Yeah France first is super rough.
Why isn't France a Central Power?
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I’m just impressed he didn’t mention the Note for a change! =D
Really?! How far are you going to go to prove a point? :|
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You see, the reason IL loves the time period so much is because he loves to really dig in for his arguments. In my mind, he is merrily humming along as he constructs an intricate series of interlocking metaphorical trenches.
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Warning: Excellent post above!
But seriously, France did have a chance to join Germany if a number of events went differently….about 1 billion events.
But nevertheless their is still a chance and as long as that exists we must explore it for the good of the game.
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@Imperious:
Warning: Excellent post above!
But seriously, France did have a chance to join Germany if a number of events went differently….about 1 billion events.
But nevertheless their is still a chance and as long as that exists we must explore it for the good of the game.
This is just sad, even for you IL. As much as you may not like it, When war loomed large in 1914 Italy was part of the Central Alliance, and when war finally broke out, Luigi Cadorna was preparing and mobilizing the Italian army to fight France. While I agree with Italy being an Allied power for game purposes, I concede that from a purely historical perspective, Italy could have been swayed one way or the other.
In all honesty Italy wen to the highest bidder, which happened to be Great Britain and while it is difficult to think of a country that could have offered Italy more, that doesn’t mean Germany couldn’t have. (again this is from a historical perspective, not a gaming one).
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This is not about this “Italy” thing. The thread is about France and Germany hooking up, Not Italy.
It was called the Triple Alliance, not the Central Alliance. And it was purely defensive. The signatories were bound to protect themselves from outside attack. But obviously, they also protected against attacking each other. It was an ‘alliance of fear’ due to the fact that off and on over the last 100 years, Prussia and Italy were fighting Austria and parts of the Confederation and or Germany. This fighting sapped the power of the older kingdom Austria-Hungary and Italy viewed this weakness with further national ambitions.
The Alliance was borne out of convenience, like Hitler and Stalin years latter. Alliances are often used for other purposes and for other means.
“This was because the Italian government had grown convinced that support of Austria (the traditional enemy of Italy during the 19th century Risorgimento) would not gain Italy the territories she wanted: Trieste, Istria, Zara and Dalmatia, all Austrian possessions. In fact, a secret agreement signed with France in 1902 practically nullified Italy’s membership in the Triple Alliance.”
Now then, this is not for this thread.
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can say Germany took Paris off the bat and then the French would surrender all their army to France and bam 1914 Vichy France. Then to make sides more even, we shall add Japanese Forces coming through the Atlantic to balance this out
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The troll is strong with this one. I am amussed and thus give my permission for this to continue.
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@Imperious:
The only barriers preventing this might be the Franco- Prussian War of 1870, Alsace Lorraine, Germany and France being mortal enemies, and general animosity dating back since Napoleonic days
And the First Moroccan Crisis of 1905, which saw a partial mobilization of the French and German armies. And the Second Moroccan Crisis of 1911.
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Didn’t Mexico cause the USA to enter the war with the Zimmerman Letter? :-D
Aren’t they a member of the Central Powers too?
or could they have switched also?
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And what about Japan?
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And the First Moroccan Crisis of 1905, which saw a partial mobilization of the French and German armies. And the Second Moroccan Crisis of 1911.
Yes these are correct as well. But literally, you can count all the reasons with like 50 fingers, but this alone gives it a mathematical chance of being possible and that’s what we are arguing for.
Didn’t Mexico cause the USA to enter the war with the Zimmerman Letter? grin
Aren’t they a member of the Central Powers too?
Everybody went to war over Zimmerman. He was that popular. The goal is when every nation joins the Central powers, the war across of “ocean” can begin.
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It’s NOT!!! Damn I know I need to pay more attention to the Rules :-D
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All I know from the history professors of this site is that the only nation which could never ever have been a member of the CPs in 1914 was actually a member of the CPs in 1914.
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“This was because the Italian government had grown convinced that support of Austria (the traditional enemy of Italy during the 19th century Risorgimento) would not gain Italy the territories she wanted: Trieste, Istria, Zara and Dalmatia, all Austrian possessions. In fact, a secret agreement signed with France in 1902 practically nullified Italy’s membership in the Triple Alliance.”
All I know from the history professors of this site is that the only nation which could never ever have been a member of the CPs in 1914 was actually not a member of the CPs in 1915.
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@Imperious:
“This was because the Italian government had grown convinced that support of Austria (the traditional enemy of Italy during the 19th century Risorgimento) would not gain Italy the territories she wanted: Trieste, Istria, Zara and Dalmatia, all Austrian possessions. In fact, a secret agreement signed with France in 1902 practically nullified Italy’s membership in the Triple Alliance.”
All I know from the history professors of this site is that the only nation which could never ever have been a member of the CPs in 1914 was actually not a member of the CPs in 1915.
I think you should discuss that on the Axis&Allies1915 Board.
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I think you should discuss that on the Axis&Allies1915 Board
That’s Great!! :-D
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I think France and Germany are naturall allies. The slaves are the traditionale enemy. They fought together against Russia in 1812, and they joined NATO togheter to fight Russia again during the Cold War. I think France got offended in 1870, and that startet 80 years with bad relations, but it should not been that way neccessaryli if things turned out different.
Italy can not be trusted. Italy never ends a war at the same side it startet it, and if they do its because they switched side twice during the war. Italy made backstabbing an art. In any wargame, Italy should always start as a neutral, and join the highest bidder.
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Not true- Italy ruled Europe for hundreds of years back in Roman days- it just wasn’t called Italy back then. Italy cannot be trusted in the last 100 years, yup- agreed.
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Nobody trusted Venice in the Middle Ages either. They were always trading and allying with every bodies enamies.
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Oh wait. This is about France not Italy :-D
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