DK's Strategic Bombing Rules - submitted for your review

@Der:

By jove I think I have it!

Picturing the battle, the bombers would be flying with an interceptor shield around them, so you are right - some of the interceptors should hit escorts. To simplify it: 1/2 may hit escorts, 1/2 may get through to hit bombers.

Therefore:

1. Attacking bombers and escorts all roll @ 1. (casualties all return fire)

2. Interceptors roll @ 2

**All ones destroy bombers first as priority, then escorts

All twos destroy escorts first as priority, then force bombers home**
So….

A bomber and an escort dogfight with three int:

• Roll 2 dice for attackers - a “1” is rolled - defender loses a fighter.

• The three fighters fire back - and get two “2’s” - attacker loses the escort. Since there are no other escorts, the bomber is forced home by the other “2”.

This adjustment makes the interceptors twice as effective as the attackers - as they should be over home soil, but softens them a bit by spreading their hits over both plane types and by sending 1/2 the bombers back home where they can attack another day. �

That’s work but it is still a StrB grinder vs OOB Global.
A different situation 2StrB+2 Fgt /3 Int Fgt.
Rolls: “3” “3” “1” “4” � � � vs “2” “2” “3”

A) Global 1940: only @1 count so Defender loose 1Fgt / still 1 SB on IC.
B) Dk revised: only @2 for Def Fgt : Def loose 1 Fgt/ Att loose 2Fgt.
D) BM version 2: StrB get 2 hits Def loose 1 Fgt / Att loose 2 Fgt.

So at first B and D are similar but change the two “2” for “1”
Rolls: “3” “3” “1” “4” � � � vs “1” “1” “3”

A) Attacker loose 2 Fgt.
B) Attacker loose 2 StrB No SB on IC
D) Attacker whether loose 1StrB but get 1 SB on IC/ or No SB but 2 damaged StrB can turn back home.

I make some thoughts simulation of scenarii.
The less aircraft the more A B and D have similar effect. The more aircraft the more A B and D diverge and get their essential traits.
A) Escorting Fgt killers � (1/6vs Fgt first for each interceptors)
B) StrB & Fgt killers (1/6 vs Fgt&StrB for each Interceptors)
C) Mainly Fgt killer but can tgt StrB (1/6 vs Fgt, 1/6x1/6=1/36 vs StrB for each Interceptors.)

Thus DK’s SBR rules revised works but “1s” are still fearsome for the attacker.
That why introducing StrB with 2 hits reduced somewhat this effect of the terrible “1”.
To be clear I’m not trying to convince you that mine D are better than your B.
Your tread with “2” forcing StrB to turn back opens a wide number of thinking outside the box. :-)
The StrB get two hit was a way to adjust your idea with A&A system and the nearer rule was about the 2 hits BB.
This is not a final point, I think their is still many fine tuning to reach a SBR rule that will promote a lot more aircrafts battle than actually.

I have a new version of SBR rule, I call it F because E was � :
@BJCard:

What about during the bombing raid- the only thing that actually kills units is AA fire? � What if the interceptors getting a ‘hit’ causes a bomber to turn back (could still be subject to AA fire); and an escort ‘hit’ causes a negation of the interceptor ‘hit.’? �
Every air unit represents hundreds of aircraft- I for one would strategic bomb more often if it were only AA fire I had to get through- � interceptors would cause the bombing run to be aborted (If they get a ‘hit’).

Maybe this isn’t historical, but dang aircraft are so expensive in this game, more than 25% of most countries’ income. � I rarely see strategic bombing raids as it is because everyone is afraid of the ‘1’ being rolled in AA fire. � If one side is doing Strategic bombing, likely they are already winning the game as it is (because they can afford a bomber loss).

Version F:
Apply only for the SBR battle, not any ground combat.
StrB 2A@1 can take 1 hit before being destroyed.
TacB A3 can take 1 hit before being destroyed.
Fgt A3 can take 1 hit before being destroyed.
Fgt Def 4 can take 1 hit before being destroyed.

_The airbattle lasts for 2 rounds.

Any aircraft can retreat after first round.
On second round all hits must be allocated, no retreat allowed._

After this 2 rounds,
any attacking StrB survivors (even damaged) can proceed toward AAA and IC. Only undamaged TcB can proceed and attacks AB & NB.

I prefer to allow each StrB Att2@1 to simulate the Flying Fortress MGs.
And gives a better defense against the interceptors when alone just to be able to get one Fgt down.

Attacker and defender allocate hits as they want, except for this one rule:
The attacker, after allocating a hit to an undamaged fighter, must allocate a hit to a StrB  or a TacB or a damaged Fgt. This obligation is reset for each round. Thus, even if the last hit of the first round was allocated to an undamaged Fgt, the attacker can allocate a first hit on an undamaged Fgt on the second round.
This rule is a way to integrate “Bomber are ennemy’s priority target”.

Example 1: 1 StrB vs 2 Fgt
Rolls: � “2” “2” � � � � � � � “6” “4”
Result: 1 StrB damaged.
Before 2nd round: StrB can retreat.
Because, on the other round the StrB can be destroyed if any 1 Fgt hits.

Example 2: 2 StrB vs 2 Fgt
Rolls: � � “1” “2” "1"“2” � � “2” “4”
Result: � 2 StrB damaged / 2 Fgt damaged
2nd rolls: “1” “3” � � “2” "3 � � � � � � � � � � � � “4” “5”
Result: 1 StrB down 1StrB can SB IC / � 1 Fgt destroyed � 1Fgt damaged

The second round lets every player a chance to retreat before getting too much damage on his or her aircrafts.

Do you think this SBR rules could generate more SBR because it let more calculated risks for both attacker or defense?

That’s what I hope.

Version F:
Apply only for the SBR battle, not any ground combat.

TacB A3 can take 1 hit before being destroyed.
Fgt A3 Def4 can take 1 hit before being destroyed.

I know somebody would prefer a more historical accuracy for TacB:
TacB Att2, if the case, add paired with Fgt give 1@4 to this Fgt.
It’s Ok for me, I chose TacB A3 because it is the OOB 1940 attacking value.
It was for simplicity.

@toblerone77:

Just my humble opinion but SBR has gone out of control, improperly moddded, and just plain stupid in every game since classic. The point was to stop production and destroy resources. The further the distance the the more danger bombers had to face. i’m going to work on this……

I feel here melancholy for the “old time classics”… :wink:

But there is truth in what you said.
Thus, if we like aircrafts battles over UK and Germany and keep the odds as the classics every thing over the AAA IC should get inside a 1/6 chance to hit each bombers, every thing else is more dangerous than the basic rules about SBR. Worth thinking about it.
Thanks for your comments: back to basic, yah!!!

@Baron: I like the simplicity of the classic SBR rules, and I think there’s room for some type of interception. I don’t want to derail the topic by going into my version of IPC and production theory however. I think there’s a better way and I like some these ideas getting kicked around.

@toblerone77:

@Baron: I like the simplicity of the classic SBR rules, and I think there’s room for some type of interception. I don’t want to derail the topic by going into my version of IPC and production theory however. I think there’s a better way and I like some these ideas getting kicked around.

Please let us know.

I’m actually working on a way to balance dangerous “1” against bomber and a way to give room for interception and escort.

For now what do you think of this?

To promote more aircrafts battle let’s up to 2 fighters escorts on 1 SBR and making another 1 combat mission with 1 or 2 of the surviving Fgt of this SBR.

Reason: I think many players are reluctant to engage 1 Bomber on SBR as soon as their is one Fgt on a IC territory because they need fighters elsewhere. Results: far less more SBR and no aircraft battle.

There is almost always something better to do with air units than engage in Strategic Bombing, so if you raise the amount of aircraft lost in Strategic Bombing, you are going to have even less of it.

@BJCard:

There is almost always something better to do with air units than engage in Strategic Bombing, so if you raise the amount of aircraft lost in Strategic Bombing, you are going to have even less of it.

You may be right. However I think SBR (as well as commerce raiding) really should play a better role in any WWII game.

@BJCard:

There is almost always something better to do with air units than engage in Strategic Bombing, so if you raise the amount of aircraft lost in Strategic Bombing, you are going to have even less of it.

That’s the point.
The idea is to engage Fgt in SBR and more usefull battle.
Normally, not all Fgt in SBR should be lost, � maybe 1 from 1 side or the other, because “1” and “2” and a single round is not made to obliterate all aircrafts in a SBR.

The attacking player gain the advantage of using twice his Fgt instead of a single escort round with no benefit or impact (even negative ones because these Fgt were needed elsewhere) as long as the defender keep his Fgts grounded.

I think it should be a kind of calculated risk for both side like:
“If I engage Fgt escort, it will not become a waste of usefull units because the other side put no interceptors.”
The defender should pay somehow for not protecting is IC from StrB.
The other way, the attacker should pay for letting StrB unprotected against interceptors.

If you want more SBR and aircraft battle you should have some “gain” in it with some risk also but not too overwhelming odds.
So everyone would see an advantage in playing it or real penalty in not doing it.

If not, you got 2 situations: a) regular SBR on unprotected IC, or b) no SBR at all if any Fgt is in the territory.

The game has units and opportunity to simulate something that happen often in WWII (SBR and aerial combat) but the rules give no interest or strategic advantage in doing it, so nobody wants to play it. That is very understandable.

The simplest way is to give up and say: keep it simple: no escort, no interceptor only 1 IC AAA against each bomber.

But I think together we can find other interesting ways to play SBR.

Well, my point wasn’t to ‘give up,’ but to either:

A) make Strategic bombing less risky by not losing planes but by making them abort the bombing run

B) make bombing runs more deadly.  Like- instead of repairing IC at the beginning of your turn and then being able to build there at the end, perhaps the IC only gets repaired at the end of the turn and if your major had 8 damage, you can only build two units there this turn.  (Maybe you can always build at least one unit).  This would certainly get more bombing runs and more interceptor/escorts involved.

Germany rarely gets strategic bombed (Have not seen it much).
UK gets bombed once in a while in London, but rarely hurts because they are building in the Middle East/South Africa/Canada.
Russia gets bombed sometimes- but rarely in Leningrad or Ukraine because the Germans would just have to repair them when they take them.
If Japan is getting bombed then they are already losing the game.

@BJCard:

Well, my point wasn’t to ‘give up,’ but to either:

A) make Strategic bombing less risky by not losing planes but by making them abort the bombing run

B) **make bombing runs more deadly.**� � Like- instead of repairing IC at the beginning of your turn and then being able to build there at the end, perhaps the IC only gets repaired at the end of the turn and if your major had 8 damage, you can only build two units there this turn.� � (Maybe you can always build at least one unit).� � This would certainly get more bombing runs and more interceptor/escorts involved.

Germany rarely gets strategic bombed (Have not seen it much).
UK gets bombed once in a while in London, but rarely hurts because they are building in the Middle East/South Africa/Canada.
Russia gets bombed sometimes- but rarely in Leningrad or Ukraine because the Germans would just have to repair them when they take them.
If Japan is getting bombed then they are already losing the game.

I think that is one of the breakthrough of this tread:

“make Strategic bombing less risky by not losing planes but by making them abort the bombing run.”

Germany rarely gets strategic bombed (Have not seen it much).

Maybe it’s depend if playing 1940 or other version 1942.2. (I played 1942 and it is the more frequent type of SBR).

make bombing runs more Deadly

I think we can also play on this factor: increase or decrease damage according to the situation.
Example: StrB alone make more damage (1D6+2) vs regular 1D6
StrB + escort vs interceptor: regular damage 1D6
Even damaged StrB could still bomb IC, maybe 1D3 (1D6/2).

The objective is to create a real motive in doing SBR and interception.

@Der:

After learning some more about the math I’ve come to the conclusion that the best SB rules are in the latest edition.Â

From AA1940 SE:
1. All attacking  planes fire @1
2. All defending planes fire @1
Remove casualties. Bombers proceed to take aa fire.

That’s it.

The “bomber turned back” idea, although interesting, violates the rest of the rules of unit interaction. I just don’t see how to make it better.

Once a bomber faces one interceptor @1 and then one aa gun @1, he’s already has a 1/3 chance of being shot down, right? That’s double the worst losses ever historically! You can’t reduce the odds either, due to the limits of the D6 dice.

This situation at 1/3 to being shot down is in worst case: StrB with no escort Fgt.
That’s why the OOB 1940 SBR rules destroy Fgts escort first. To reduces this high rates of casuality in StrB ranks.

The “bomber turned back” idea, although interesting, violates the rest of the rules of unit interaction.

Retreat for the attacker is in A&A system rules.
Instead of “must turn back” “must retreat or can retreat”

Here is my proposal D revised:

How to make a strategic bombing raid:

1. Announce how many bombers you are bringing to bomb your enemy’s factory.

2. Interceptors: If your enemy has fighters stationed in the territory, these fighters can try to intercept you. In this case you may need to bring escort fighters along with your bombers to help see them through.

This battle lasts only one round.

1. All incoming escorts and bombers fire according to this scale,
and all casualties get to return fire before being eliminated  :

Jet fighter A@2 & D@3
Fgt Interceptor @2
Bombers (StrB and TcB) @1
**Fighter escort @1 +1 if paired with 1 TcB or Fgt. *****
So 1 pair of Fgts: 1@2 and the other 1@1.

2. All interceptors then fire against the incoming planes:

When interceptors rolls “2” they hit the escorting fighters first, then the StrB or TacB.
When interceptors rolls “1” they hit the bombers (TcB and StrB) first, then fighters.

StrBomber in SBR only, can take a hit before being destroy.
But if it receives this hit, the StrB can still do bombing
(Damage 1940: 1D6 / Damage 1942.1&.2: 1D6/2= 1D3).
Damaged StrB are repaired at the end of turn like BB in 1942.1&.2

After the airbattle round, any StrB can retreat without submitting to AAA fire.

3. All casualties, both sides, are removed. Surviving escorts and interceptors withdraw.

4. Surviving bombers will face AAA Fire from the defending territory’s IC.

StrB (and TcB going against NB and AB) must endure AAA fire before bombing IC (or NB & AB) as usual.

AAA fires 2 dices against each StrB and only one against TacB.
For each “1” it gets a hit against this specific aircraft.

**If it is a TacB, then it is destroy,

if it is an undamaged StrB, then it became damaged but cannot make any bombing drop on IC (or NB & AB),

if this undamaged StrB receives 2 hits (rolls of “1” “1”), then it is destroyed.

if it is a StrB already damaged by interceptors, then it is destroyed.**

Thus any StrB not hit by AAA can bomb the IC:
undamaged at        1D6+2 (1940) or 1D6 (1942)
damaged by aircraft 1D6 (1940) or 1D3 (1942)

Ex.: So 3 StrB can endure 3 hits without being destroy and they can bomb IC (at reduce damage).
In the same situation another player can decide to destroy 1 StrB, and proceed with one undamaged Bomber to attack the IC and keep another damaged bomber (yet to decide to retreat or not).
In case of a mixed group of StrB and TcB, it is the attacking player as usual which decides casualty: destroying a TcB or taking a hit on a StrB.

5. BOMBING DAMAGE:
Finally, keep the damage on IC and NB, AB as 1D6+2 for a StrB and 1D6 for TcB.

But to promote more airbattle with interceptors, when a SBR  or TcB get a free ride without interceptors, the bombing damage get fiercer:
2D6 keep the better one and add +2. (As if it was a heavy bomber).
If playing 1942.1/1942.2, this could be 1D6+2 (instead of OOB 1D6) for the more accurate bombing.
For Tactical Bomber this could be 1D6+2.
I’m sure defending players will allocate more interceptors to prevent this.

6. The total is the amount of damage done to the Industrial Complex.

StrB now still can be destroy even behind a screen of escort Fgts.

However, StrB get better chance to survive than in the previous “Bomber are priority target rule”.

So this precious unit is not on a suicidal runs and if they past the AAA can still deliver what 1940 OOB rules say: 1D6+2.

In the case you SBR with more than 1 StrB you now have a tactical decision to make when interceptors got more than 1 hit on your Bombers. In 1940, you may even choose between a TcB or a StrB.

*** I modified the escorting Fgt with 1@2/2 Fgts to get the exact ratio of number divided by 2 for aircraft against ground target:
Fgt Def4/2=2 Fgt A3/2=1.5   TcB and StrB are still inferiors in dogfight with their @1.

This rules are quite similar to navy battle including BB so it respects the A&A system rules and are not too complex.

It does not contradict history in the way that even when the StrB were priority target, the Fgts doesn’t have the choice to engage the escort screen and sometimes destroy the escort Fgt instead of the bomber.

About the second hit for StrB, don’t forget that it is a whole flight of maybe 100 bombers and not only 1 plane. So many can be crippled, delayed, lost fuel, lost their way, etc. so they weren’t able to reach their target and have to get back home. Thus a damaged StrB unit, can have repair the older ones, and add some new Bombers to reach their operational number.

I was looking for a middle way to reduce the odds of loosing too many bombers if compare to OOB Global 1940 rule for escort that was realy protecting StrB behind escort Fgts.

What do you think of this new version?

Addition: actually under this HR, the defensive factor for interceptor is doubled from @1 to @2 (vs OOB Global 1940) to keep the balance for Tactical Bombers during SBR against Air Base or Naval Base, I suggest this conditionnal rule: if an air raid is performed solely by Tactical Bombers without any escorting fighter, then intercepting fighters defend @1 and their is still only one AA roll @1 against every single TacB.

The main change I made in the later version is about AAA.
A StrB need two hits @1 to get down. So it means 1 /36 instead of 1 chance out 6 as before.

However, inspire by the “turn back” effect, I add the no bombing of IC when hit by AAA, thus getting a “1” with 2 dices give odds at 10/36. It is a bit higher than 6/36 (1/6) of the usual AAA.

The net result is:
the defender is slightly more protected from IPCs loose due to SBR,
and attacker is less subject to loose precious StrB due to lucky “1”.
This rule create some kind of a draw between them: no IPCs loose and no StrB lost.

Also a SBR without interception can still be more damaging.
But a SBR without escort can be risky because every Fgt @2, this raise odds to be hit @ 1/3 instead of keeping it low @ 1/6. However, after this first round of aircombat, the attacker has the option of retreat if he doesn’t want to risk damaged StrB against 10/36 odds to hit them.

@BJCARD
Some of your ideas inspire me this:

If 1 escort (or 1 TacB) and 1 interceptor are both hit, we can introduce this special rule:
both hits are negate for attacker and defender so neither fighters  (or TacB) are destroyed.  Priority is to destroy Strategical Bombers. There is still a minimum of 1 casuality from either side whether Fighter or Bomber (StratB or TacB).

In this way, it minimizes the dramatic effect of attrition on precious units so for each SBR the loss are reduce on each sides, for examples:
we suppose that there was at least one StrB hit:
2 Fgts lost                vs 1 Int lost becomes      1 Fgt escort lost vs 0 Fgt Int.
1 TacB and 1 Fgt lost vs 1 Int lost becomes      1 TacB lost vs 0 Fgt Int.
1 TacB lost                vs 1 Int lost becomes    0 TacB lost vs 0 Fgt Int.

Of course, if attacker looses 2 Fgts and defender none, their is no trade off.

Baron, I like the last version you just posted.

Especially the punishment for defender not scrambling interceptors- 2D6 Damage!

And the ability for bombers to turn back if the air battle went foul.

Thanks!

@BJCard:

Baron, I like the last version you just posted.Â

Especially the punishment for defender not scrambling interceptors- 2D6 Damage!

And the ability for bombers to turn back if the air battle went foul.Â

Thanks!

I’m glad to hear it!  :-D
Just to be sure, I intented  2DKeep1D6+2 for a SBR without interception.
Would you  prefer a real 2D6 of damage to IC, to make a must of interception for defender ?

Well, either way could work.  with a 2D6 though- Interception is a must.