Had an idea I’ve been kicking around for years but never tried and may give some suggestion to the topic. Day or night bombing. If you bomb during the day your SBR is more effective at night less effective but less risk to attackers. Now that we have tac bombers we have potential night fighters too. Before I probably would use regular bombers or adapt them for editions with no tac bombers. Additonally we have some units i.e. HBG which would do nicely also.
You have probably a different idea, but this is a start.
If I try to integrate Night Bombing in the latter D proposition, here some possibility for a tactical choice by the attacker:
Damage to IC resulting from bombing:
Day Bombing vs Night Bombing
Interceptors? No / yes / from Damaged StrB vs No / yes / from Damaged StrB
1940 ed. (2D6Keep1D)+2 / 1D6+2 / 1D6 vs 1D6/ 1D3+1 / 1D2
1942 ed. 1D6+2 / 1D6 / 1D3 vs 1D3+1/ 1D3 / 1D2
Night StrB: their is no escort. Only StrB 1Att@1.
For SBR only, StrB must take 2 hits to get down.
Night interception: could be possible for half Fgt, rounding up, present on the IC territory. Reason: not all pilots are trained for night missions.
So if only 1 Fgt is present then 1 interceptor.
If 2 Fgts then only 1 Fgt can intercept the StrB, 3 Fgts then 2 Fgts, 4 then 2, etc.
Because of the night, Fgt Def@1.
[Addition: another option is to only keep this single rule and allow any number of fighters on interception: [i]Because of the night, Fgt interceptor Def@1.]
AAA still throw 2 dices for each StrB, any “1” hit the StrB and makes the Bombing get no effect on IC.
If the StrB was already damaged, then it is destroyed.
If the StrB was undamaged, then it can return home and be repaired.
If the StrB was undamaged but received 2 rolls @“1” from AAA, then it is destroyed.
The advantage is when attacker as two or more StrB, their will be very few interceptors against them and they only get 1 shot@1.
So the risk to be destroyed is around 1/36.
It is still a high 10/36 to block the bombing of the IC.
I don’t I have any idea for TacB against NB and AB.
Any suggestion?
Here is my proposal new simplified E version inspired by 1942.2 SBR:
How to make a strategic bombing raid:
1. Announce how many bombers you are bringing to bomb your enemy’s factory.
2. Interceptors: If your enemy has fighters stationed in the territory, these fighters can try to intercept you. In this case you may need to bring escort fighters along with your bombers to help see them through.
This battle lasts only one round.
1. All incoming escorts fire first (first strike), then remove interceptor casualties.
After, bombers fire according to this scale, and all other casualties from TcB or StB get to return fire before being eliminated :
Jet fighter A@2 & D@3
Fgt Interceptor @2 As in 1942.2 SBR.
Fighter escort @1 First strike. As in 1942.2 SBR.
Tactical bomber @1 As in 1940.2 TacBR.
Strategical bomber @0, but can take 2 hits in SBR air combat
[[s]b]Optionnal: StrB get only 1@1 regardless of number of StB
Optionnal: strategical bomber @1 up to 1/StB or 1/Fg interceptor, which ever is less.
Basically, each StB works like 1 single AA shot @1.
You cannot have more shot than the number of StB or Fg. So the max is 1 shot per Fg.
2. All interceptors fire against the incoming planes:
StrBomber in the 1 rnd air combat of an SBR, can take a hit before being destroyed.
But if it receives this hit, the StrB cannot do any damage on IC
Any damaged StrB are destroyed at the end of this SBRaid
After the air combat round, any damaged StrB can still be submit to AAA fire and be taken as casualties.
3. All casualties from bombers and interceptors are removed. Surviving escorts and interceptors withdraw.
4. Surviving bombers will face AAA fire from the defending territory’s IC.
StrB (and TcB going against NB and AB) must endure AAA fire before bombing IC (or NB & AB) as usual.
AAA fires 1 dice against each StrB and TacB.
For each “1” it gets a hit and owner’s choose casualties.
If it is a TcB, then it is destroy,
if it is an undamaged StB, then it is also destroyed.
As said above, any damaged StB cannot make any bombing drop on IC (or NB & AB), but can be taken as casualty instead of any other StB or TcB.
Thus any undamaged StB not hit by AAA can bomb the IC:
at 1D6+2 (1940) or 1D6 (1942)
Ex.:
3 StBs can endure 2 hits from interceptors on the same StB without destroying the other two StB and both can bomb IC.
If there was two escorting fighters, the attacking player have to choose between destroying
a) 2 Fgs,
b) destroying 1 Fg and damaging 1 StB or
c)destroying 1 StB.
During the AAA phase, any “1” rolled destroy a StB but let’s suppose AAA got 1 hit:
net result for…
a) 2 StB can bombard IC, lost 2 Fgs and 1 StB
b) 2 StB can bombard IC, lost 1 Fg and 1 StB
c) 1 StB can bombard IC, lost 2 StBs.
Let’s suppose there was no hit from IC’s AA:
a) 3 StB bombard IC, lost 2 Fgs
b) 2 StB can bombard IC, lost 1 Fg and 1 StB
c) 2 StB can bombard IC, lost no Fg and 1 StB
Do you see the challenge of the attacker when choosing hits during the aircombat phase?
5. BOMBING DAMAGE:
Finally, keep the damage on IC and NB, AB as 1D6+2 for a StrB and 1D6 for TcB.
But to promote more airbattle with interceptors, when a SBR or TcB get a free ride without interceptors, the bombing damage get fiercer:
2D6 keep the better one and add +2. (As if it was a heavy bomber).
If playing 1942.1/1942.2, this could be 1D6+2 (instead of OOB 1D6) for the more accurate bombing.
For Tactical Bomber this could be 1D6+2.
I’m sure defending players will allocate more interceptors to prevent this.
6. The total is the amount of damage done to the Industrial Complex.
StrB still can be destroy even behind a screen of escort Fgts.
I was looking for a middle way to reduce the odds of loosing too many bombers if compare to OOB Global 1940 rule for escort that was really protecting StrB behind escort Fgts.
What do you think of this version of SBR?
Why would fighters escorting get first strike? If anything interceptors would get first strike.
Why would bombers not shoot? Bombers were armed to the teeth.
Why is this better than OOB?
I dont think its better than OOB…Its more ahistorical and more complicated at the same time. And it actually makes SBR stronger, which is the opposite of what we need.
For G40, giving interceptors rolls @2 is mitigation enough to SBR. (42.2 OOB rules) And simple. And more historical.
:wink:
Here is how I see the problem, I share the same view as Der Kuenstler:
@Der:
After learning some more about the math I’ve come to the conclusion that the best SB rules are in the latest edition.Â
From AA1940 SE:
1. All attacking planes fire @1
2. All defending planes fire @1
Remove casualties. Bombers proceed to take aa fire.That’s it.
The “bomber turned back” idea, although interesting, violates the rest of the rules of unit interaction. I just don’t see how to make it better.
Once a bomber faces one interceptor @1 and then one aa gun @1, he’s already has a 1/3 chance of being shot down, right? That’s double the worst losses ever historically! You can’t reduce the odds either, due to the limits of the D6 dice.
I don’t like the SBR of Global 1940, too much uniformity between all aircrafts.
I prefer the 1942.2, I found more historical :
In 1942.2 both Fg and StB get first strike @1 to counter the better effectiveness of defender @2.
Sometimes, defenders are caught off gard but once in the air, have the advantage.
At least, defending fighter are better than StB.
In SBR in general, the defender have the choice to intercept or not. (And many times, the presence alone of 1 or 2 Fg is enough to rebuke the SBR strategy.)
But the attacker can choose the IC target and how many planes will attack, and usually aim at the least defended (that’s why I think interceptor need @2).
But…
If the SBR is far more dangerous than 1/6 as was a regular classic AAA you obtain far less SBR.
So instead of promoting it, raising interceptor @2 will increase the risk, on 1:1 basis, to 2/6 + 1/6= 50%
Who will risk any StB on a SBR?
I think a good SBR need more balance (first) than historical accuracy (second).
By proposing a StB that can take 2 hits, but useless after the first hit for anything else except taking another hit, it is a way to lower the risk inside a more acceptable range.
But every defender hit still have an impact.
All bombers loose their first strike @1, but TcB keep reg @1 and StB @0 can take more punishment and all the defending interceptors can keep @2.
The main goal here is a balance SBR with a lesser risk to loose many attacking aircrafts.
StB are @0 to eliminate any StB spam strategy.
I let the option of 1@1 for all attacking StB (regardless of their number) to let them have at least a small offensive factor vs plane.
For night bombing, I suggest no interceptor and no escort, only the classic SBR vs AA @1 but bombing damage will be halfed.
your ‘risk’ factors do not include escorts.
you also forget that it only takes a single strategic bomber to disable a facility.
either way i will always night bomb when there are fighters, unless i have enough escorts.
i do not like that rule at all, it will be abused. i can safely spam bombers now without worry of enemy fighters.
with G40 or 1942.2 interceptor rules an opponent can counter my bombers with fighters always.
nightbombing is more for a tactical game anyhow? why cant we do nighttime amphib assualts that nullify airbase scrambles?
i think i just misread the rulebook, and i do like the 1942.2 rules.
i dont like 2 hit bombers that dont shoot, its confusing, ahistorical and goes against A&A rules.
strategic bombers were loaded to the teeth with air to air weapons, and would fly in such a formation with their escorts to maximize damage to enemy interceptors
@Uncrustable:
your ‘risk’ factors do not include escorts.
you also forget that it only takes a single strategic bomber to disable a facility.either way i will always night bomb when there are fighters, unless i have enough escorts.
i do not like that rule at all, it will be abused. i can safely spam bombers now without worry of enemy fighters.with G40 or 1942.2 interceptor rules an opponent can counter my bombers with fighters always.
nightbombing is more for a tactical game anyhow? why cant we do nighttime amphib assualts that nullify airbase scrambles?
Ok, I’m convinced this nightbombing is not good at all. Too much problems.i think i just misread the rulebook, and i do like the 1942.2 rules.
i dont like 2 hit bombers that dont shoot, its confusing, ahistorical and goes against A&A rules.
strategic bombers were loaded to the teeth with air to air weapons, and would fly in such a formation with their escorts to maximize damage to enemy interceptors
For the StB problem:
I could say that, since I give them an increase capacity to take damage, I would not let them having a regular attack factor.
We are at a strategical level, and the unescorted US bomber in day raid, even loaded to the teeth were easy target and not very much able to take down the Luftwaffe’s interceptors.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgoxv7_bombardiers-en-danger-1-2_tech
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgoxey_bombardiers-en-danger-2-2_tech
Mainly 4th minute to 7th minute in the second part.
So I choose to use the 1942.1 SBR rule which give all StB A0 (+Escort A1 and interceptors D2).
So this part, is still include in A&A.
In my games, I will probably allow the optional rule I wrote: only 1A1 regular for all the StB, regardless of the number.
I keep the A1 First Strike of Fighter escort. 1942.2 SBR rule
I keep the D2 from the defending interceptor. 1942.1 &1942.2 SBR rules
The big “2 hits” StB is the main difference and is what allow the attacking player to somehow reduce the destructive effect of D2 intercepting fighters but without causing the “no effect result” as the “2 hits” battleship taking 1 casualty allows.
This novelty have a double-edge which let the attacker an interesting choice when choosing casualty:
Wether A) destroying an escort fighter to preserve StB from being hit (and allowing SBR on IC), or
B) saving this 10 IPCs unit but forbidding any further bombing attack for the StB taking the hit.
Knowing that if there is no hit from IC’s AA, this will not change anything and the StB still be considered destroyed after the AA fire (12 IPC’s lost, instead of 10 IPCs lost and an additionnal IC’s bombing roll),
but if any AA strike a hit, then you can still preserve other StB doing the Bombing of the IC (only 12 IPCs lost instead of 24 IPCs).
Note: if all AA rolls get “1”, all StB will be taken down, no matter what.
So sometimes StB will be choose as casualties by the attacker, but the damage suffered from engaging in a SBR (vs big “2” interceptors) can sometimes be reduced, even when flying without escort.
In that way, I hope introduce an incentive for attacker to do risky SBR in games even when there is 1 Fg or even more in the IC territory which can be targeted.
Because, all that I have see is: every time their is a SBR, there is no Fg on the IC.
So the Escort and Interceptor OOB rule has only one effect:
forbidding attacker of considering SBR as a viable and economical strategical option.
Instead of promoting it, it virtually eliminated it.
This version is much simpler than my last previous SBR HR, in which it requires 2 roll of “1” to destroy an StB, and is less in favor of the attacker, because everytime a unit is hit, it will not return home (but sometimes can take an additional hit, saving another plane in the same occasion).
So the Escort and Interceptor OOB rule has only one effect:
forbidding attacker of considering SBR as a viable and economical strategical option.Instead of promoting it, it virtually eliminated it.
Not quite sure what your saying here.
Definitely don’t want to eliminate SBR as viable option. Seems a bit overboard there.
@Uncrustable:
So the Escort and Interceptor OOB rule has only one effect:
forbidding attacker of considering SBR as a viable and economical strategical option.Instead of promoting it, it virtually eliminated it.
Not quite sure what your saying here.
Definitely don’t want to eliminate SBR as viable option. Seems a bit overboard there.
What I meant is that Escort and Interceptor rules have a strong side effect of not being incentive to make a SBR whenever an IC has at least 1 Fg on it. They bombard elsewhere, if they can, or simply do regular combat with their aircrafts units, and be far more destructive taking less risk for their aircrafts, in addition.
So, instead of promoting aircombat, it does the other way.
To promote SBR IMHO, it must be near 1/6 odds of being shot down per unit, not too much over. If not, all other uses of StB will be far more efficient (attacking ships or air support ground unit).
The AAA against each bomber is already a cold shower, but must be kept for balance.
SBR with escort and interceptor need incentive to compete vs other fruitful tactics.
Hence, my suggestion:
1- bonus damage when no interceptor, and
2- a kind of “better resistance to damage” for StBomber, but not as much as BB.
By giving an additional hit to attacking StB in aircombat, it can also be seen as a way to thin out defender’s airfleet. (Because the defender have a good reason to intercepts (Fg D2) and if the defender’s don’t show, he has to pay a higher price: 1D6+2/StB in 1942.2 and, for G1940, 1D6+2 but throw 2 Dices and keep the better.)
Actually, it is all I can think about to create an incentive to attack IC with fighters on it. And for defender’s to protect IC with fighters, making interception a must.
I would like to see more air combat. :-)
I think you should play some games of G40 on here before making these assumptions.
I do, and I see many SBR involving fighters.
Germany sometimes will send 5 or more bombers on Moscow alone, where Moscow has 2-3 fighters to scramble. Odds are better that Russia will lose a fighter before Germany loses a bomber in the air combat. And Il trade a German bomber for a Russian fighter, Russia can’t afford it.
I also see many games where G2 Germany sends 2 bombers 2-4 tac bombers and 2-4 fighters to London where there are sometimes up to 5 fighters that can scramble.
Italy will also heroically send its lone bomber to London in an attempt to disable the airbase on London before Germany’s turn.
Even with interceptors SBR is a touch too powerful in G40.
This is mainly because bombers are getting +2, meaning 1 bomber auto disables bases and minor facilities once past AA and interceptors.
I would propose taking away bombers +2, while halving tacbombers damage.
Bombers SBR at 1D6
Tacbombers SBR at 1D6 /2. Rounded up.
@Uncrustable:
I think you should play some games of G40 on here before making these assumptions.
I do, and I see many SBR involving fighters.
Germany sometimes will send 5 or more bombers on Moscow alone, where Moscow has 2-3 fighters to scramble. Odds are better that Russia will lose a fighter before Germany loses a bomber in the air combat. And Il trade a German bomber for a Russian fighter, Russia can’t afford it.
I also see many games where G2 Germany sends 2 bombers 2-4 tac bombers and 2-4 fighters to London where there are sometimes up to 5 fighters that can scramble.
Italy will also heroically send its lone bomber to London in an attempt to disable the airbase on London before Germany’s turn.Even with interceptors SBR is a touch too powerful in G40.
This is mainly because bombers are getting +2, meaning 1 bomber auto disables bases and minor facilities once past AA and interceptors.I would propose taking away bombers +2, while halving tacbombers damage.
Bombers SBR at 1D6
Tacbombers SBR at 1D6 /2. Rounded up.
Now I better see why you wanted to give defending interceptor D2 instead of D1.
Attacker have the advantage of picking which units will go SBR and to concentrate firepower on a single IC.
The defenders are overwhelmed by the sheer number.
In addition, on defense you have often more than just only 1 IC to protect, and you cannot keep all the Fgs in the same territory, have to split them usually.
D2 interceptors can counterweight the advantage of attacker and hindrance of defense a bit.
Reducing attacking bombers to only 1@1 for the whole group is also a way to preserved the defending fighters against destruction by a large number of StBs. But we both know, that is not A&A standard rules, each unit usually get 1 roll…
…unless you treat StBs/TcBs the same way as AAA!!!. :-o
So each defending Fgs can never have more rolled against them than 1A@1, if there is at least the same number of StB/TcBs vs Fgs.
It can be rationalized to get an historical accuracy somehow in the way:
intercepting fighters are not able to attack all groups of StBs/TcBs flying over the territory but only one unit (flight group) at a time.
When interceptors fly around StBs they are under an intense and concentrated AA fire coming from the flying fortress. But all others group of StBs are not chasing actively Interceptors, they are just flying toward the IC/AB/NB target.
So if interceptors are overwhelmed by the StBs/TcBs, it will be in essence 1:1 combat.
1 TcBs A1 vs 1 Fg D2, all other additionnal StBs/TcBs cannot shoot anymore.
In fact, all intercepting Fgs are already busy, other StBs/TcBs have pure and simple an open road toward IC or NB/AB.
What do you think of this one?
When StBs/TcBs attack fighters on SBR air combat, they get A@1 for each StB/TcB or intercepting Fgs wichever is less.
Escorting fighter attack as usual, 1 unit get 1 roll.
Based on 1942.2, I will keep @1 First Strike
Based on G40 rule, if Interceptor has D1, then A1.
(I really wonder why I haven’t think about it, even back in the old thread about StB spam strategy. :?)
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31373.0
