Would the Allies win without Russia in the real war?



  • What would happen if Russia wasn’t part of the Allied Union? Would the Allies eventually win but would take awhile longer then before?
    Or they would loose the Pacific and Atlantic leaving the Americains and British completely out of hand to supplying each other?

    For any reason the British would definately loose it’s colonys in Asia (India) and would of lost the battle for Africa giving the Germans all the oil they need wicth would solve half of their problems. The Germans all they
    would need to build would be the LuftWaffe and their navy.

    Japan would for sure won the battle for Asia with ease. The British would not be able to supply it with troops and supplys. Japan could take the rich treasures of Asia and buy steel and oil to supply their navy in the Pacific Theater.

    Definately the Germans could of finally used their Secret Weapons of WW2 (the Natter Rocket, Panzer VIII,the new King Tiger 2 and the Flak Panzer that would definately be able to defend mobile armor without the fear the of air raids.

    At the end of the war many things were about to be finished but then scrapped because of budget reasons. A month after the invasion in Italy, the Italiens were just about finished building a Aircraft carrier, but then scrapped because of fear of getting into allied hands. A aircraft carrier in the Atlantic could change the tide of war. In the Danish Sea Germany was about to finish 2 Battleships and 3 Destroyers. Witch later was transformed into civilian transports before they could be used. With 2 Battleships,3 Destroyers,U-Boats and a Aircraft carrier would be a deadly combo in Naval combat.

    But don’t forget Britain and United States also had some weapons up their sleeves. If the Americains finished the Manhattan Project (Atomic Bomb) would that be able to change the tide of the war? Using strategic bombing and some faiths could that have change everything? If the British and americains had finally used the Goblin Fighter to used in the Pacific and Atlantic could that have won the war? Or what about the new British battle tank that had a anti-aircraft gun on board with a 145mm cannon wicth would of overpowerd any german vehicle.

    I guess we will never know but thats why their called Theories.
    Please answer with a smart reply.



  • Definitely Axis victory would have been far closer. After all, lack of natural resources was what hindered the German war effort the most.

    Lack of oil and aluminium was what made the Luftwaffe unable to afford enough losses to defend against strategic bombing. Heck, the Germans made synthetic oil out of coal, and the Japanese extracted fuel out of pine cones 😄

    Of course, lack of manpower would have remained a problem, but if USSR had fallen Germany would have had one front less to worry about. Also, with sufficient industrial capacity I suppose you can make up for the lack of manpower by building troops with a high combatpower/personnel ratio. A tank with 6 crew would be far more powerful than 6 infantrymen with rifles. But of course, you’d have to find some way to prevent the enemy from countering with panzerfausts :-?



  • It is of course very interesting to indulge in these ideas but I would like to be the bucket of cold water here.
    It was attributed to Stalin (rightly or wrongly) that the Soviets brought men to the war, the Americans equipment and resources and the British time. This was an acknowledgment of the fact that in summer 1940 it was only Britain and its empire and the commonwealth which stood against a German dominated Europe.
    The point which I think is to be kept in mind is that it was, of course, the Germans who declared war on Russia in 1941. As is sort of suggested in the first piece, Stalin was hoping to have time to build up.
    Another aspect to be considered is that whilst many talk about those terror weapons and new technologies remember that it was only at the end of the war that some of these began to come on line. Hitler had dismissed rocket projects in 1940 as he believed the war would be over before they could be employed. This went to the extent of sending the various technicians and scientists into the army to serve as soldiers.
    It was only after the war had expanded to include the USA (on whom war was declared by Germany) (again taking the initiative) and the USSR that the Germans began to track down their former experts (some of whom were serving on the Eastern Front as infantrymen so not exactly a recognition of their potential war-winning skills) and kickstart their program back into life again. Remember also that Hitler continued to interfere throughout. When the very effective Me-262 was looking like a viable jet fighter (in 1945 a group of these planes caused considerable damage to a USAF bombing group which had massive fighter protection and yet still took no losses themselves) and yet Hitler requested it be changed into a plane with bomber characteristics to be able to attack England. This hindered and delayed development.
    However, this notwithstanding, clearly it was the weight of the Soviets which prevented the Germans from deploying themselves totally to the West. But evenso, it was again Hitlers desire to hold territory in the East rather than withdraw. It was his wish to keep most of the German army in Russia.
    The personality of the fuhrer and his interference is what prevented many of the programs taking place. Of course, would there still have been a war without him is something else entirely.
    As regards Japan. Well, yes they certainly enjoyed great success. But again we are ignoring one factor: in 1941 the USA had an army of 170,000 and still had huge numbers of unemployed. As I understand it, its economy had not properly recovered from the Depression either. There was enormous capacity in the USA. This should not be underestimated. At wars start the USA had a handful of carriers. (About 9). By 1945 there must have been at least 40 in the Pacific alone and all the time production methods were getting better, industry was turning out more and more and more. THis was something the Axis powers could not have hoped to compete with. What they needed was a USA which would have no stomach for a long fight. Thank goodness they were wrong.
    As for an Italian carrier and that German fleet which is very interesting by the way, I’m not at all convinced they would have been able to have executed a link up in the first place.
    Ok, thats my killjoy bit done.



  • Very good answers but youre still forgetten the topic of this story. THE RUSSIANS DID NOT ENTER THE WAR! The hole eastern army could be sent to France to denie any D-day. Hitler would of then continued the rocket projects againts Britain, and build up the Luftwaffe division to a massive scale that the British would not be able to compete with. U-boats would take care of the Atlantic and the Americains.

    Japan, after winning the battle for Asia, would be able to open another front for America. America would not be able to hold for long especially when Britain falls to German hands. The lines would close in america, and fulfilling the dreams of Axis power to finally walk into the original 13 colonys of america and fight for L.A. The germans actually had plans to bomb NewYork city with their new long range jet bomber wicth was scrapped because of Allied invasion.

    You can see how easily the Axis could of won without the nuissance of Russia. Actually in the real war Japan wanted to buy off the Russians out of the war with treasures that they found in Asia. But the problem was is that Stalin wanted no deal.Like i said before it all depends how the battles came out and if the secret weapons came out in time or meaby if they invented new ones. Peace out



  • STOP and THINK!

    The USA developed the atomic bomb first. If nessessary, I’m sure that they would have built more than 2 or 3, and used 'em without hesitation like they did on Japan. As long as US was not taken, there scientists would have made things work eventually, even if Britain was taken.



  • They could have not used them on japan soil because they would have not pushed them back as far and taken back islands withing striking distance.

    Anyways even if they did use the atomic bombs they would receive alot of attrition damage! If they bomb the Us coast they wouldnt have any clean water to drink and fishing would then be banned because of radiation. Radiation would end up hitting US soil because of winds.

    If the US somehow launch one on UK. they British would be pissed and declare war on germany, but if UK was already taken over then theire would be less resistance. Do you get what I mean?

    The americains would have to think before using the atomic bomb.



  • Just to tell you i made the latest reply.

    Piece of shit AUTO-SIGNING


  • Moderator

    That is BM that you give no chance for development(like long range bombers, Radar, IT, and the A-Bomb)….Regardless of Russia being out of the war The US would have eventually been sucked in and given them a full wack…THey would have beaten the Germans… Industrialists for some reason always beat Craftsmen.

    GG



  • germany wouldve taken over britain so fast it would make ur head spin and then the US wouldn’t even put up a fight; we would’ve let germany control europe. if anything, we would have just fought japan. my guess would then be that the US would control the pacific and germany all of europe


  • Moderator

    @Anonymous:

    germany wouldve taken over britain so fast it would make ur head spin and then the US wouldn’t even put up a fight; we would’ve let germany control europe. if anything, we would have just fought japan. my guess would then be that the US would control the pacific and germany all of europe

    You have the stance that superior arms means victor… maybe in times past, but ww2 proved it wrong… Germany didn’t try to take over Britain Because they had no effective beach landing Craft… The only way to land was by taking over a port, and British Fighters covered those. Plus the British had Better Defensive Fighters then the Germans had offensive(reverse it and the Brits stunk)…And with the advent of Radar… The US would have put up a fight! Already German Transports Picked up metal supplies in Allied Shipping lanes so effectively the US “sovereignty” was threatened. As far as Russia they still could have jumped in the war(they already hated the Germans with a feroicity!) And the Japanese were pipsqueaks when it came to war goods. They had one strike, depended solely on suprise and were too unflexible in Strategy plans. Coupled with the fact that Germany and Japan had to ship nearly all there war goods from foreign (or captured) and Threatened locations I see no reason why not the US/British Alliance could’ve done it alone.

    GG



  • @Guerrilla:

    That is BM that you give no chance for development(like long range bombers, Radar, IT, and the A-Bomb)….Regardless of Russia being out of the war The US would have eventually been sucked in and given them a full wack…THey would have beaten the Germans… Industrialists for some reason always beat Craftsmen.

    GG

    Industrialists don’t beat craftmenship! It’s the other way around! Do you think 1000 spearmen could defeat 10 soldiers with sub-machineguns? Another exemple, US may have a bigger force then Canada does, but our troops are better trained because we have a smaller force. Also we have the best commandos,snipers and ground support units in the world!!! I saw a competition for it. It was so cool.


  • 2019 Moderator

    Please tell me you are not saying that the Canadian “Army” could stand against the US Army. This isn’t 1812 :roll:

    And, I believe 1000 spearmen would easily overwelm 10 men with submachineguns. :-?


  • 2019 Moderator

    And as to the topic of this thread, the whole thing is pointless, The whole reason for WWII was Germany wanted to control eastern Europe and the western portions of the USSR. France, Africa and the Balkans were just annoying delays to Barbarossa.


  • Moderator

    @dezrtfish:

    Please tell me you are not saying that the Canadian “Army” could stand against the US Army. This isn’t 1812 :roll:

    And, I believe 1000 spearmen would easily overwelm 10 men with submachineguns. :-?

    I have Calculated it and the Spears would win! Remember Ten well trained SMG Troops still need Bullets supplied to them…What happens when they run out? Besides the Anology ydoesn’t exactly connect because In WW2 ,and we had weapons of the same Age, and We could produce more (we even had a better Rifle!)



  • Who cares about Canada? 75% of it is a frozen wasteland. Also, we would win that war any second… you guys are way to technical. We have better generals than they do and if you pair 50 morons with ten well trained soldiers, the outcome is obvious.



  • In 1939, the Wehrmacht attacked France with a 1:1 ratio in manpower. It took 3 weeks to overrun it.

    In 1944, the US and the UK landed with combined force in Normandy and advanced with a 3:1 manpower superiority, with a 5:1 superiority whenever they attacked. They had near complete air superiority. It took them 7 months to conquer France.

    That’s Prussian military tradition in action.

    I’m confident Germany could have won if Hitler just hadn’t messed up the battle plans so many times.

    The Dunkerque evacuation was only possible since Hitler panicked and ordered the panzer divisions to halt. A proper surrounding with the following tank shock would have destroyed whatever the British could have used to defend against an invasion.

    In the Battle of Britain, the Luftwaffe had almost destroyed the RAF and Britain was ripe for bombing or conquest, but suddenly a lone bomb raid over Berlin was regarded as a personal insult by Hitler, and he ordered the bombing of civilian London, giving the RAF time to recover.

    During fall 1941, Hitler ordered his troops to, instead of conquering Moscow, go towards Ukraine and its abundant food stores. Hitler moaned about how his generals don’t understand war economics, while the effects of conquering Moscow would have outweighed Ukraine heavily. The entire railroad network of USSR would have been messed up with the fall of Moscow. The army would have got proper winter shelter. The soldiers’ spirits would certainly have risen, and the Russians would most certainly have felt a huge blow to their morale.

    Hitler replaced several generals simply because they disagreed with him, which was very fatak for the armies’ front performance.

    And, most peculiar of all must be the failure to deal with Operation Overlord. Only a few hours’ drive from the beaches, there was a Panzer army which probably could have thrown back at least a few beachheads into the sea. It was though under Hitler’s personal command. At the time of the landing, Hitler was sleeping, and nobody was allowed to wake him up regardless of anything. Consequence? When Hitler finally woke up, several hours had passed and the beachheads were too well fortified to be assaulted.



  • if russia wasn’t attacked, the battle of britain wouldn’t have ended and the germans would have worn down the RAF. with no airfoce the germans could invade and conquer england in no more than 2 weeks. if england fell, the US would not take germany by itself. MAYBE we would have gone to war w/ japan but not with germany. germany wasn’t stupid enough to invade us, so they probably would have invaded russia next (probably summer/fall 1942 instead of 1941, so they would not have had to deal with one of the worst winters in russian history) and they would have conquered it, unless hitler was stupid enough to somehow ruin it. if germany could have conquered the USSR and the UK, they definitely would have been the most powerful country on earth and the third reich very well might have lasted 1000 years


  • 2019 Moderator

    Well of course, that’s because Hitler was secretly replaced in 1940 by a spy from New Zealand, sent back from the future. He was trained to mess everything up so that germany wouldn’t conquer the world.

    And now you know the rest of the story!
    😉


  • Moderator

    once again you assume they win by default with better trained men!


  • Moderator

    There was a Resistance i.e. France that destroyed a lot of Infrastructure and Mili targets that would have assisted in an invasion. Once again Germany never could have invaded Britain if they hadn’t captured a harbor, and the RAF was doing a good job. Plus they had BETTER planes if you look at the stat sheets! The ME-109’s were cut up by more Maneuverable Hurricanes.

    GG


  • Moderator

    Plus they were always short on rescources! And Russia would always win because there winter defeats anything…


  • 2019 Moderator

    @Guerrilla:

    Plus they had BETTER planes if you look at the stat sheets! The ME-109’s were cut up by more Maneuverable Hurricanes.

    GG

    I’m not sure where you got this information but is is generaly accepted that the Me109 was a better plane than the Hurricane.

    http://www.flightjournal.com/planes.asp



  • This is all pretty mindless, but I’ll add two cents:

    Assumption: Barbarossa is of no concern to Hitler. Therefore:

    • Germany would have put a lot more effort into Operation Sealion, and we would have seen D-Day in reverse on British soil. England could potentially have fallen, or at least London, by December 1941.

    • Japan would still have bombed Pearl Harbour and started war with the U.S. Hitler would side with his ally and declare war on the U.S.

    • That basically would make it Germany and Japan vs. U.S. I think the U.S. vs Germany would be a quiet stalemate, until Japan was dealt with.

    • Then the U.S. would have its bomb; but who knows what Germany might have had. We could have had a three-way cold war on our hands, instead of a two-way. Only I don’t think it would have ended quite as politely, with Hitler’s finger on one of the triggers.



  • it would be a cold war, excpet with germany, not the soviet union. perhaps communist china would have fought with facist germany



  • If you want to go all technicall with the spearmen thing then fine! The soldiers would be armed with enough ammo and supplies they would have already be ready for the spearmen and they would be entrenched. (Common sense considering their defending). Back in the days of spearmen they did not take in thought that threnching was good considering they had melee combat. Rendin the trenching useless.

    And about the Canadian army… I did not say we could take over the US, but i said that our military is better trained and not better armed. Our generals are some of the top geniouses in the world.(So is our population)Cough,Cough. The war of 1812 is the only war that the Americains lost in History! And whoever Canadian out their thank god for our new Prime Minister! R.I.P Jean Chretien.


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