• @WILD:

    Texas, back on the first page of this thread I kinda started the whole France can keep their income steady, and increase it if they want to as the CP take their European lands by French control of Portugal, African lands, and various neutrals (the others have been backing that up w/their own experiences). The UK can easily add to their own income by spending heavily in India the first 3 turns, and gaining the neutral/Turk lands (and containing Africa).

    Now the Russians may not be tipped off yet that the CP are going hard Paris, because Germany hasn’t taken its first turn yet, but they generally don’t fight for Poland in our games (just gets their units killed), and only activate Romania (if Austria didn’t attack it A1). The Russians have adopted a move everything they can to the Ukraine (about 40 units), and retreat if the CP are gunning for them. On R2 the Russians will see that the CP are going west, and adapt accordingly. BTW our Russians always hit the Turk navy R1 or R2, and live with what ever results. They can generally at least remove one cruiser for someone else to finish them off.

    This leaves the Austrians to deal with a massive Russian army that moves everything to Ukraine R1 (40+ units). Don’t get me wrong, the Austrian can hold back the Russian (have even seen them gain an advantage if the Russians attack), but they aren’t going to be threatening Rome with just their starting forces adjacent to Venice. The Italians know this, and start building transports to make landing in the Balkans or later landings on the French Med coast to help out Paris. The French have also activated Albania for the Italians on F1 in nearly every game so far, so the Italians already have a starting force in the Balkans to use in their first turn.

    When the Germans go hard to Paris, the French will see it on their first turn and do mostly inf buys and pull back (the French will have about the same number of total units as the Germans in the first German attack on Paris, somewhere around 50 I think). They are tipped off because the Germans will need to pull back from the Russian front (move those units back to Berlin, and add G1 purchases) to have the strength to capture Paris (second assault). The French don’t need any help from UK early on because Paris is so far away from Berlin. The French can keep their income steady at 25- 30 IPCs (or more) all the way until Paris is contested depending on what they take. The Germans can assault Paris on the 5th turn, but need their G1 buys (and the units they pulled from the Russian front) to hit Paris again on G6. The French get to add units in between (when Paris is contested), and they will have somewhere near 25ish IPCs at that time (because of their other holdings). By this time the French/UK/Italy will have removed any CP navy in the Med, and will be full steam ahead to the Atlantic (Italy probably stays in the Med in case Austria gets cocky, but the US has war ships for defense in the Atlantic). The Western allies don’t need to attack the German fleet, because they aren’t landing in German territories at this time, they’re going for French coastal territories (probably Brest to bridge starting UK units from Wales). It doesn’t mater what the Germans have bought for navy (like you said the Germans aren’t going to take London), because they would have to attack a combined 3 power navy w/multiple BBs in UK mined sz’s, and the UK will be buying only navy for sz 7 from turn 4 on. If they have to they will lay out a build for sacrifice, and would be happy to have the Germans attack them with their friends near by for a counter double/tipple attack on a weakened German navy.

    What we have seen in our games is UK spending heavily in India the first few turns (ignoring London) to either get units to Russia if its a kill Russia first (or force Rus Rev gave), or to take out the Turks if the CP are going hard to the west. The UK doesn’t attempt to rebuild the home fleet early on. The Germans sometimes add to their fleet, but it doesn’t really make much difference to the western front because the German fleet has to move though the UK mined sz’s to make landings anywhere near the western front (we have seen them lose transports to mines in several games). Early in games the allies have moved nearly all navy to the Med to double/triple hit any CP navy (stopping when their BBs are on their side to preserve them), then start reorganizing their fleets towards the Atlantic to get units from England to the French coast in turn 4 -6.

    Texas, I’m not as critical as the others are about the games you’ve played, but I do question heavy German naval builds starting G1 (we have gone that route as well, didn’t end good though). I think the Germans can afford to build some navy once they get the ground units built and are heading in the right direction. Maybe start filtering in some early naval builds for the Germans to force a reaction from the allies (then a heavy turn 3 naval build?), but the naval dominance the allies enjoy is really hard to over come (you would need great dice IMO).  I think your allied players need to play a bit more defensive, because if the allies are aggressive in the beginning and try to contest territories they generally just lose many units to a much stronger CP force, that will cause their collapse. If the French & Russians pull back and be more patient (see the full CP plan, and wait for help), and force the CP to make attacks on well defended land (even if its all the way back to their capital), then they are much harder to take down. The allies need to be more selective in their battles. This along with the UK goes heavy India the first 3 turns to help the battles to the east is a very powerful tool (you guys should try it out to see for your selves).

    I’m not throwing the towel in on the CP as others have done either. This is a strange game though in the respect it is generally the axis (CP) that have a straight forward approach, and the Allies that have a longer learning curve. This game is defiantly the opposite LOL.  In our next game as the CP we know we have to be more focused, and will be looking at limiting what I though were a couple minor mistakes. It is also much easier for the allies to recover from mistakes then the CP IMO. Good gaming Texas!!  It seems right for someone from Texas to be a hold out, its kinda like the Alamo all over again LOL

    Thanks for the response, what happens if the Germans don’t attack Paris with a 50 vs 50 stack and hold just outside and wait for reinforcements or bait the French into attacking?  The Germans are gong to lose half their units on an attack like that and I agree, the Germans have no chance of winning it.  What is France’s income at about that time?  I think that basic plan is impossible to win as you would be losing more troops than you are reinforcing with.  I think a mistake people are making with the CPs are they are being too aggressive.  What do the Russians typically do in your games after the Germans take Poland, but they aren’t going full force towards Russia (and Austria isn’t going to attack a 40-man stack either)?  Couldn’t the Germans walk up the coast while the Russians hunker down.  At some point they will have to spread out a bit to prevent the loss of all their territory.  I agree with the learning curve though.  The way it is set up makes it look like you have to play it the same way you play WWII and be ultra aggressive with the CPs when you have to use a restrained aggressiveness.  Funny thing is that I am not from Texas, its a play on the card game Texas Hold’em.


  • @Texas:

    Thanks for the response, what happens if the Germans don’t attack Paris with a 50 vs 50 stack and hold just outside and …. bait the French into attacking?Â

    Don’t count on the other player to throw the game away for your strat to be good.


  • @vonLettowVorbeck1914:

    @Texas:

    Thanks for the response, what happens if the Germans don’t attack Paris with a 50 vs 50 stack and hold just outside and …. bait the French into attacking?�

    Don’t count on the other player to throw the game away for your strat to be good.

    Don’t count on which player to throw the game and what strat are you referring to?


  • @Texas:

    Thanks for the response, what happens if the Germans don’t attack Paris with a 50 vs 50 stack and hold just outside and …. bait the French into attacking?�

    That would be awesome if the French attacked, but very unlikely (they have bought mostly inf if you’re gunning for Paris). If you delay for a turn, you also play into their hands, because the UK/Italians are already starting to arrive on the French beaches, and would be defending Paris on your first attack. The next game as Germany I plan on keeping a better supply of reinforcements coming (last game some new units went to help against Russia). I also plan on having a small 10+ unit Austrian force w/me to head off some of the allied landings.  I will again beef up the German navy G3, G4 to challenge what they can bring over from England (especially if they build mostly India for a while).

    One game (going hard Paris) I had a brain fart around turn 3 or 4 and tried to land some Germans in Karelia to put some pressure on Russia (through the Baltic). I killed the Russia BB, and the only ship that hit his mines was my transport LOL. Needless to say I was PO’ed, but what was worse was I put my self out of position and allowed the UK to drop transports off England (he had built mostly India the first 3 turns).  I had a decent size navy at the time, and they would have built navy, but it would have been mostly warships, and fewer transports. I had a good chance to keep the waters clear, or make him fight to cross the Channel, but messed it up. By time I engaged him it was too late, the damage was done. Next time I will not leave the North Sea, live and learn. The Italians & US would still have saved Paris though by landings in Marseilles/Bordeaux. The UK could build navy in sz8 to block the German fleet out, and allow the US to land troops in Bordeaux turn 5, or the US/Italians come up together through the Med from Marseilles (takes longer). It would be next to impossible for the German fleet to cut off the Med route.


  • @Texas:

    @vonLettowVorbeck1914:

    @Texas:

    Thanks for the response, what happens if the Germans don’t attack Paris with a 50 vs 50 stack and hold just outside and …. bait the French into attacking?�Â

    Don’t count on the other player to throw the game away for your strat to be good.

    Don’t count on which player to throw the game and what strat are you referring to?

    Exactly what I quoted. If you “bait” the French into attacking in the situation you describe, you did not do a good move, they did an awful one.


  • @vonLettowVorbeck1914:

    @Texas:

    @vonLettowVorbeck1914:

    @Texas:

    Thanks for the response, what happens if the Germans don’t attack Paris with a 50 vs 50 stack and hold just outside and …. bait the French into attacking?��

    Don’t count on the other player to throw the game away for your strat to be good.

    Don’t count on which player to throw the game and what strat are you referring to?

    Exactly what I quoted. If you “bait” the French into attacking in the situation you describe, you did not do a good move, they did an awful one.

    Yeah in the scenario I described the French built mostly inf, so there is no way they would be attacking any time soon (maybe turn 7ish). If you stall though, they would just continue to add to their home guard, but probably switch to art/ftr/tank builds as the other allies start landing on the beaches turn 4-6 to take over the defensive duties of Paris (allowing the French to go offensive). If you don’t contest Paris as soon as you can (turn 4 or 5) and eventually take it, the French will have 25+ IPC to spend each turn, and with the other allies defending Paris now your offensive is now in retreat IMO, because your reinforcements can’t match them. You’re not going to bait the French into attacking you any time soon if you stall, but you will eventually give them the upper hand IMO and they will push you back. Your window for Paris is early, but then you need to figure out how to defend Paris if you indeed take it, so you can keep it long enough to get the 2nd allied capital for the win. This means that Austria has to be doing well vs Russia, or Italy to attempt that second capital, and maybe be in a position to add to the defense of Paris (that’s why you clear Switzerland to allow the Austrians a faster path to Paris).


  • @vonLettowVorbeck1914:

    @Texas:

    @vonLettowVorbeck1914:

    @Texas:

    Thanks for the response, what happens if the Germans don’t attack Paris with a 50 vs 50 stack and hold just outside and …. bait the French into attacking?��

    Don’t count on the other player to throw the game away for your strat to be good.

    Don’t count on which player to throw the game and what strat are you referring to?

    Exactly what I quoted. If you “bait” the French into attacking in the situation you describe, you did not do a good move, they did an awful one.

    Well, you quoted out of context as I wasn’t proposing that as a strat.  I was asking what the French player does when the German player doesn’t take the bait and attack Paris.  It is a terrible move for the Germans to take the bait in that situation as well.


  • How would France have 25+ a turn when they turtled up in Paris and allowed the Germans to take all their European territory.  The math isn’t adding up for me.  Wouldn’t they just have Paris, Portugal, and some territories in Africa?  I would think 15-18 would be the max they would have at that point.


  • @Texas:

    How would France have 25+ a turn when they turtled up in Paris and allowed the Germans to take all their European territory.  The math isn’t adding up for me.  Wouldn’t they just have Paris, Portugal, and some territories in Africa?  I would think 15-18 would be the max they would have at that point.

    Spain, Morocco.

    The thing is they will not be as big if Germany attacks them first instead of Russia.
    BUT…Then Russia will be big lol
    OR…Austria goes all in for Russia, now Germany must fight both French and Italy for 6 turns then USA too!

    The Axis (CP) problems in 1914 do not exist in other A&A games because of long range units (aircraft and tanks) and more factories + ability to make more factories.
    All land units moving 1, no real air game and only 1 factory per nation cripples the axis (CP) whereas it does not make much difference for the Allies, mainly because UK and USA build their units and load them onto transports the very next turn, which have the same movement as other A&A games.


  • @Texas:

    How would France have 25+ a turn when they turtled up in Paris and allowed the Germans to take all their European territory.  The math isn’t adding up for me.  Wouldn’t they just have Paris, Portugal, and some territories in Africa?  I would think 15-18 would be the max they would have at that point.

    In our games France usually has Spain, Portugal, Spanish Morocco, Togoland, Kamerun, and sometimes Southwest Africa. That is +10. They also have +6 IPCs worth of territories in Africa. (We’re assuming by around turn 4-5 that the Germans in Africa have been neutralized). So even if they just has Paris, France would make about 21-22 IPCs a turn.


  • @Uncrustable:

    @Texas:

    How would France have 25+ a turn when they turtled up in Paris and allowed the Germans to take all their European territory.� The math isn’t adding up for me.� Wouldn’t they just have Paris, Portugal, and some territories in Africa?� I would think 15-18 would be the max they would have at that point.

    Spain, Morocco.

    The thing is they will not be as big if Germany attacks them first instead of Russia.
    BUT…Then Russia will be big lol
    OR…Austria goes all in for Russia, now Germany must fight both French and Italy for 6 turns then USA too!

    The Axis (CP) problems in 1914 do not exist in other A&A games because of long range units (aircraft and tanks) and more factories + ability to make more factories.
    All land units moving 1, no real air game and only 1 factory per nation cripples the axis (CP) whereas it does not make much difference for the Allies, mainly because UK and USA build their units and load them onto transports the very next turn, which have the same movement as other A&A games.

    Okay…I thought France was retreating to Paris, when would they take Spain?  Sp. Morocco was included in my count already.

    What CP strats have you tried or seen tried?  We have never established that.


  • How much have folks been using subs as the CPs?  I am starting to lean towards them being better than battleships (BBs very useful for home port defense though).  They can bypass enemy ships, very difficult to kill off, force the US to escort their transports to land forces…  An interesting option with Germany is to create sub swarms and utilize USW.


  • USW is nigh USeless. 1/3 chance of 1 sub doing only 1 ipc of income damage. It takes on average 9 turns to get your investment back.

    Submerging may seem cool but it’s really not that hard to hit the subs when you are attacking at 3 or 4.


  • @vonLettowVorbeck1914:

    USW is nigh USeless. 1/3 chance of 1 sub doing only 1 ipc of income damage. It takes on average 9 turns to get your investment back.

    Submerging may seem cool but it’s really not that hard to hit the subs when you are attacking at 3 or 4.

    That is using the assumption that the only reason you bought the sub was for USW.

    If there are 10 subs, it may be bit more difficult, not to mention any subs you do hit have a 1 in 3 chance of returning the favor.


  • To hit on a few battleships who shrug them off. Battleships have been lowered in price, but not in effectiveness. Subs have stayed the same price from Global, but are much more anemic.

    It doesn’t really matter why one thinks it’s a good idea to buy subs, it matters how effective they are. The weakness of the submerge, the lack of the first strike, and the nigh pointlessness in economic warfare make them not worth the investment.


  • It depends on how many battleships you brought with you, may roll instead of submerge.  10 subs will cause approx 3 hits, but you also have to take the damaged battleship back to port.

    I assume your comments are based on game play and you didn’t even touch on their most effective use.


  • Texas hmm… I don’t think Prussia can afford to deploy such navy.


  • They can as long as you aren’t sacrificing your troops at the gates of Paris.  For some reason, a lot of people seem to think the CPs have to capture Paris as fast as they can to win.  They don’t and using that strat doesn’t work anyway.


  • And can you defend your rerritories from france and russia?
    What is AH doing? You cant really attack Itaky with Franxe full support?


  • You have plenty to defend, if France and Russia are attacking, it’s a good thing.

    France typically falls back to defend.  It’s kind of hard to describe something this complex and fluid in a sentence or two.  Way too many variables.  AH can also disrupt the Med.


  • @Texas:

    You have plenty to defend, if France and Russia are attacking, it’s a good thing.

    France typically falls back to defend.  It’s kind of hard to describe something this complex and fluid in a sentence or two.  Way too many variables.  AH can also disrupt the Med.

    When Germany is buying as heavily naval as you describe, if France is still falling back, it is their error and decidedly not the merits of the CP strategy that determine such an unnecessary retreat, unless of course Russia is just being ignored until they get next to Berlin or Vienna.

    France and Russia are attacking Germany, Germany is buying Naval units which means they have less to defend with and, more importantly, less to attack with (they need to capture capitals eventually), and that is a good thing? I think what we really need from your tests are evaluations of the Allied play, not general CP strats that seem to be using much more resources than the CP have.

    At what point in this Naval strat do the CP actually start advancing on land?

    What does the income situation look like when Germany buys all these ships and barely attacks?


  • @vonLettowVorbeck1914:

    @Texas:

    You have plenty to defend, if France and Russia are attacking, it’s a good thing.

    France typically falls back to defend.�  It’s kind of hard to describe something this complex and fluid in a sentence or two.�  Way too many variables.�  AH can also disrupt the Med.

    When Germany is buying as heavily naval as you describe, if France is still falling back, it is their error and decidedly not the merits of the CP strategy that determine such an unnecessary retreat, unless of course Russia is just being ignored until they get next to Berlin or Vienna.

    France and Russia are attacking Germany, Germany is buying Naval units which means they have less to defend with and, more importantly, less to attack with (they need to capture capitals eventually), and that is a good thing? I think what we really need from your tests are evaluations of the Allied play, not general CP strats that seem to be using much more resources than the CP have.

    At what point in this Naval strat do the CP actually start advancing on land?

    What does the income situation look like when Germany buys all these ships and barely attacks?

    Well, for starters, at what point does France or Russia decide to attack.  No one provides any answer to that.  I had asked once before and I was met with response that France won’t attack and expecting them to is an error in the CP strat. CPs advance on land beginning turn 1.  It is a limited advance rather than doing nothing (don’t attack the big stacks).  Take what they give you.  On G1, Germany takes Poland, Belgium, Holland, and African territories.  I am not saying to buy all naval, but if you aren’t as aggressive on the offensive, you aren’t losing as much either.  Income situation is dependent on what the Allies do, but Germany is pushing 50 by turn 3.


  • In every one of our games, if Germany buys Navy the UK can easily match whatever Germany buys and still has plenty left over to buy in India.

    Meanwhile, because Germany is buying navy, France can easily match Germany’s ground forces because they have absolutely no need to buy navy with the UK footing that bill. The UK isn’t in danger of ever losing London so they can pretty much focus on neutralizing the CP navy.

    If AH buys navy as well then France might have to start throwing out a BB or CA from Marseilles before the US arrives, but then Italy and Russia are outproducing ground troops.


  • @Texas:

    Well, for starters, at what point does France or Russia decide to attack.  No one provides any answer to that.

    Of course not. You were the one present at your games in which the CP are doing this mysteriously effective strat, not me.


  • @Texas:

    I had asked once before and I was met with response that France won’t attack and expecting them to is an error in the CP strat.

    That’s a pretty huge misinterpretation. You were describing a specific situation where Germany was adjacent to Paris and the French and German armies were equal there. How the fact that France attacking in that situation is a terrible idea became interpreted into being a statement where France should never attack in any situation is beyond me.

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