• @Texas:

    @BJCard:

    Well, if the French want to attack Alsace then the combined German army could destroy whatever the French move there.  On the other hand, if they don’t attack it then all of the German western Army can be in Belgium turn 2 and it may be too much for the French to match and/or beat.

    Alsace borders Belgium though, so the entire western Army can still be in Belgium turn 2 and you don’t have to worry about the French flanking your army and pulling them away from Paris.

    Agreed about Belgium, but with this move I want France to move into Lorraine; then I can swing the German line south and destroy that part of the French army.  For me the game isn’t about taking and losing territories (yes, important, but…), but it is about destroying the armies.  If you can destroy a large portion of the French army because they are greedy, then Germany will lose less IPC-worth of units than France and the French territories will be easier to take.

    Maybe it won’t work against some players-  I have tried to split my forces along the western front before, but the French just end up attacking one of them and they lost less IPC value of units than Germany because they attacked en masse and with air supremacy.


  • Oh I am not advocating for you to attack multiple territories.  The move from Munich to Alsace is a defensive move to prevent France from advancing to the south.  The biggest mistake you can make with Germany is to attack too many territories.  Your opening is good in that regard.  I usually buy a battleship every turn with Germany, helps keep the British out of your hair, subs don’t have nearly the same effect.


  • That’s my point, I was goading the French into advancing in the south, where I could isolate a French army and kill it will little loss to my own. 
    I do like buying Battleships as Germany, but turn 1 your income isn’t stellar and 12 IPCs is a lot to put into the ocean, but I see the merits.


  • One of the things I really like is that for now, there is no obvious strategy. Some good ideas and suggestions, but stil lots of uncharted territory for both sides.

    One thing we’ve talked about (though not tried) is buying German subs, hitting the Canadian fleet while moving the home subs out to sea. If the UK moves out to hit them with her fleet, you have plenty of strength to hit them in open waters.

    The treat is to advance through the Atlantic, move your cruisers out and look for a surprise, Pearl Harbor style, strike on the US fleet, especially if she has built transports and no other naval support.

    Just an idea for now.

    Kim


  • What advantage do you see of forcing the revolution over taking Moscow.  If you are going to hit Moscow hard, why not just go for the victory city.  I can see forcing the revolution if your push to Moscow is taking too long, but I think it should be Plan B from the start if you are going to send forces east.


  • I have not played RR, as the rules did not seem finalised. We both thought this was better for the CPs as I got Moscow’s income. Now we are not so sure.
    The CPs who remained seemed stuck in no man’s land and I was unable to take the last three remaining territories and within two turns UK had landed claiming them. UK will now retake and reactivate Russia  and I will be facing a two front war again!
    Allied economy was staggering and CP’s income soon dipped below starting income and the writing was on the wall.
    Will try with RR next time.


  • Reactivate russia? Once RR has occured russia is Out of the game isnt it?


  • When I played I took out the British fleet in the North Sea on Germany’s first turn. Britain spent the next 4 rounds building a fleet big enough to match the German fleet that I had been

    stacking up in Kiel by 1 Battleship per turn. Russia had some damn lucky rolls in that it wiped out the German and Austro-Hungarian armies on the 2nd and 3rd rounds respectively and also had

    air superiority.


  • @Athlim:

    Reactivate russia? Once RR has occured russia is Out of the game isnt it?

    Hi Athlim. We decided to play without RR, the conventional A&A way.


  • Ok. I See ;)

  • Customizer

    The Allies should see Russia as a continual front; as the Russians are forced back and capitulate they are replaced by British units via Karelia and India. If they allow the CPs to wrap up the Eastern Front they’re playing like twonks.


  • The game setup does favor the Allies (mirroring real life), but the CP can definitely compete.  Germany, in particular, is really strong.  In the first game I played, the Central Powers won.  Here is the link to the game recap:

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=30705.0

    I think you are spending too much money on navy.  They are kind of a worthless purchase for the Axis in my opinion.  They can never hope to compete with the Allied navy, and if they did, it would mean not spending any money on the crucial ground units they need to threaten Moscow, Paris, and Rome.  Load up on infantry and artillery, buy a plane now and then (don’t go crazy - just make sure you have enough for air supremacy in the territories you plan to attack, so you can roll your artillery at 4), and then when tanks become available, start buying them as well especially if you’re Germany.

    Germany needs to keep a daunting supply line going along the coast from Poland to Belgium/Picardy, with plenty of artillery in each space to discourage / make more costly a British amphibeous assault.  Two fronts, threatening Paris and Moscow.  Austria-Hungary needs to come hard after Italy.  In the game I played, Austria-Hungary used a transport to take Tuscany on the first turn as well as Venice, putting immediate pressure on Italy.  They should also be sending troops to Russia.  (Don’t waste troops on Serbia - make only a nominal attack there as the game requires.)  Ottoman has at least a few turns to work with before the Brits really start coming for Constantinople.  Use that time to send troops to support Austria-Hungary against Russia.  Be aggressive, mobilize friendly troops, and pick up extra IPCs wherever you can (Germany in Africa, Austria-Hungary in Switzerland [a crucial first-turn pickup IMHO], and Ottoman in Bulgaria, etc.).  Try to get Russia in bad shape by the time the U.S. enters the war.  Ideally, you can take Moscow or at least force the Russian Revolution by turns 5/6 (RR happened in turn 6 in my game), then all your CP troops can be sent to the west.

    @BJCard:

    Is this game balanced?  Not as far as I can tell.  The CPs have a huge hurdle to cover- namely Paris.  After a few games that I’ve played Paris has never been seriously threatened- and the biggest obstacle has been supply lines from Berlin.  But this has been my most successful strategy:

    Austria (26 IPCs)
    Purchase:
    1 Fighter, 1 Submarine, 2 Inf, 2 Art
    Movement:
    Venice- Tyrolia and Trieste Armies (12 Inf, 4 Art) attack 6 Inf, 2 Art
    Serbia- 4 Inf, 2 Art from Budapest attack 3 Inf, 1 Art - Minimal attack on Serbia- no reason to get too many units stuck down there. 
    Romania- 8 Inf from Budapest and 6 Inf, 2 Art from Galicia (14 Inf, 2 Art) attack 5 Inf, 1 Art -The Army in Romania will be the Austrian contingent in Russia- All other purchases will go to Trieste, then into Italy. 
    Tyrolia- 6 Inf, 2 Art from Bohemia
    Trieste-10 Inf, 2 Art from Vienna
    Galicia-2 Inf from Vienna

    -The Austrian strategy is to move as much as possible to Rome as quickly as possible.  The purchased fighter will most likely ensure air supremacy in Italy. 
    -If Russia presses hard into Galicia, which I suppose they could, the Romanian Army along with purchased units in Vienna could hit the Russian stack. 
    -If Russia hits Romania hard, the idea is the Ottomans would come to help through Bulgaria. 
    -If the Allies activate Albania early, just bypass it.  It should not be enough to threaten Trieste.  If it attacks Serbia, then use portions of Trieste/Romania/Budapest forces to counter.  Use the minimum possible forces- it is better to contest a territory in the Balkans and have a few more Inf fighting in Russia and/or Italy.
    -Why buy a submarine?  Well, you are growing the Austrian navy and threatening the med at minimal cost.  with 26 IPCs to spend, more than 6 on navy seems counterproductive; and if you don’t spend it your Navy may be toast quickly.  ‘Fleet in being’ at its finest.  Perhaps in a couple turns with more IPCs rolling in you could opt to buy Battleships instead of Subs.

    Germany (35 IPCs)
    Purchase: 1 Submarine, 1 Fighter, 2 Artillery, 5 Infantry
    Movement:
    If Russia stacked Poland with 18+ Infantry and 6+ Artillery, then move Berlin Army (13 Inf, 3 art, 1 ftr), Hanover Army (6 Inf), Prussia Army (5 Inf, 3 Art) - leave 1 Inf in Prussia) to Silesia- to have 30 Infantry, 8 Art, 1 Ftr. 
    If Russia did not stack Poland, should attack Poland with Silesia and Prussia Armies (And Berlin Fighter).  The Hanover and Berlin Army move to Silesia for reinforcements.
    In either case, the starting Berlin, Hanover, Prussia, and Silesia Armies are the German contingent in Russia.
    Belgium- 7 Inf, 3 Art from Alsace, 7 Inf, 3 Art from Ruhr attack 3 Inf, 1 Art. 
    Alsace- 1 Inf from Munich
    Ruhr- 10 Inf, 3 Art from Munich, 3 Inf, 4 Art from Kiel.
    SZ 9- 1 BB, 2 Cruisers, 2 Submarines vs. 1 BB, 2 Cruisers, 1 Transport (Hopefully this goes well)
    SZ 2- 2 Submarines vs. 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport
    Africa- um, yeah- Run around a bit, try and survive, make the Allies attack at low odds if possible.

    -German strategy is to hit Russia as hard as possible early to force them into Revolution, and play defensive on the western front for as long as possible.
    -All new purchases are meant for Paris.  If necessary, a temporary retreat from Belgium to Ruhr is OK as long as you are making headway into Russia.
    -Buying a Submarine is an effort to slowly build up the Navy.  The longer the Navy survives (bring back survivors from SZ 9 back to SZ 10 turn 2), the more ships the allies have to buy and the less help the British can send to Russia (through the Baltic).  Cannot afford Battleships until you get a few territories in Russia, but recommend adding some in later rounds.

    Ottoman Empire (16 IPCs)
    Purchase: 2 Inf, 2 Art
    Movement:
    Bulgaria- 6 Inf, 2 Art from Constantinople (to activate the 5 Inf, 1 Art) - Ottoman Russian Contingent #1
    The rest of Ottoman moves depend on what Britain did, but generally:
    Play defensive against Britain; make them attack with low odds- you want them to spend money in India.
    Mesopotamia- 6 Inf, 1 Art from Ankara (to add to the 2 Inf, 1 Art) - Ottoman Russian Contingent #2 -or- If Britain attacked Persia, then it fights on this front (depending on how many troops are needed).
    Britain probably attacked Trans-Jordan, and there’s nothing you can do about it.  With luck it is still contested.  Doesn’t matter- you leave your Smyrna and Syrian Desert Armies in place.

    -Ottoman strategy is thus- supply two Armies to Russia and the rest is spent fighting Britain in India and/or Trans-Jordan.  The best outcome for the Ottoman Empire is to take a couple Russian territories and to threaten India and/or Africa so much that Britain is forced to spend a lot of IPCs down there- and not on the Western Front.

    What do you guys think?

  • Customizer

    Even if the Allies are stupid enough to allow this, how long will it take these CP units to get to the western front?

    Remember that the official new ruling on RR is that the Allies can take control of CP occupied Russian tts (rather than returning them to Russia). The British should be in a strong enough position in Persia/Mesopotamia and Karelia to ensure that the CPs can send no troops back west without losing all they’ve conquered in Russia.

    The Allies must play as a team, using their sea transport advantage to be exactly where the CPs don’t want them to be. If the Allies play as individuals looking after their own interests they will hand the game to the enemy.

    @kraftwrk_5:

    Try to get Russia in bad shape by the time the U.S. enters the war.  Ideally, you can take Moscow or at least force the Russian Revolution by turns 5/6 (RR happened in turn 6 in my game), then all your CP troops can be sent to the west.


  • The problem is, if you spend nothing on Navy as the CPs, the Allies can land anywhere by sea- including in Russia.  Even one submarine per turn by Germany and Austria will force at least Britain into building a BB per turn.  You aren’t trying to compete in the sea, just restricting movement of the Allies.  Typically the Allies cannot take out either the German or Austrian Navy on their own due to attacking separately and naval mines.  If Austria over time has a fleet that can threaten the Med, Britain will be forced to send ships there and buy more for the home fleet= less British ground forces in France and India.

    I don’t see the point of taking Tuscany as Austria since it would be taken back by Italy anyway- you can only land 2 troops there and Italy will surely consolidate their position there.

    With how fragile air power is in the game, you cannot have enough air power, France can easily buy a plane per turn for the first 3-4 turns and still have a defensive front waiting for Germany.

    The bonus of the Russian Revolution is it takes that theater out of the game, plus you do not have to send enough forces to take Moscow, just enough to contest it.  You have to take Paris either way, and if you are strong enough to get Paris, then Rome should not be too bad.

    The only friendly troops you can mobilize as the CPs are in Bulgaria.

    Lastly, for Flashman- if Britain is landing troops in Karelia and supplying Russia from India, what is keeping France afloat and the Ottoman Empire at bay?  Are the Ottomans not going for Egypt?

  • Customizer

    In my game the Ottomans eventually made it into Egypt - to be immediately crushed by the AEF.

    Britain is the key to the entire Allied effort.

    They should have:

    A fleet of 4 transports protected by warships, shucking 8 units to Karelia one turn, then returning to take 8 into Picardy/Belgium the next. Of course the emphasis of where you send the units depends on where the enemy is concentrating his efforts; but since you can move units from front to front much faster than him, you should always be a step or two ahead.
    Now, if there were two sea zones between 9 & 6 it would be a lot harder…

    A large Indian army pushing into Persia/Mesopotamia in enough force to engage the Ottoman’s main strength and move north into Sevastopol when needed. Send one infantry there as soon as possible so you can move there from a contested Mesopotamia. Don’t contest Livonia or Ukraine; the aim is to move there by attacking if Karelia and Sevastopol become “shared” after the revolution. If the CPs then move forces west you will quickly take back anything they have in Russia apart from those units uselessly trapped in shared tt.

    Units already in Africa should be enough to chase the Germans around, and if needed, block any Ottoman advance across the Sinai in time to allow the eastern fleet to send troops around to attack them.

    Look for opportunities to take tts in the Balkans by sea, and reinforce Rome if Italy looks like going under, at least until the Americans arrive to take over that duty.


  • How are the British affording 8 units per turn in Russia or France … and producing in India?  Are you buying all infantry?  Usually I have to purchase some kind of warship every turn as the British in my games.

  • Customizer

    Once you’ve replaced initial losses the fleet should be strong enough, assuming the French reinforce it. If the Germans want to fight a naval building race you need fewer men in the west.

    Infantry is sufficient in Karelia to begin with as the main aim is to defend here until the Revolution. Once turn 4 comes along tanks should be a big part of the purchase for the western front.

    Taking T-J, Arabia, Syria and Mesopotamia will give you a boost, but be willing to trade them. Harry the Germans out of Africa, taking over neutral colonies. By the time you’re retaking Russian areas your income should be pushing 50 IPCs.


  • @Flashman:

    Once you’ve replaced initial losses the fleet should be strong enough, assuming the French reinforce it. If the Germans want to fight a naval building race you need fewer men in the west.

    Infantry is sufficient in Karelia to begin with as the main aim is to defend here until the Revolution. Once turn 4 comes along tanks should be a big part of the purchase for the western front.

    Taking T-J, Arabia, Syria and Mesopotamia will give you a boost, but be willing to trade them. Harry the Germans out of Africa, taking over neutral colonies. By the time you’re retaking Russian areas your income should be pushing 50 IPCs.

    Sounds good and all, but I can’t say I’ve hit 50 IPCs with Britain.  The Ottomans always seem to be a pain.  That said I have only played a couple games so far so we will see how it goes.


  • Look at this way, why would the Allies allow the CP to build their navy?  If they are smart, they will destroy it by the 2nd turn.  They are much better positioned to maintain a strong navy, especially Britain and the U.S.  If I am the allies, I hope Austria-Hungary is wasting money on ships.  Then I can better protect Italy and France, and Russia can at least entertain the idea of making an offensive.

    Tuscany will be taken back by Italy, but you get immediate IPCs (and Italy loses immediate IPCs) and you immediately put pressure on them by being only one step from Rome.  Your troops in Venice can reinforce/counterattack next turn as appropriate.  It’s all about being aggressive and moving the front.  And don’t get me wrong, I like planes - but you only need one of them to move all your artillery up to 4s.  I found that attacking a territory with a number of artillery and infantry supported by one or two planes (since most allied territories won’t have even one or two planes) was plenty effective.  I built maybe one plane a turn for the first few turns, and sent them to different fronts until air supremacy was established in each.

    @BJCard:

    The problem is, if you spend nothing on Navy as the CPs, the Allies can land anywhere by sea- including in Russia.  Even one submarine per turn by Germany and Austria will force at least Britain into building a BB per turn.  You aren’t trying to compete in the sea, just restricting movement of the Allies.  Typically the Allies cannot take out either the German or Austrian Navy on their own due to attacking separately and naval mines.  If Austria over time has a fleet that can threaten the Med, Britain will be forced to send ships there and buy more for the home fleet= less British ground forces in France and India.

    I don’t see the point of taking Tuscany as Austria since it would be taken back by Italy anyway- you can only land 2 troops there and Italy will surely consolidate their position there.

    With how fragile air power is in the game, you cannot have enough air power, France can easily buy a plane per turn for the first 3-4 turns and still have a defensive front waiting for Germany.

    The bonus of the Russian Revolution is it takes that theater out of the game, plus you do not have to send enough forces to take Moscow, just enough to contest it.  You have to take Paris either way, and if you are strong enough to get Paris, then Rome should not be too bad.

    The only friendly troops you can mobilize as the CPs are in Bulgaria.

    Lastly, for Flashman- if Britain is landing troops in Karelia and supplying Russia from India, what is keeping France afloat and the Ottoman Empire at bay?  Are the Ottomans not going for Egypt? Â


  • Ah, well there’s the difference.  We are playing with different Russian Revolution rules.  Those have gone through several iterations.  The current rule two weeks ago when I started playing was that the CP had to maintain at least one infantry in any contested territories and could move out other units.  No other units, allied or CP, could be moved into Russian territory that were not already there.  Russian units were removed from the board outside original territories.  Allied units had one turn to get out of Russia or they were also removed from the board.  There is no such restriction for the CP.  (And why would there be, since they caused the revolution?)  It looks to me like your interpretation of the rules strongly favor the Allies.

    Assuming the rules are as I’ve stated above (whether official or “house rules”), I don’t think it’s unreasonable for the CP to expect to be threatening Moscow by turn 5 or 6.  Good axis players will be hammering Russia from Germany, Austria-Hungary, and the Ottoman.  Ottoman can shut down Sevestapool as happened in my game.  Although you correctly pointed out earlier that Britain can keep reinforcing Karelia, if the U.S. is not in the war yet or just entering at the end of turn 4, what will be the cost to France if Britain is focused on saving Russia?  Despite Britain’s economic strength in this game, that just seems like a really tall order.

    @Flashman:

    Even if the Allies are stupid enough to allow this, how long will it take these CP units to get to the western front?

    Remember that the official new ruling on RR is that the Allies can take control of CP occupied Russian tts (rather than returning them to Russia). The British should be in a strong enough position in Persia/Mesopotamia and Karelia to ensure that the CPs can send no troops back west without losing all they’ve conquered in Russia.

    The Allies must play as a team, using their sea transport advantage to be exactly where the CPs don’t want them to be. If the Allies play as individuals looking after their own interests they will hand the game to the enemy.

    @kraftwrk_5:

    Try to get Russia in bad shape by the time the U.S. enters the war.  Ideally, you can take Moscow or at least force the Russian Revolution by turns 5/6 (RR happened in turn 6 in my game), then all your CP troops can be sent to the west.

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