Would the Allies win without Russia in the real war?


  • Moderator

    Well the Infantry would have said were the tanks were!!!

    As for AA defenses Why would they even send up any Fighters? If their purpose was to support Infantry then they would have been there despite the AA… My point is they would have had an Air superiority that would have defeated anything…

    GG



  • What infantry? The ones fighting for the beaches? Yes, the Allies did have air superiority, but they had not destroyed AA guns. They just had air superiority over enemy aircraft.


  • Moderator

    @Begoner:

    What infantry? The ones fighting for the beaches? Yes, the Allies did have air superiority, but they had not destroyed AA guns. They just had air superiority over enemy aircraft.

    Yes the ones on the beaches and the ones inland… And they could have destroyed those(the infantry that is)…



  • The above is a fact, if you dont belive me look in any history book or WW2 website. The Credit of defeating the germans must go mainly to the soviets and the british. in 1940 the britsh fought the germans alone and withstood crippling city bombardments as well as staggaring losses in the atlantic dealt by german U-boats. The British were close to collapse on June 22 1941 when the bulk of the Luftwaffe transfered to Poland For Operation Barbarossa: the invasion of the Soviet union. The Soviets Halted the German offensive in front of moscow in december 1941 and began to push the Germans back. The Soviets fought the war Virtually on their own until june 6th 1944 when the allies landed in Normandy.

    Now if you look at the numbers youll see what im getting at.
    D-Day Was successfull only because the germans were on the verge of collapse and had lost any hope of winning the war in the east.
    When the Allies hit the coast of France in 1944, the German defenders were understrength, outnumbered and totaly demoralised.
    The Nazis had already lost the war when Tom Hanks got off of his landing craft in Saving private Ryan. 🙂

    The total amount of geman divsions created throughout the war was 247

    Roughly 15 Occupied Europe, 4 fought in north africa and 30-35 were stationed in france from 1944-45. That leaves the rest, about 190-195 divisions, Fighting on the Russian Front.
    if The Western Allies had as much trouble as they did in 1944 with 30-35 divisions, what could they have done against all the other 200 from 1941 onward ?

    i should also point out that while American war-supplies were much appretiated, the amount sent in the crucial first years of 1941-42 was tiny, for the first half of the war the American economic aid added up to about 0.05% of Soviet Industruial Capacity.

    Could the allies win the war withought russia? not bloody likley.



  • For the love of Jesus!!! :x
    Or as Janus1 would say “Jesus tap-dancing christ!”

    I dont know how to say this to u so you guys will understand–—

    HITLER HATES COMMUNISTS!!! :x :x :x :x

    HE WROTE ABOUT A WAR WITH USSR when he was 15!!!
    HIS WHOLE PLAN OF RISING TO POWER WAS TO TAKE MORE LEBENSRAUM!!! LEBENSRAUM IS THE WORLD ISLAND WHICH CONSUMES ABOUT 95 % OF THE USSR!!! SO UNLESS STALIN INVADED HIM FIRST HE WAS ALWAYS GONNA ATTACK THE RUSKIES!!!

    whooaa!
    Does every1 understand this now?



  • Thats not nessisarily true. Hitler hated Communists, and wanted to invade the U.S.S.R but that has little to do with why he invaded it.
    1940, while the Germans and Russians were at peace Russia had a war with finland which went very badly for the red army. This, along with the Officer Purges of 1937 gave the Germans the impression that Soviet Union was weak and could be easily defeated. Hitler attacked the U.S.S.R because he thought he could win. Had he realised in 1941(as he had in late 1942), that an attack on the Soviet Union even if maby possible to win, would result in such tremendous losses of German manpower he never would have started the war in the east. And neither would Stalin.

    In short, Hitlers decision to attack the U.S.S.R came mainly from military power, his political reasons were obvios, but he never would have acted on them if he hadnt had the means.



  • @MuthaRussia:

    HE WROTE ABOUT A WAR WITH USSR when he was 15!!!

    This is a figure of speech, isn’t it?
    Otherwise, well, hmmm…… you can guess what i would say.



  • back on topic. we would have won without russia,but it would have been much harder. what would have happened if hitler hadnt double crossed his “partner” and russia had fought with the germans?



  • @F_alk:

    @MuthaRussia:

    HE WROTE ABOUT A WAR WITH USSR when he was 15!!!

    This is a figure of speech, isn’t it?
    Otherwise, well, hmmm…… you can guess what i would say.

    He actually did! In Ian Kershaws book “Hitler” when hitlers was from the ages 14-21, he would give hour-long speeches to his old chum August Kubizeck…It said in the book, its not a figure of speech!



  • Ok …

    from the beginning

    Hitler: born 1889
    thus, was 14 in the year 1903; 15 in 1904, 21 in 1910.
    The USSR was founded during WWI in 1917.

    Do you see the slight impossibility of Hitler writing (which is btw not the same as long-hour speeches) about a war with the USSR when he was 15?



  • Good point, but theres more to his hatred than that!!!

    He still planned on taking the Russian steppes, that added to his lebensraum theory, once russia became communist his desire to attack it grew!

    and sorry, he wasnt just 15 it was when he was 13-35 yrs old were his prime days of what i said…



  • @marine36:

    back on topic. we would have won without russia,but it would have been much harder. what would have happened if hitler hadnt double crossed his “partner” and russia had fought with the germans?

    in 1940 the germans attacked france. France fell in weeks.
    in 1944 the germans were in full retreat on the eastern front, they had lost most of their military to the russians. Their ranks were now bieng filled with men to old for regular service in the VolkSturm and boys as young as 12 in the Hitler youth.

    The allies landed on june the 6th and outnumbered the germans at least five to one on every beach and in every concentrated effort, as well as having total domination in the sky.

    despite these alarming figures, the western allies had tremendous difficulties advancing through france and it took them several months to punch through the demoralised, outnumbered, and beaten germans and liberate north western france.

    Hitler lost more than 80% of The Wehrmacht in the Soviet Union.
    if there had been no war with russia do you really think that the allies could even withstand such might in England, much less try to land in Normandy??.



  • About the the use of nuclear weapons…

    The US did not veiw the Japanease as humans, thus it was okay, in their minds, to nuke them. But they veiwed the Germans as humans so I doubt they would have used nuclear weapons. Hitler did not use gas as a weapon during the war as he knew how evil such a weapon was. And if Hitler could see that if a weapon is to evil then it should not be used I am certain that the US would have seen this too.



  • hitler was evil, the reason he didnt use gas weapons was because he had suffered form a gas attack in ww1. nazis were not human, humans dont make lampshades out of human skin and sit back to admire it, we viewed the germans as humans because we had not yet liberated any death camps.


  • Moderator

    @marine36:

    hitler was evil, the reason he didnt use gas weapons was because he had suffered form a gas attack in ww1. nazis were not human, humans dont make lampshades out of human skin and sit back to admire it, we viewed the germans as humans because we had not yet liberated any death camps.

    THe Germans were human the Nazis were not… some Germans perished in the Gas Chambers and Death Camps…

    GG



  • the germans of today are normal people, but i cant help but disgusted at the fact that their forefathers were sick murderers.

    glad im not a german 😄 ^^



  • Yup, your forefathers murdered native americans and black slaves. Seems like that is less sick.


  • Moderator

    @F_alk:

    Yup, your forefathers murdered native americans and black slaves. Seems like that is less sick.

    The point is they had a reason to do it(although it was a lame reason)…THe Nazis didn’t

    For our Motherland, That did not quite match up to a good argument… what if you are a German descendant? :-? Guess that means you got killer blood in you…? And the country of your name (Russia) inh soviet times killed more then the NAzis…so what would it matter if you were russian?

    GG



  • @Guerrilla:

    @F_alk:

    Yup, your forefathers murdered native americans and black slaves. Seems like that is less sick.

    The point is they had a reason to do it(although it was a lame reason)…THe Nazis didn’t

    For our Motherland, That did not quite match up to a good argument… what if you are a German descendant? :-? Guess that means you got killer blood in you…? And the country of your name (Russia) inh soviet times killed more then the NAzis…so what would it matter if you were russian?

    GG

    1. this is more “discussion forum” type stuff
    2. none of this particular post means anything to me (i.e. it is kind of non-sensical. The Americans had reasons for murdering blacks and natives, but the Nazis did not have reasons for also murdering people? This is stupidity wrapped around racism. There is an unfortunate history in the blood of every person in this world. Currently Germany is one of the more peaceful countries in the world, with a heck-of-a conscience when it comes to international relationships and actions (relative to many others).


  • murder blacks?


  • Moderator

    @cystic:

    @Guerrilla:

    @F_alk:

    Yup, your forefathers murdered native americans and black slaves. Seems like that is less sick.

    The point is they had a reason to do it(although it was a lame reason)…THe Nazis didn’t

    For our Motherland, That did not quite match up to a good argument… what if you are a German descendant? :-? Guess that means you got killer blood in you…? And the country of your name (Russia) inh soviet times killed more then the NAzis…so what would it matter if you were russian?

    GG

    1. this is more “discussion forum” type stuff
    2. none of this particular post means anything to me (i.e. it is kind of non-sensical. The Americans had reasons for murdering blacks and natives, but the Nazis did not have reasons for also murdering people? This is stupidity wrapped around racism. There is an unfortunate history in the blood of every person in this world. Currently Germany is one of the more peaceful countries in the world, with a heck-of-a conscience when it comes to international relationships and actions (relative to many others).

    I didn’t say it was right… IT was dead wrong… US was just as bad… should ahve said that outright…

    GG



  • @F_alk:

    Yup, your forefathers murdered native americans and black slaves. Seems like that is less sick.

    as my name clearly suggests, im russian so i dont know wtf you are talking about ( native americans?)

    as to the second, more sensical comment made by guerrila guy:

    the “killing” that you speak of was done by The N.K.V.D, not “the russian people”, and i should add that the statistics about this killing are greatly greatly exagerated in west (particularly in the usa)

    heres a good paper on the topic: http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=75http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=75

    Soviet Union : a country whose secret police sent people to hard labor centers for long periods of time, many of them innocent of any crime.

    Nazi Germany: a Fascist, Rascist state, who’s ideology called for brutal repression and ensavment of all peoples deemed inferior “Untermenschen” (Slavs, jews, roma, gypsies) and implemented Mobile killing squads (EinsatzGruppen) to commit mass murder in occupied eastern europe directed at jews, Russian officers and intellectuals. ( these units were filled not only by Gestapo and SS, but by commen wehrmact soldiers, picked out from their divisions)

    The germans policy towards Soviet Prisoners of war was inhuman, and not fit even for farm cattle. Barbaric treatment of all “Untermenchen” was taught and encouraged.

    The Third reich is the only Modern state to have completly devoted its self to the systematic extermination of whole races and ethnic groups.



  • every one is getting off topic here.



  • I agree with CC here…. and apologize for furthering the “off-topic-ness”.



  • @ForOurMotherland:

    the germans of today are normal people, but i cant help but disgusted at the fact that their forefathers were sick murderers.

    glad im not a german 😄 ^^

    This is bull. Most germans didn’t have any choice for what happened, this is a rather ignorant comment! :roll:


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