DK's Strategic Bombing Rules - submitted for your review

  • '16 '15 '14 Customizer

    I decided to do some research on this. Axis and Allies Strategic Bombing rules (including Alpha 2) have been published eight times over 14 the years since AA Europe and have changed all eight times! It seems no one can decide what to do with them.

    Here’s my attempt to make a sensible set of rules based off the last 14 years of rules:

    • How to make a strategic bombing raid:
    1. Announce how many bombers you are bringing to bomb your enemy’s factory. 
    2. Interceptors: If your enemy has fighters stationed in the territory, these fighters can try to intercept you. In this case you may need to bring escort fighters along with your bombers to help see them through.

    This battle lasts only one round:

    1. All incoming escorts and bombers fire @ 1 against the interceptors. (Casualties get to
    return fire before being eliminated.)

    2. All interceptors then fire at against the incoming planes, with bombers taking priority.
    (Escorts can only take hits after all bombers have been hit.) Any one’s rolled destroys a
    bomber. Any two’s rolled forces a bomber to turn back. Any two or less destroys an
    interceptor if all bombers have already been hit.

    3. All casualties, both sides, are removed. Surviving escorts and interceptors withdraw.

    4. Surviving bombers will face any AA Fire from the defending territory. For every “1”
    tossed, a bomber is shot down and eliminated from play with no chance to counterattack.

    5. BOMBING DAMAGE: If the bombers met interceptors earlier, roll one die for every
    bomber that survived the AA attack. If there were no interceptors, Roll one die and add 2
    for every bomber that survived the AA attack. (representing more accuracy)

    6. The total is the amount of damage done to the Industrial Complex.

    Please leave your input and blunt criticism…. :lol:

  • '14

    I like these rules!  My only critique would be interceptors roll a 1 to destroy a bomber and a 2 for an escort.  If no escorts then a 2 would hit a bomber.  Or if no escorts a 2 would make a bomber return.  Just another idea.  I like the extra accuracy rule!!

  • '17 '16

    @Der:

    I decided to do some research on this. Axis and Allies Strategic Bombing rules (including Alpha 2) have been published eight times over 14 the years since AA Europe and have changed all eight times! It seems no one can decide what to do with them.

    Here’s my attempt to make a sensible set of rules based off the last 14 years of rules:

    • How to make a strategic bombing raid:
    1. Announce how many bombers you are bringing to bomb your enemy’s factory.� �
    2. Interceptors: If your enemy has fighters stationed in the territory, these fighters can try to intercept you. In this case you may need to bring escort fighters along with your bombers to help see them through.� �

    This battle lasts only one round:

    1. All incoming escorts and bombers fire @ 1 against the interceptors. (Casualties get to
    return fire before being eliminated.)

    2. All interceptors then fire at against the incoming planes, with bombers taking priority.
    (Escorts can only take hits after all bombers have been hit.) Any one’s rolled destroys a
    bomber. Any two’s rolled forces a bomber to turn back. Any two or less destroys an
    interceptor if all bombers have already been hit.
    � �
    3. All casualties, both sides, are removed. Surviving escorts and interceptors withdraw.

    4. Surviving bombers will face any AA Fire from the defending territory. For every “1”
    tossed, a bomber is shot down and eliminated from play with no chance to counterattack.

    5. BOMBING DAMAGE: If the bombers met interceptors earlier, roll one die for every
    bomber that survived the AA attack. If there were no interceptors, Roll one die and add 2
    for every bomber that survived the AA attack. (representing more accuracy)
    � �
    6. The total is the amount of damage done to the Industrial Complex.

    Please leave your input and blunt criticism…. :lol:� � � � � � � � �

    First: I found it very interresting and challenging.
    I would like to know those 8 different rules.
    For sure, I know of 1942.1, 1942.2 and 1940 and they are all different.

    Your post makes me think about the difference between OOB rules, yours and mine (the other post on SBR below).
    I would recall it later just for comparison.
    But the more interresting is that your post inspire me an other different way to play it.

    However, my first critique will be the same wich I received from BJCard:

    @BJCard:

    In this strategic level game air units are representing hundreds of aircraft, and they cost a lot of IPCs. � If we make them too vulnerable in a strategic bombing raid then there would be less of them (How many strategic bombing do you see? � The only ones I see are German/Italian bombs over London or Moscow- never the western allies because it is too easy for Germany to have 5+ fighters in West Germany to intercept).

    The main reason is here:

    All interceptors then fire at against the incoming planes, with bombers taking priority.
    (Escorts can only take hits after all bombers have been hit.) Any one’s rolled destroys a
    bomber. Any two’s rolled forces a bomber to turn back.

    By this Bomber priority target rule, it seems to me that it will forbid many if not all SBR as long as there is any one fighter near an IC. Instead of promoting aircrafts only battles it will obliterate it for psychological (fear of loosing precious Bombers) and tactical (odds) reasons.

    However, I’m very fond of your post, I hope it will open a discussion on this topic.
    Very soon, I will expose what I have in mind about a slightly different SBR and escort rules from yours.


  • If bombers are taken as casualties before escorts then there is no point in even having a ‘worthless’ escort.

    And honestly this would eliminate any SBR where there could be interceptors scrambled.

    Absurd rule. Escorts should be able to protect and sacrifice themselves to protect the bombers that is the whole point ffs.

    I also think it absurd that strategic bombers have the same attack defense value in the air as do fighters/interceptors.

    Should be: Strategic bombers attack/defend at 1 in the air…Tac bombers at a 2 and fighters at 3.

    Trying to be a little real lol

  • '16 '15 '14 Customizer

    The Bomber priority rule idea was in the Alpha +2 rules, and I think it is sound. Certainly the intercepting squadrons were instructed to go for the bombers first, don’t you think?

    This was removed from the Alpha +3 rules - probably because too many bombers were lost. That is why I put in "rolling a ‘2’ makes a bomber turn back. You don’t lose as many bombers but you also don’t get to do the damage with them. Seems to me a good comromise.

    @Uncrustable:

    If bombers are taken as casualties before escorts then there is no point in even having a ‘worthless’ escort.

    The point is the escorts will be firing at the interceptors @1.

    @Uncrustable:

    And honestly this would eliminate any SBR where there could be interceptors scrambled…

    If you figure the odds, even four interceptors will only roll a one half the time. (52%) How many players can afford to keep four interceptors tied up at every IC?

    @Uncrustable:

    Absurd rule. Escorts should be able to protect and sacrifice themselves to protect the bombers that is the whole point ffs…

    How are the escorts sacrificing themselves when the interceptor’s mission is to shoot down bombers? The escorts are hunting the interceptors, who are hunting the bombers. Maybe an adjustment could be: the interceptors hit by the esorts in the opening fire sequence are immediately removed with no chance to fire - this was also in Alpha 2.

    @Uncrustable:

    I also think it absurd that strategic bombers have the same attack defense value in the air as do fighters/interceptors

    Should be: Strategic bombers attack/defend at 1 in the air…Tac bombers at a 2 and fighters at 3.

    Trying to be a little real lol…

    Ever wonder why a B-17 was called a flying fortress? They were blistering with MGs and flew so that their defensive fire interlocked. And why are you trying to put Tac bombers up there? Freaking stukas doing escort duty? And fighters firing @ 3? You’d knock down half of what was in the sky, over enemy soil. It is the interceptors that should have the advantage, with the escorts often having to fly at the limit of their fuel supply in foreign territory.

    @Tigerman77:

    I like these rules! � My only critique would be interceptors roll a 1 to destroy a bomber and a 2 for an escort.

    Again, why are interceptors even aiming at escorts if they’ve been ordered to stop bombers?

    @Baron:

    By this Bomber priority target rule, it seems to me that it will forbid many if not all SBR as long as there is any one fighter near an IC. Instead of promoting aircrafts only battles it will obliterate it for psychological (fear of loosing precious Bombers) and tactical (odds) reasons.

    Say 2 bombers are sent to SB an IC with one fighter. 1/6 times the fighter will get a bomber, as normal. The other bomber damages the IC. Or 1/6 times the fighter will force a bomber back home. the other bomber damages the IC. I don’t see the big fear thing.

    @Baron:

    However, I’m very fond of your post, I hope it will open a discussion on this topic. Very soon, I will expose what I have in mind about a slightly different SBR and escort rules from yours.

    I’m very interested!


  • Tac bombers can raid naval and air bases

  • '16 '15 '14 Customizer

    @Uncrustable:

    Tac bombers can raid naval and air bases

    Yes - but only in the larger global editions that use tac bombers. I was hoping for a set of general SB rules that would cover all the games.

  • '17 '16

    I like this tread. 🙂

    Here is my proposal:
    All the stages are similar as the original post.

    Jet fighter A@2 & D@3
    Fgt Interceptor @2
    Bombers (StrB and TcB) @1
    **Fighter escort @1 +1 if paired with 1 TcB or Fgt. *****
    So 1 pair of Fgts: 1@2 and the other 1@1.

    When interceptors rolls “2” they hit the escorting fighters.
    When interceptors rolls “1” they hit the bombers (TcB and StrB).

    The novelty is here to discuss:
    Give StrBomber in SBR only, can take a hit before being destroy.
    But if receive this hit, the StrB can not do bombing and must turn back home.
    Damaged StrB are repaired at the end of turn like BB in 1942.1&.2

    Ex.: So 3 StrB can endure 3 hits without being destroy but they can not bomb IC.
    In the same situation another player can decide to destroy 1 StrB, and proceed with one Bomber to attack the IC and keep the other damaged bomber, which can do no arm to the defender.
    In case of a mixed group of StrB and TcB, it is the attacking player as usual which decides casualty: destroying a TcB or taking a hit on a StrB forcing it to turn back home.

    Finally, keep the damage on IC and NB,AB as 1D6+2 for a StrB and 1D6 for TcB.
    But to promote more airbattle with interceptors, when a SBR get a free ride without interceptors:
    the bombing damage get fiercer: 2D6 keep the better and add +2. (As it was a heavy bomber).
    If playing 1942.1 or .2, this could be 1D6+2 (instead of OOB 1D6) for the more accurate bombing.
    I’m sure defending players will allocate more interceptors to prevent this.

    When their is only one interceptor maybe the rule can be:
    Roll “1” destroy a StrB / roll “2” damage a StrB.
    Otherwise, if there is more than 1 Fgt, the interceptors roll a hit on “1” or “2” but it takes 2 hits to destroy a StrB.
    I hope that it will increase the number of SBR in a game.

    StrB now still can be destroy even behind a screen of escort Fgts.

    However, StrB get better chance to survive than in the previous “Bomber are priority target rule”.

    So this precious unit is not on a suicidal runs and if they past the AAA can still deliver what 1940 OOB rules say: 1D6+2.

    In the case you SBR with more than 1 StrB you now have a tactical decision to make when interceptors got more than 1 hit on your Bombers. In 1940, you may even choose between a TcB or a StrB.

    *** I modified the escorting Fgt with 1@2/2 Fgts to get the exact proportion of number /2 for aircraft against ground target:
    Fgt Def4/2=2 Fgt A3/2=1.5 � TcB and StrB are still inferior in dogfight with their @1.

    This rules are quite similar to navy battle including BB so it respects the A&A system rules and are not too complex.

    It does not contradict history in the way that even when the StrB were priority target, the Fgts doesn’t have the choice to engage the escort screen and sometimes destroy the escort Fgt instead of the bomber.

    About the second hit for StrB, don’t forget that it is a whole flight of maybe 100 bombers and not only 1 plane. So many can be crippled, delayed, lost fuel, lost their way, etc. so they weren’t able to reach their target and have to get back home. Thus a damaged StrB unit, can have repair the older ones, and add some new Bombers to reach their operational number.

    I was looking for a middle way to reduce the odds of loosing too many bombers if compare to OOB Global 1940 rule for escort that was realy protecting StrB behind escort Fgts. The rules below was another way to make possible attack against those units but it is far more complex than the one developped here.

    What do you think?

  • '17 '16

    The last rules about roll “1” target Bombers / roll “2” target Fgts escorting is much more simple than what I developped earlier on a different tread, feel free to compare and comments:

    @Baron:

    After reading more comments on SBR and Air Supremacy,
    I will add that this way of allocating hits can be used against StratB during SBR.

    Also, instead of giving every aircraft att or def@1, I suggest now:
    Strat and TacB Att1 Def1 against other aircrafts.
    Fighter (escort or interceptor) att@1 /def@1 (single) but when paired with either 1 other fighter or 1 TacB gained att@2 /def@2 for this fighter only.

    Example:
    during a SBR: 4 planes: 1StratB+2TacB+1Fgt = SB Att 1@1+TB Att2@1+Fgt Att 1@2
    defending interceptors: 5 Fgt = 2 Fgt: 2Def@2 + 3 Fgt 3Def@1
    When allocating rolls and hits: an escort screen is trying to protect the main aircrafts from being targetted, the fighter@2 are allocated to other fighter before any other aircraft.

    The 1st and 2nd D@2 goes against Fighter / the 3rd and 4th D@1 against the two TcB/
    the 5th D@1 against Bomber/
    A 6th  would be allocated against the Fgt
    a 7th allocated target would have been then (for the 2nd time) one of the TcB.

    So even if StrBomber and TacBomber are protected in priority, after getting two rolls against them, the fighter escort is nontheless doing is job.
    The defender still have a real chance to destroy bigger target but once per plane in most case, unless attackers are very outnumbered.

    In case of a double hit against the same target,
    I suggest now to put the “hit” on the next other kind of aircraft if possible:

    1st hit: StrB, then 2nd hit get down a Fighter, (if none then a TacB)
    1st hit: TacB, then 2nd hit get down a StrB, (if none then a Fighter)
    1st hit Fighter, then 2nd hit get down a TacB, and if there is none then at last a StratBomber.

    So it is possible to destroy the Strategic Bomber even if their is only one hit, so this contradict the rule about SBR and escort from Global 1940 that say defender always allocates hit.
    In this case, surely the defending player would discard the fighter, but this house rule say if the rolls that score the hit was already allocate to the bomber then it is.

    About the aircombat phase preceeding the first cycle of a naval combat I rather prefer now this option:

    Instead let’s give the defending player the choice to send even his only aircraft (and all his aircrafts).

    I rewrite the initial post:

    I’m wondering about a way to add some flavor to naval combat in the Pacific (for 1942.1, 1942.2 or even Global versions).

    Before every naval combat, allow 1 round of air combat between attacking and defending aircrafts.

    All Fighters, Tac bombers and Strat Bombers attack and defend @1.
    However, 1 fighter paired with a TacB or another fighter get Att/Def@2.

    Each roll are allocated separately on a one on one basis except for fighter escort which block two aircrafts then letting one go on other target.
    Bomber are always the most protected target. TacB are second.
    If one side outnumbers the other, then one aircraft is targetted twice (or three times for a fighter), then a second and so forth.

    In this way, 1) each individual fighter can be targetted three times before  2) a TacB being a double target, then 3) Strat Bomber at last.

    Fighter @2 are allocated first to the fighters then TacB, and last to the Strat Bomber.

    Example 1
    1 Strat Bomber and 1 fighter attack 4 fighters.
    Thus, two fighters defend @2, and two defend @1.
    The first two @2 are allocated to the escorting fighter.
    The third one @1 is allocated to the Bomber.
    The fourth one @1 is allocated to the fighter.

    If their was only 2 defending fighters, the Bomber couldn’t be hit.

    Example 2
    5 fighters attack against 1 TacB and 1fighter.
    2 fighters @2 and 3 fighters @1.
    The TacB is @1, the fighter @2.
    The fighter is targetted three times 2@2, 1@1 and two times for the TacB 2@1 .
    If their was only 4 fighters the TacB would only be the target of 1@1.

    If two aircrafts targeting the same enemy aircraft get both a hit, the additionnal hit is pass to another target following the order of protection (Fgt toward TacB toward StrB toward Fgt), so no “1” is lost.

    Example 3
    8 fighters against 1 TacB and 2 fgts.
    4@2&4@1 vs 2@1&1@2.
    The two Fgt are targeted three times (2@2+1@1) each and 2@1 for TacB.
    If only 2 rolls out of 8 get “1” and fall on the same Fgt, then the second hit is allocated to the TacB, not the second Fgt.

    So, this rules will make possible to shot Strat and Tac Bomber even behind a screened of escort fighters even during a Strategic Bombing Raid. And at the same time, bombers are still screened by their escorting fighters if they outnumbered the opponent. Thus making less likely to lose those bombers instead of fighters.

    All attacking aircrafts must be part of this unique round of air combat before a naval battle occur.

    The defending player get some choice to determine the number of defending aircraft:

    If there is only 1 fighter (or TacB) on a carrier, then their is no aircombat (the aircraft is considered patrolling near the other naval units).
    The naval battle is as usual.
    If there is 2 fighters (or TacB) on a carrier, then 1 fighter is sent away against incoming attacking aircraft(s).

    If he had 3 or more fighters, the defender can sent 1 or more aircrafts but should keep 1 aircraft in reserve near the naval units. (So the defender always keep 1 aircraft that will fights normally (at @4 or @3) screened by cheaper unit or a BB that absorbs 1 hit.)

    In the 1940 version, if the sea-zone is near an airbase, the defender can scramble up to 3 fighters (no TacB) against the attacking aircrafts.

    This first round of battle before the regular naval combat occurs, is it unbalanced in favor of the Axis in 1942 (and about 1940)?

    Does the defender choice too limited?
    Instead let’s give the defending player the choice to send even his only aircraft (and all his aircrafts)?

    Is it a real way to simulate the Pacific battles and enhanced battle during SBR or just a sophisticated rule with no benefits?

    What do you think of all this?

  • '16 '15 '14 Customizer

    Sorry but it seems very complicated to me - you lost me about halfway down the page….simplicity is one of the main traits of this game.

  • '17 '16

    @Der:

    Sorry but it seems very complicated to me - you lost me about halfway down the page….simplicity is one of the main traits of this game.

    The last post about what I tried to develop before you start your tread is not so important. 😉

    I tried to develop a fair rule which assign a singular target to every single interceptor. So even bombers can be targetted not just Fgts escorting. All the rest is technicallity… So I have the same intention as you in your initial post.

    A) Global 1940 OOB SBR rules are almost no Bomber casuality and all Fgt destroyer when escorted.
    For example: 3 interceptors against 2 Bombers & 2 Fgts escort mean all rolls to take down the Fgt first.
    So 2 rolls “1” means 2 Fgts down and “2” for nothing. Rest: 2 SBR on IC and 0 Fgt.

    B) Your SBR was far more Bomber destroyers and no Fgt even escorted: all escorts get a chance to hit a Bomber on a roll of 1 or 2.
    Example : 3 interceptors against 2 Bombers & 2 Fgts escort mean all rolls to take down the StrB first.
    So 2 rolls at “1” means 2 StrB down and the “2” for 1 Fgt down. Rest: No SBR on IC and 1 Fgt.

    C) My initial SBR rule revised was allowing almost to 1, seldom 2, chance to hit a Bomber during SBR but still remains an escorting Fgt destroyer as OOB 1940.
    For example: 3 interceptors against 2 Bombers & 2 Fgt escort mean no roll to take down the 2 Bombers unless one of the 2 Fgts was hit twice.
    So 2 lucky rolls “1” and 1 at “2” means � 2 Fgt down and the last “2” can be a hit, if it was the case, then 1 StrB is down because of 2 hits cannot be allocated on the same Fgt so it pass to a StrB.
    Even if the “2” was a miss, if the same Fgt was hit twice then, it is 1Fgt and 1 StrB down.
    Rest: 1 SBR on IC and 0 Fgt worse scenario / 2 SBR on IC and 0 Fgt best scenario / 1SBR and 1 Fgt middle scenario.

    D) Now, the new one SBR rule based on your ideas give all interceptors 1 chance/D6 to hit a Bomber on roll of 1 but it is not automatic destruction on a roll of “1”. It gives a second chance to the Bomber. It can be hit twice before being destroyed. And even though give some other tactical options to the attacking player doing the SBR.

    For example: 3 interceptors against 2 Fgts escorting 2 Bombers mean 3 rolls to take down Bombers or Fgt.
    So 2 lucky rolls “1” and a “2” means 1 StrB down and 1 Fgt down / or 2 StrB damaged going home and 1 Fgt down.
    Rest: 1 SBR on IC and 1 Fgt  / or No SBR and 1 Fgt but still have 2 StrB for next turn.

    It means option D is less a killer but can still negate a SBR on a IC and destroy StrB or Fgt.

    In this manner, the D option is more dangerous to bomber than A & C but not as much than option B.

    The D version is simpler for allocating the hits (“1” for Bombers / “2” for Fgts).
    It is more respectful of the attacking and defending value than
    A OOB1940 (all @1) and
    B (only interceptor@2) or
    C (Fgt1@2/2 Fgt, others @1)
    when compared to standards in normal combat situation: Fgt A3D4 or TcB A3D3 and StrB A4D1.

    It is the other post (version D) that I want your comments because it is base on your ideas:

    Here is my proposal:
    All the stages are similar as the original post.

    Jet fighter A@2 & D@3
    Fgt Interceptor @2
    Bombers (StrB and TcB) @1
    Fighter escort @1 +1 if paired with 1 TcB or Fgt. ***
    So 1 pair of Fgts: 1@2 and the other 1@1.

    When interceptors rolls “2” they hit the escorting fighters.
    When interceptors rolls “1” they hit the bombers (TcB and StrB).

    The novelty is here to discuss:
    Give StrBomber in SBR only, can take a hit before being destroy.
    But if receive this hit, the StrB can not do bombing and must turn back home.
    Damaged StrB are repaired at the end of turn like BB in 1942.1&.2
    Ex.: So 3 StrB can endure 3 hits without being destroy but they can not bomb IC.
    In the same situation another player can decide to destroy 1 StrB, and proceed with one Bomber to attack the IC and keep the other damaged bomber, which can do no arm to the defender.
    In case of a mixed group of StrB and TcB, it is the attacking player as usual which decides casualty: destroying a TcB or taking a hit on a StrB forcing it to turn back home.

    Finally, keep the damage on IC and NB,AB as 1D6+2 for a StrB and 1D6 for TcB.
    But to promote more airbattle with interceptors, when a SBR get a free ride without interceptors:
    the bombing damage get fiercer: 2D6 keep the better and add +2. (As it was a heavy bomber).
    If playing 1942.1 or .2, this could be 1D6+2 (instead of OOB 1D6) for the more accurate bombing.
    I’m sure defending players will allocate more interceptors to prevent this.

    When their is only one interceptor � � maybe the rule can be:
    Roll “1” destroy a StrB / roll “2” damage a StrB.
    Otherwise, if there is more than 1 Fgt, the interceptors roll a hit on “1” or “2” but it takes 2 hits to destroy a StrB.

  • '16 '15 '14 Customizer

    OK we’re talking apples and oranges a little bit because my house rule doesn’t really account for tac bombers as I don’t play the global games.

    I think the “pay for bombers repair” idea is good and matches the BB repair well.

    I like your first rules fine. The only thing is the number of variables in them make them hard to learn: “if one intercetor comes” “if two interceptors come” might make it too hard to keep track of without a chart posted or something as to what to do.


  • What about during the bombing raid- the only thing that actually kills units is AA fire?  What if the interceptors getting a ‘hit’ causes a bomber to turn back (could still be subject to AA fire); and an escort ‘hit’ causes a negation of the interceptor ‘hit.’?

    Every air unit represents hundreds of aircraft- I for one would strategic bomb more often if it were only AA fire I had to get through-  interceptors would cause the bombing run to be aborted (If they get a ‘hit’).

    Maybe this isn’t historical, but dang aircraft are so expensive in this game, more than 25% of most countries’ income.  I rarely see strategic bombing raids as it is because everyone is afraid of the ‘1’ being rolled in AA fire.  If one side is doing Strategic bombing, likely they are already winning the game as it is (because they can afford a bomber loss).

  • '17 '16

    @Der:

    OK we’re talking apples and oranges a little bit because my house rule doesn’t really account for tac bombers as I don’t play the global games.

    I think the “pay for bombers repair” idea is good and matches the BB repair well.

    I like your first rules fine. The only thing is the number of variables in them make them hard to learn: "if one intercetor comes" “if two interceptors come” might make it too hard to keep track of without a chart posted or something as to what to do.� � � �

    I add this rule to allow a single Fighter interceptor to be able to get down a StrB.
    Otherwise the StrB may be hit but will never be destroy. A kind of no risk situation for the attacker.
    Just to forbid this I introduce: “2” means damage StrB and “1” mean StrB destroy.
    All other situation are as the regular rule: 2 Fgts intercepting 1 StrB must hit twice (on “1” or “2”) to destroy the StrB.
    Devil is in details!!!
    Single Fgt interceptor rule amendments:
    1 StrB@1 + 1 Fgt@1 vs 1 Fgt interceptor@2.
    If it hits “1” it destroy the StrB and if it rolls “2” the attacker decides: either StrB is damage or Fgt escort is destroyed.

    I included the TacB to get a complete house rule on SBR, you can pass by for 1942.1 or 1942.2.
    For Att and Def balance, just keep the Fgt escort paired with another Fgt escort get 1@2 and the other 1@1.

  • '17 '16

    @BJCard:

    **What about during the bombing raid- the only thing that actually kills units is AA fire?  What if the interceptors getting a ‘hit’ causes a bomber to turn back (could still be subject to AA fire); and an escort ‘hit’ causes a negation of the interceptor ‘hit.’?  **
    Every air unit represents hundreds of aircraft- I for one would strategic bomb more often if it were only AA fire I had to get through-�  interceptors would cause the bombing run to be aborted (If they get a ‘hit’).

    Maybe this isn’t historical, but dang aircraft are so expensive in this game, more than 25% of most countries’ income.�  I rarely see strategic bombing raids as it is because everyone is afraid of the ‘1’ being rolled in AA fire.�  If one side is doing Strategic bombing, likely they are already winning the game as it is (because they can afford a bomber loss).

    I’m not quite sure to fully understand your idea. Need more explanations.

    Is it like a no damage situation? If the case, how can it be interesting to put fighters in it either escort or interceptor?

    If their is only the StrB and Fgt escort making the “hits”? Will it negates an AAA fire for each hit against Fgt interceptor?


  • Well, my point is- say Germany is bombing London with

    2 bombers, 2 fighter escorts

    London scrambles 2 fighters as interceptors

    Battle of Britain ensues- London rolls- 1, 3 <-  yes! a 1! 
    Germany rolls for escorts- 2,3 <- nothing (If either got a ‘1’, they would negate the interceptor ‘1’ - as if it didn’t happen).
    Now, because a British escort got a ‘hit’, one of the German bombers must abort the bombing run.
    The other German bomber has to get through AA gun fire, but can otherwise finish the bombing run.

    So, Germany and Britain are much less afraid to have an aerial combat because the results are still beneficial to both parties if successful (Either they get to bomb London or are repulsed), but not as devastating (Only lose planes from AA fire).  You may have strategic bombing every turn with this-

    In the normal A&A rules- why would the British scramble its 2 fighters?  They can’t afford to lose one, and unlikely they get a hit anyway.  In WWII they scrambled as often as possible!

  • '17 '16

    @BJCard:

    Well, my point is- say Germany is bombing London with

    2 bombers, 2 fighter escorts

    London scrambles 2 fighters as interceptors

    Battle of Britain ensues- London rolls- 1, 3 <-� � yes! a 1!� �
    Germany rolls for escorts- 2,3 <- nothing (If either got a ‘1’, they would negate the interceptor ‘1’ - as if it didn’t happen).
    Now, because a British escort got a ‘hit’, one of the German bombers must abort the bombing run.
    The other German bomber has to get through AA gun fire, but can otherwise finish the bombing run.

    So, Germany and Britain are much less afraid to have an aerial combat because the results are still beneficial to both parties if successful (Either they get to bomb London or are repulsed), but not as devastating (Only lose planes from AA fire).� � You may have strategic bombing every turn with this-� �

    In the normal A&A rules- why would the British scramble its 2 fighters? � They can’t afford to lose one, and unlikely they get a hit anyway. � In WWII they scrambled as often as possible!� �

    Thanks for your reply,

    That’s why it was better to give Fgt interceptor @2 instead of OOB Global SBR rule @1: option A.
    Defending with 2@2 is far better than 2@1.
    The temptation to fight for the kill attacker @1 is an advantage in DK’s SBR rules: option B.
    In house rule option B: it is 2A1 vs 2D2. In my SBR rule option D it is 1A1 and 1A2 vs 2D2.

    With your option E, you will probably have more SBR and it worth a try.
    I’m wondering: why not allow fighters making also real risky mission.
    In this case, SBR is like a first stage before the Combat Move start.
    Of course Bombers in SBR can not attack other targets. But you can allow fighter to be usefull elsewhere.


  • If interceptors hit on a 1 or 2, then UK/USA will likely never strategic bomb Germany because they likely have 3+ fighters in Berlin.

    I like that you are trying to come up with better rules though, just hard to keep it all straight.

  • '17 '16

    @BJCard:

    If interceptors hit on a 1 or 2, then UK/USA will likely never strategic bomb Germany because they likely have 3+ fighters in Berlin.

    I like that you are trying to come up with better rules though, just hard to keep it all straight.

    Let’s give it a try 4 against 4:
    2 StrB @1 + 2 Fgt 1@2 &1@1= 5 points � vs 4 Fgt @2 = 8 points
    Suppose 1 hit “1” and 2 hits “2” from interceptors and a “3”.
    Results: 1 StrB is damaged and 2 Fgt down. 1 SBR (Lost 20 IPCs)

    The same dice against interceptors could result: at least 1 Fgt down and at most 2 Fgt down. (Lost 10-20 + 3-8 IPCs)

    Net result: Worse Allies scenario: 1 SBR, keep 2 StrB vs 3 Fgt / or the better one vs 2 Fgt.

    So Allies kept their bombers vs Axis may have lost the same number of fighter.

    If we change one “2” for a “1”, it becomes interesting:
    Allies can keep both StrB  damaged for the next turn and 1 Fgt but cannot SBR IC. (Lost 10 IPCs)
    Axis lost 2 fighters and even 1 third one depending on which aircraft roll the “2”. (Lost 20 or 30 IPCs but save 3-8 IPCs)
    Net result: Axis save their IC and trade 2 or 3 fighters for 1 allies Fgt.

    I think the balance is kept because giving 2 hits to StrB and 1Fgt@2 for each pair of attacking fighters that allows to give all interceptors @2. Otherwise, you came to the conclusion of OOB Global SBR minimize all @1 thus defending Fgt get no advantage and it is sheer number the decisive point.
    And this is in favor of attacker which decide how many StrB and Fgt it will place in the SBR.
    The Defense @2 and increase damage against IC when no interceptors can motive a player to engage incoming aircrafts (so the attacking player don’t get the impression of loosing a precious fleet of Fgt doing nothing to support the ground combat during SBR.)

    For me, the SBR rule is not only about IC damaged, it is also about killing $$$ precious aircraft. It must be a balance gamble for both the Axis and the Allies.

  • '17 '16

    As I work the last post out I’m pondering:
    if to keep balance, and still introducing 2 hits bombers, is it necessary to expose them to AAA fire even when they are damaged?
    Because in a situation of loosing 1 Bomber and doing 1 SBR or keeping 2 damage Bomber, attacking player will probably prefer keep a 12 IPCs unit rather trying inflicting a 3-8 IPCs damage.

    If the damage bomber can still be destroy by AAA fire, the attacking player will had a more difficult tactical decision: risking both Bombers for no damage on IC (0-24 IPCs lost) or lose 12 IPCs and making 3-8 damages but it can still be a 24 IPCs lost if AAA hit “1”.

    The option D is much more preserving attacking StrB, by introducing the AAA exposure for all StrB it may decrease the frequency of SBR because of a psychological fear of loosing this precious unit.

    So by trying to equilibrate the loss between Att and Def, it can decrease what we want to promote…

  • '16 '15 '14 Customizer

    By jove I think I have it!

    Picturing the battle, the bombers would be flying with an interceptor shield around them, so you are right - some of the interceptors should hit escorts. To simplify it: of those that hit, half may hit escorts, half may get through to hit bombers.

    Therefore:

    1. Attacking bombers and escorts all roll @ 1. (casualties all return fire)

    2. Interceptors roll @ 2

    All ones destroy bombers first as priority, then escorts

    All twos destroy escorts first as priority, then force bombers home

    So….

    A bomber and an escort dogfight with three int:

    • Roll 2 dice for attackers - a “1” is rolled - defender loses a fighter.

    • The three fighters fire back - and get two “2’s” - attacker loses the escort. Since there are no other escorts, the bomber is forced home by the other “2”.

    This adjustment makes the interceptors twice as effective as the attackers - as they should be over home soil, but softens them a bit by spreading their hits over both plane types and by sending 1/2 the bombers back home where they can attack another day. Â

  • '17 '16

    @Der:

    By jove I think I have it!

    Picturing the battle, the bombers would be flying with an interceptor shield around them, so you are right - some of the interceptors should hit escorts. To simplify it: 1/2 may hit escorts, 1/2 may get through to hit bombers.

    Therefore:

    1. Attacking bombers and escorts all roll @ 1. (casualties all return fire)

    2. Interceptors roll @ 2

    **All ones destroy bombers first as priority, then escorts

    All twos destroy escorts first as priority, then force bombers home**
    So….

    A bomber and an escort dogfight with three int:

    • Roll 2 dice for attackers - a “1” is rolled - defender loses a fighter.

    • The three fighters fire back - and get two “2’s” - attacker loses the escort. Since there are no other escorts, the bomber is forced home by the other “2”.

    This adjustment makes the interceptors twice as effective as the attackers - as they should be over home soil, but softens them a bit by spreading their hits over both plane types and by sending 1/2 the bombers back home where they can attack another day. �

    That’s work but it is still a StrB grinder vs OOB Global.
    A different situation 2StrB+2 Fgt /3 Int Fgt.
    Rolls: “3” “3” “1” “4” � � � vs “2” “2” “3”

    A) Global 1940: only @1 count so Defender loose 1Fgt / still 1 SB on IC.
    B) Dk revised: only @2 for Def Fgt : Def loose 1 Fgt/ Att loose 2Fgt.
    D) BM version 2: StrB get 2 hits Def loose 1 Fgt / Att loose 2 Fgt.

    So at first B and D are similar but change the two “2” for “1”
    Rolls: “3” “3” “1” “4” � � � vs “1” “1” “3”

    A) Attacker loose 2 Fgt.
    B) Attacker loose 2 StrB No SB on IC
    D) Attacker whether loose 1StrB but get 1 SB on IC/ or No SB but 2 damaged StrB can turn back home.

    I make some thoughts simulation of scenarii.
    The less aircraft the more A B and D have similar effect. The more aircraft the more A B and D diverge and get their essential traits.
    A) Escorting Fgt killers � (1/6vs Fgt first for each interceptors)
    B) StrB & Fgt killers (1/6 vs Fgt&StrB for each Interceptors)
    C) Mainly Fgt killer but can tgt StrB (1/6 vs Fgt, 1/6x1/6=1/36 vs StrB for each Interceptors.)

    Thus DK’s SBR rules revised works but “1s” are still fearsome for the attacker.
    That why introducing StrB with 2 hits reduced somewhat this effect of the terrible “1”.
    To be clear I’m not trying to convince you that mine D are better than your B.
    Your tread with “2” forcing StrB to turn back opens a wide number of thinking outside the box. 🙂
    The StrB get two hit was a way to adjust your idea with A&A system and the nearer rule was about the 2 hits BB.
    This is not a final point, I think their is still many fine tuning to reach a SBR rule that will promote a lot more aircrafts battle than actually.

  • '17 '16

    I have a new version of SBR rule, I call it F because E was � :
    @BJCard:

    What about during the bombing raid- the only thing that actually kills units is AA fire? � What if the interceptors getting a ‘hit’ causes a bomber to turn back (could still be subject to AA fire); and an escort ‘hit’ causes a negation of the interceptor ‘hit.’? �
    Every air unit represents hundreds of aircraft- I for one would strategic bomb more often if it were only AA fire I had to get through- � interceptors would cause the bombing run to be aborted (If they get a ‘hit’).

    Maybe this isn’t historical, but dang aircraft are so expensive in this game, more than 25% of most countries’ income. � I rarely see strategic bombing raids as it is because everyone is afraid of the ‘1’ being rolled in AA fire. � If one side is doing Strategic bombing, likely they are already winning the game as it is (because they can afford a bomber loss).

    Version F:
    Apply only for the SBR battle, not any ground combat.
    StrB 2A@1 can take 1 hit before being destroyed.
    TacB A3 can take 1 hit before being destroyed.
    Fgt A3 can take 1 hit before being destroyed.
    Fgt Def 4 can take 1 hit before being destroyed.

    _The airbattle lasts for 2 rounds.

    Any aircraft can retreat after first round.
    On second round all hits must be allocated, no retreat allowed._

    After this 2 rounds,
    any attacking StrB survivors (even damaged) can proceed toward AAA and IC. Only undamaged TcB can proceed and attacks AB & NB.

    I prefer to allow each StrB Att2@1 to simulate the Flying Fortress MGs.
    And gives a better defense against the interceptors when alone just to be able to get one Fgt down.

    Attacker and defender allocate hits as they want, except for this one rule:
    The attacker, after allocating a hit to an undamaged fighter, must allocate a hit to a StrB  or a TacB or a damaged Fgt. This obligation is reset for each round. Thus, even if the last hit of the first round was allocated to an undamaged Fgt, the attacker can allocate a first hit on an undamaged Fgt on the second round.
    This rule is a way to integrate “Bomber are ennemy’s priority target”.

    Example 1: 1 StrB vs 2 Fgt
    Rolls: � “2” “2” � � � � � � � “6” “4”
    Result: 1 StrB damaged.
    Before 2nd round: StrB can retreat.
    Because, on the other round the StrB can be destroyed if any 1 Fgt hits.

    Example 2: 2 StrB vs 2 Fgt
    Rolls: � � “1” “2” "1"“2” � � “2” “4”
    Result: � 2 StrB damaged / 2 Fgt damaged
    2nd rolls: “1” “3” � � “2” "3 � � � � � � � � � � � � “4” “5”
    Result: 1 StrB down 1StrB can SB IC / � 1 Fgt destroyed � 1Fgt damaged

    The second round lets every player a chance to retreat before getting too much damage on his or her aircrafts.

    Do you think this SBR rules could generate more SBR because it let more calculated risks for both attacker or defense?

    That’s what I hope.

  • '17 '16

    Version F:
    Apply only for the SBR battle, not any ground combat.

    TacB A3 can take 1 hit before being destroyed.
    Fgt A3 Def4 can take 1 hit before being destroyed.

    I know somebody would prefer a more historical accuracy for TacB:
    TacB Att2, if the case, add paired with Fgt give 1@4 to this Fgt.
    It’s Ok for me, I chose TacB A3 because it is the OOB 1940 attacking value.
    It was for simplicity.

  • '17 '16

    @toblerone77:

    Just my humble opinion but SBR has gone out of control, improperly moddded, and just plain stupid in every game since classic. The point was to stop production and destroy resources. The further the distance the the more danger bombers had to face. i’m going to work on this……

    I feel here melancholy for the “old time classics”… 😉

    But there is truth in what you said.
    Thus, if we like aircrafts battles over UK and Germany and keep the odds as the classics every thing over the AAA IC should get inside a 1/6 chance to hit each bombers, every thing else is more dangerous than the basic rules about SBR. Worth thinking about it.
    Thanks for your comments: back to basic, yah!!!

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