it was no less important in WWII.

    Now that Larry is beginning to accept the advantages of it, I confidently expect to see it become standard, and the games improved as a result."

    Agreed.  Probably the thing that bugs me the most about G40 is the 18 Soviet infantry in the Far East, with no supporting tanks, aircraft, etc.  It should be maybe 6-8 infantry, an artillery or two, plus a tank and a fighter (and maybe a minor factory).  It seems like a cheezy way to keep the Soviet-Japanese non-aggression pact in effect.  The Soviets don’t have an offensive capability (unless they are willing to take disproportionate casualties) or any way to reinforce quickly.  The Japanese are somewhat deterred because an attack would be an expensive distraction.  If there was rail movement, the forces could be more realistic, and the Soviet player would be able to shift them back and forth (to save Moscow at the last minute) in a reasonably timely manner.  The Japanese would have an incentive to try to cut the rail line.

    The problem is figuring out how many units to allow each player to rail move in G40.  I’m toying with a system of maybe dividing total player income by 10, and allowing that many units to rail move.  So if you have 55 IPCs in your hand at the end of combat, you can rail move 5.5 - rounded up to 6 - units.

    Edit:  My reason for linking rail movement to income is twofold.  1.  If your economy is doing better, you’d have more money to spend on maintaining rail lines, even though the cost is abstracted into the game.  2.  It might help speed up the game, as it would allow players to maintain the momentum on the offensive, as their lines of supply get extended.


  • Customizer

    Is the requirement of an infantry in each territory still enforced at the end of place new units, or after Strategic Movement (or both?)



  • SM is its own phase, so both.


  • Customizer

    Anyone tried a Russian defence of Italy?

    Build a Russian super-stack and rail it west; to Serbia if its available. Assuming Germany is going all-out for Paris, Austria has to either take on the RSS directly, or cover Vienna against it. You can build new Russian forces to take back anything the enemy takes in Russia, and move your stack towards Venice to effectively fork the Austrian army.

    This could be a major spoiler of the Central Powers’ new found mobility.



  • sounds like the long distance move is going to be retired after a short career, 2 moves when through controlled TT’s seem to be the order of the day.


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