Air combat in the first round, bfr Naval or ground Cmbt & Air Supremacy

  • '17 '16

    I’m wondering about a way to add some flavor to naval combat in the Pacific (for 1942.1, 1942.2 or even Global versions).

    Before every naval combat, allow 1 round of air combat between attacking and defending aircrafts.

    All Fighters, Tac bombers and Strat Bombers attack and defend @1.

    Hits are allocated separetly on a one on one basis. If one side outnumbers the other, then 1 aircraft can be targetted twice. Bomber are always the priority target. TacB are always second and fighter third.
    Example 1, 1 Strat Bomber and 1 fighter attack 4 fighters. The third and fourth fighters defend @1, one against the Bomber and the other against the fighter.
    If their was only 3 defending fighters, then the Bomber can be hit twice and only one time for the other attacking fighter.
    Example 2, 5 fighters against 1 TacB and 1fighter. The TacB is targetted three times and twice for the fighter.

    If two aircrafts targeting the same enemy aircraft get both a hit, the additionnal hit is pass to another target following the order of priority, so no “1” is lost.
    Example 3, 8 fighters against 1 TacB and 2 fgts. The TacB and one Fgt is targetted three times.
    �  �  �  �  �  �  �  � If only 2 rolls out of 8 get “1” and fall on the same Fgt, then the second hit is allocated to the TacB, not the second Fgt.

    Thus, this rules will simulates how easier it was to shot Strat and Tac Bomber. And at the same time, they can still be screened by their escorting fighters if they outnumbered the opponent.

    All attacking aircrafts must be part of this unique round of air combat.

    The defending player get some choice to determine the number of defending aircraft:

    If there is only 1 fighter (or TacB) on a carrier, then their is no aircombat (the aircraft is considered patrolling near the other naval units).
    The naval battle is as usual.
    If there is 2 fighters (or TacB) on a carrier, then 1 fighter is sent away against incoming attacking aircraft(s).

    If there is 3 or more fighters, the defender can sent 1 or more aircrafts but must always keep 1 aircraft in reserve near the naval units. (So the defender always keep 1 aircraft that will fights normaly (at @4 or @3) screened by cheaper unit or a BB that absorbs 1 hit.)
    In the 1940 version, if the sea-zone is near an airbase, the defender can scramble up to 3 fighters (no TacB) against the attacking aircrafts.

    This first round of battle before the regular naval combat occurs, is it unbalanced in favor of the attacker?
    Is it better to give to the defending aircraft a defense @2 to outweight the superiority numbers of the attacker ?

    Does the defender choice too limited?
    Instead let’s give the defending player the choice to send even his only aircraft (and all his aircrafts) but keep the defense @1?

    Is it a real way to simulate the Pacific battles or just a sophisticated rule with no benefits?

    What do you think of all this?

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    An interesting concept… but I don’t see it as reasonably practical, helpful, or strategic.

    HOWEVER.  On the same line of thinking, I would argue there is a case for an “air supremacy” bonus.

    IE… if you have more planes than your opponent, maybe for every 2 planes, you get an extra dice.  OR you get a re-roll chance for any missing planes that are “extra”.

    Or something like that… ??


  • Gargantua- if you gave air supremacy bonuses without giving the allies more aircraft to start the game, than Germany and Japan will have air supremacy in 9 of 10 battles.  Why give the Axis more of an advantage than they already have?

  • '17 '16

    After reading more comments on SBR and Air Supremacy,
    I will add that this way of allocating hits can be used against StratB during SBR.

    Also, instead of giving every aircraft att or def@1, I suggest now:
    Strat and TacB Att1 Def1 against other aircrafts.
    Fighter (escort or interceptor) att@1 /def@1 (single) but when paired with either 1 other fighter or 1 TacB gained att@2 /def@2 for this fighter only.

    Example:
    during a SBR: 4 planes: 1StratB+2TacB+1Fgt = SB Att 1@1+TB Att2@1+Fgt Att 1@2
    defending interceptors: 5 Fgt = 2 Fgt: 2Def@2 + 3 Fgt 3Def@1
    When allocating rolls and hits: an escort screen is trying to protect the main aircrafts from being targetted, the fighter@2 are allocated to other fighter before any other aircraft.

    The 1st and 2nd D@2 goes against Fighter / the 3rd and 4th D@1 against the two TcB/
    the 5th D@1 against Bomber/
    A 6th  would be allocated against the Fgt
    a 7th allocated target would have been then (for the 2nd time) one of the TcB.

    So even if StrBomber and TacBomber are protected in priority, after getting two rolls against them, the fighter escort is nontheless doing is job.
    The defender still have a real chance to destroy bigger target but once per plane in most case, unless attackers are very outnumbered.

    In case of a double hit against the same target,
    I suggest now to put the “hit” on the next other kind of aircraft if possible:

    1st hit: StrB, then 2nd hit get down a Fighter, (if none then a TacB)
    1st hit: TacB, then 2nd hit get down a StrB, (if none then a Fighter)
    1st hit Fighter, then 2nd hit get down a TacB, and if there is none then at last a StratBomber.

    So it is possible to destroy the Strategic Bomber even if their is only one hit, so this contradict the rule about SBR and escort from Global 1940 that say defender always allocates hit.
    In this case, surely the defending player would discard the fighter, but this house rule say if the rolls that score the hit was already allocate to the bomber then it is.

    About the aircombat phase preceeding the first cycle of a naval combat I rather prefer now this option:

    Instead let’s give the defending player the choice to send even his only aircraft (and all his aircrafts).

    I rewrite the initial post:

    I’m wondering about a way to add some flavor to naval combat in the Pacific (for 1942.1, 1942.2 or even Global versions).

    Before every naval combat, allow 1 round of air combat between attacking and defending aircrafts.

    All Fighters, Tac bombers and Strat Bombers attack and defend @1.
    However, 1 fighter paired with a TacB or another fighter get Att/Def@2.

    Each roll are allocated separately on a one on one basis except for the first fighter escort which block two aircrafts then letting one go on other target.
    Bomber are always the most protected target. TacB are second.
    If one side outnumbers the other, then one aircraft is targetted twice (or three times for a fighter), then a second and so forth.

    In this way, 1) the first individual fighter can be targetted three times before targetting another fighter twice 2) a TacB being a double target, then 3) Strat Bomber at last.

    Fighter @2 are allocated first to the fighters then TacB, and last to the Strat Bomber.

    Example 1
    1 Strat Bomber and 1 fighter attack 4 fighters.
    Thus, two fighters defend @2, and two defend @1.
    The first two @2 are allocated to the escorting fighter.
    The third one @1 is allocated to the Bomber.
    The fourth one @1 is allocated to the fighter.

    If their was only 2 defending fighters, the Bomber couldn’t be hit.

    Example 2
    5 fighters attack against 1 TacB and 1 fighter.
    2 fighters @2 and 3 fighters @1.
    The TacB is @1, the fighter @2.
    The fighter is targetted three times 2@2, 1@1 and two times for the TacB 2@1 .
    If their was only 4 fighters the TacB would only be the target of 1@1.

    If two aircrafts targeting the same enemy aircraft get both a hit, the additionnal hit is pass to another target following the order of protection (Fgt toward TacB toward StrB toward Fgt), so no “1” is lost.

    Example 3
    8 fighters against 1 TacB and 2 fgts.
    4@2&4@1 vs 2@1&1@2.
    The two Fgt are targeted three times (2@2+1@1) each and 2@1 for TacB.
    If only 2 rolls out of 8 get “1” and fall on the same Fgt, then the second hit is allocated to the TacB, not the second Fgt.

    So, this rules will make possible to shot Strat and Tac Bomber even behind a screened of escort fighters even during a Strategic Bombing Raid. And at the same time, bombers are still screened by their escorting fighters if they outnumbered the opponent. Thus making less likely to lose those bombers instead of fighters.

    All attacking aircrafts must be part of this unique round of air combat before a naval battle occur.

    The defending player get some choice to determine the number of defending aircraft:

    If there is only 1 fighter (or TacB) on a carrier, then their is no aircombat (the aircraft is considered patrolling near the other naval units).
    The naval battle is as usual.
    If there is 2 fighters (or TacB) on a carrier, then 1 fighter is sent away against incoming attacking aircraft(s).

    If he had 3 or more fighters, the defender can sent 1 or more aircrafts but should keep 1 aircraft in reserve near the naval units. (So the defender always keep 1 aircraft that will fights normally (at @4 or @3) screened by cheaper unit or a BB that absorbs 1 hit.)

    In the 1940 version, if the sea-zone is near an airbase, the defender can scramble up to 3 fighters (no TacB) against the attacking aircrafts.

    This first round of battle before the regular naval combat occurs, is it unbalanced in favor of the Axis in 1942 (and about 1940)?

    Does the defender choice too limited?
    Instead let’s give the defending player the choice to send even his only aircraft (and all his aircrafts)?

    Is it a real way to simulate the Pacific battles and enhanced battle during SBR or just a sophisticated rule with no benefits?

    What do you think of all this?


  • This is getting crazy.  In this strategic level game air units are representing hundreds of aircraft, and they cost a lot of IPCs.  If we make them too vulnerable in a strategic bombing raid then there would be less of them (How many strategic bombing do you see?  The only ones I see are German/Italian bombs over London or Moscow- never the western allies because it is too easy for Germany to have 5+ fighters in West Germany to intercept).

    Naval battles.  Maybe have air combat first, but there are so few battles in this game between carrier groups that we may not see this even in effect.  It may even make scrambling land based aircraft even more powerful than they already are.  What will the Allies do when they are always outnumbered in aircraft?  You want to make the Axis even more powerful?

  • '17 '16

    @BJCard:

    This is getting crazy.  In this strategic level game air units are representing hundreds of aircraft, and they cost a lot of IPCs.  If we make them too vulnerable in a strategic bombing raid then there would be less of them (How many strategic bombing do you see?  The only ones I see are German/Italian bombs over London or Moscow- never the western allies because it is too easy for Germany to have 5+ fighters in West Germany to intercept).

    Naval battles.  Maybe have air combat first, but there are so few battles in this game between carrier groups that we may not see this even in effect.  It may even make scrambling land based aircraft even more powerful than they already are.  What will the Allies do when they are always outnumbered in aircraft?  You want to make the Axis even more powerful?

    Thanks, that the kind of post I like: detail and to the point.
    It will helps me figure it out something else.


  • @Baron:

    @BJCard:

    This is getting crazy.  In this strategic level game air units are representing hundreds of aircraft, and they cost a lot of IPCs.  If we make them too vulnerable in a strategic bombing raid then there would be less of them (How many strategic bombing do you see?  The only ones I see are German/Italian bombs over London or Moscow- never the western allies because it is too easy for Germany to have 5+ fighters in West Germany to intercept).

    Naval battles.  Maybe have air combat first, but there are so few battles in this game between carrier groups that we may not see this even in effect.  It may even make scrambling land based aircraft even more powerful than they already are.  What will the Allies do when they are always outnumbered in aircraft?  You want to make the Axis even more powerful?

    Thanks, that the kind of post I like: detail and to the point.
    It will helps me figure it out something else.

    I was not trying to be obtuse, just trying to follow all the proposed house rules make my head hurt.

  • '17 '16

    @BJCard:

    @Baron:

    @BJCard:

    This is getting crazy.  In this strategic level game air units are representing hundreds of aircraft, and they cost a lot of IPCs.  If we make them too vulnerable in a strategic bombing raid then there would be less of them (How many strategic bombing do you see?  The only ones I see are German/Italian bombs over London or Moscow- never the western allies because it is too easy for Germany to have 5+ fighters in West Germany to intercept).

    Naval battles.  Maybe have air combat first, but there are so few battles in this game between carrier groups that we may not see this even in effect.  It may even make scrambling land based aircraft even more powerful than they already are.  What will the Allies do when they are always outnumbered in aircraft?  You want to make the Axis even more powerful?

    Thanks, that the kind of post I like: detail and to the point.
    It will helps me figure it out something else.

    I was not trying to be obtuse, just trying to follow all the proposed house rules make my head hurt.

    There was no irony when I wrote it.
    I really appreciate a fair comments.
    I had Global 1940 but didn’t get a chance to test anything yet.
    So you’re point of view mean something real.

  • '17 '16

    @BJCard:

    @Baron:

    @BJCard:

    This is getting crazy.  In this strategic level game air units are representing hundreds of aircraft, and they cost a lot of IPCs.  If we make them too vulnerable in a strategic bombing raid then there would be less of them (How many strategic bombing do you see?  The only ones I see are German/Italian bombs over London or Moscow- never the western allies because it is too easy for Germany to have 5+ fighters in West Germany to intercept).

    Naval battles.  Maybe have air combat first, but there are so few battles in this game between carrier groups that we may not see this even in effect.  It may even make scrambling land based aircraft even more powerful than they already are.  What will the Allies do when they are always outnumbered in aircraft?  You want to make the Axis even more powerful?

    Thanks, that the kind of post I like: detail and to the point.
    It will helps me figure it out something else.

    I was not trying to be obtuse, just trying to follow all the proposed house rules make my head hurt.

    The initial rule: all aircrafts @1 Att or Def is OOB rules.
    The jetfighter had Att or Def @2.

    I was trying to fit the fighter in its due place.
    That why I introduce 2 elements:
    Fighter paired with another Fgt/TcB gain @2.
    More able to screen TcB or StrB from enemy aircrafts: must allocate 2 rolls against fighter before getting access to TcB and StrB.

    After your comments, I had to inverse the rule about priority target because it means too much danger for Bombers to risk a SBR (which means going in combat mission instead). Thus they need a better cover from other TcB and Fgt.

    To complet those rule is to integrate the house rule on Air Supremacy.
    I like the idea of Aircraft making first shot when their is no air cover or AAA to protect ground units.

    This is what I’m thinking about:

    @Baron:

    @Game:

    The issue is control of the air

    The quick fix for these facts is the optional rule “Air Supremacy”:

    Air Supremacy
    Fighters attack or defend in the opening fire step of combat if no enemy fighters or AA-guns are present or remain in combat. Any casualties are removed from play without being able to counterattack.

    I like it because it gives another reason to buy AAA in this game.

    Question:
    In 1942.2, does AAA blocks all aircrafts for Air Supremacy or only 3 aircrafts?

    Other question: if someone uses the house rule Cruiser get 1 AA shot, will you use it in a way to block Air Supremacy for all aircrafts or only 1?

    Thanks anyone to tell me about how you use this rule in your games and how it affect the balance between Axis and the Allies.

    Just to complete the details on this rule:

    @Baron:

    @B.:

    @Imperious:

    Yes i second that… air fights air untill one side has so air and following that hits go against land forces as preemtives. Thats very simple.

    One need to think more than once before engage an enemy force of figthers and how to protect those bombers. By your rule fighters will be a very important unit, maybe too important and hence become a game breaker. However I will try it in my next game. Another variant would be what I suggested before, air-to-air combat for the first cycle of combat where only air units may be taken as casualities. If no side has got air supremacy after the first cycle of combat, the fighters attack as normal. If air supremacy then fighters attack/defend during opening fire step of combat!

    I would like to know what kind of rule you use.
    Is it like 1942.1 : Fgt A1/Bmb A0  vs Fgt D2?
    Is it like 1942.2 : Fgt A1/Bmb A1 preemptives shots vs Fgt D2?
    Is it like Global 1940: Fgt A1/Bmb A1 vs Fgt D1?
    And if it’s neither, maybe you have an idea on wich one among these three is better for tactical and balance.

    Great idea:
    “If air supremacy then fighters attack/defend during opening fire step of combat!”
    Air Supremacy
    Fighters attack or defend in the opening fire step of combat if no enemy fighters or AA-guns are present or remain in combat. Any casualties are removed from play without being able to counterattack." 🙂
    By fighters, you mean any aircraft probably?

  • '17 '16

    @BJCard:

    It may even **make scrambling land based aircraft even more powerful than they already are. ** What will the Allies do when they are always outnumbered in aircraft?  You want to make the Axis even more powerful?

    I would like to learn more about what you saw in this.

    Otherwise, as long as we talk about SBR, Allies outnumbered can still wait, duck and cover, one turn or two just to built a substantial airfleet. It means Axis used and diverted some aircraft from land and sea battle. So even a defensive refusal to engage Bombers and escorts can work.

  • '17 '16

    This post give an interesting historical point of view:
    @Game:

    The issue is control of the air

    In World War II, pure naval firepower didn’t mean a thing unless one have the planes to back it up. Surface ships without air protection were simply vulnerable to air attacks. The Japanese gave a very convincing demonstration of this early in the war, sinking two armored British warships (Repulse and Prince of Wales). And unlike Pearl Harbor, The British ships were at sea and underway, capable of maneuver and prepared for air defense. And yet they were sunk … quickly.

    Carriers themselves were vulnerable to air attack – though they proved more durable than many expected. But they could also deliver offensive blows from hundreds of miles away, long before heavy ships had closed to within range of island objectives. So one of the primary tasks assigned to the fast carrier forces was the destruction and suppression of enemy air forces. The fast carriers would sweep in ahead of the landing and bombardment forces, seize control of the air, and maintain control of the air until local ground-based forces could take over. This kind of offensive strike was the best possible defense, both for the carriers and the heavy ships.

    Carriers and battleships were fundamentally different weapons. A heavy ship could only throw its ordnance a few miles; a carrier could strike targets hundreds of miles away. A heavy ship had to stay in close proximity to its objective. A carrier 200 or 250 miles out had thousands of square miles of sea to disappear into, and would still be in striking range of its targets. The fleet carriers held the edge in terms of raw speed and maneuverability. And they were more difficult to put out of action than anticipated. A ship that’s hard to find, hard to hit, and capable of delivering heavy blows from hundreds of miles away is a formidable weapon.

    Moreover, the Allies won battlefield air supremacy in the Pacific in 1943, and in Europe in 1944. That meant that Allied supplies and reinforcements would get through to the battlefront, but not the enemy’s. It meant that the Allies air power could support land forces in their immediate combat, as a form of “flying artillery”. In Europe the Allied fighter-bombers seemed everywhere, and it was difficult for the Germans to move in daylight. Close airsupport might attack the tank or artillery piece that is actively attacking friendly troops.

    The quick fix for these facts is the optional rule “Air Supremacy”:

    Air Supremacy
    Fighters attack or defend in the opening fire step of combat if no enemy fighters or AA-guns are present or remain in combat. Any casualties are removed from play without being able to counterattack.

  • '17 '16

    Exploration on SBR.

    Cpt_Hellcat wrote:
    I would like to see the bases knocked out for a turn which make them juicier targets for SBR.

    1. Pay to repair damage as now.
    2. Repairs do not take effect until beginning of Mobilize Units phase.

    3. Then place new units, so a newly repaired factory can still place units, but bases are inactive for the turn. Ships being repaired at a newly repaired naval base would also be repaired at the same time (when new units are placed, so the damaged ship would have to sit there for the whole turn).

    Regarding SBR and escorts/intercepts, the only change I’d consider is having all aircraft dogfight simultaneously so that escorts would be at risk and could also be taken as casualties to let a bomber make it thru. Not sure if I’d let escorts take AA hits for bombers as well, though.

    SBR on ICs is still a viable option - the +2 per bomber is right on, IMO.

    I’ve considered this change in repair phase as well. As it is, the repair phase seems shoehorned in, matching up with AA50 rules for repair. The problem is that AA50 repair made no difference at what time in the turn it was, as long as it was before the place unit phase. Delaying repair to end of turn didn’t matter then.

    NOW, with the introduction of installation pieces that can be bombed, and also make a difference DURING the turn (again, factories only matter at end of turn), I think it was a missed opportunity not splitting the repair phase (or rather thinking of it as a repair takes time just like the build so pay now, fixed/finished later). However, just to be clear, I don’t buy spreading it over multiple turns as IL campaigns, because I think that snowball effect would be too much to ever overcome - first player to 8 bombers wins.

    If repair was changed, it would make bombing campaigns against naval installations a HUGE tactical/strategic target. It would also mean damaged ships would need to stay out of battle for at least a little while (on the other hand, the Bismark gets fixed at end of G1, among other switches). range form airbases, or paratrooping tech, would also be affected.

    The only loaner ends up being scrambling, and the best way to make airbases a priority target is to rearrange SBRs turn order… Again, in previous games it made perfect sense that SBRs took place during the combat phase - clean, and absolutely no ramifications to gameplay. But if SBRs took place prior to scrambling, the airbase is VERY important. As a bonus, the Battle of Britain is reflected more honestly - control of the air was to be met by attacking airfields, to prevent the British being able to field fighters later.

    I’m not sure it wouldn’t break aspects of the game (but it would open up other tactics, and isn’t that the point in a massive theater or global game?). But I am a little surprised that it wasn’t this way to begin with. Like I said, prior to AA1940, repair phase timing made no difference as long as it was before mobilize. Now, timing makes a HUGE difference, and would give installation SBRs much more importance. So much so that the +2 might have to go away. And tac bomber hits on installations might have to be nerfed (div by 2, round up, so max 3 damage, calculate tac bomber hits individually. a hit of 3 and a hit of 5 is a total of 1.5=2, 2.5= 3, 5 total damage, not 8 total div 2 = 4 damage)

  • '18 '17 '16

    @ Baron: For some time I tracked your threads with an increasing interest. All inputs you gave were very interesting and worthwhile to think about, but…meanwhile I’m really curious about your rulebook and how you will manage to get it across to other players? I imagine, all the extended rules will make it to roundabout a 20-30 extra pages? Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to annoy you, but did you already took into the account AA novices or even experienced players, who shall make themselves familiar with the (extended) game rules? Yet my friends -new to the game -are bothered and annoyed by the details of the rulebook of 42.1.


  • @Baron:

    @BJCard:

    It may even **make scrambling land based aircraft even more powerful than they already are. ** What will the Allies do when they are always outnumbered in aircraft?  You want to make the Axis even more powerful?

    I would like to learn more about what you saw in this.

    Otherwise, as long as we talk about SBR, Allies outnumbered can still wait, duck and cover, one turn or two just to built a substantial airfleet. It means Axis used and diverted some aircraft from land and sea battle. So even a defensive refusal to engage Bombers and escorts can work.

    Germany can protect its fleet with up to three aircraft if said fleet was attacked by sea/air.  It is like having an aircraft carrier there but not having to spend the money on one.  Yes, the western allies can spend money on air to achieve parity with the Axis, probably sometime turn 4; however they will not have an adequate fleet/army if all they do is build aircraft.  (roughly, by memory): Germany starts the game with 5 fighters, 5 tac bombers, 2 str bombers.  Italy 2 fighters, 1 str bomber, Japan eleventybillion aircraft (Ok, something like 10 fighters, 8 tac bombers, 2 str bombers).

    Russia starts with 2 fighters, 1 tac bomber; UK (Split between England, Med, and India) 7 fighters, 2 tac bombers, 1 str bomber; ANZAC 3 fighters, France 1 fighter; US 5 fighters, 1 tac bomber, 1 str bomber.

    So in essence it is (These are rough numbers):
    Axis: 30+ air (split 2.5 ways)
    Allies: 25 air (split 4+ ways)

    No ally can gain air superiority on their own without spending craptons of money on it over several turns; especially in the Pacific.

  • '17 '16

    Here is a new start for an Air Combat phase before Naval Combat:

    This house rule on Air Combat phase is the first part of an Air Supremacy house rule:

    Air-to-air combat for the first cycle of combat where only air units may be taken as casualities.

    If no side has got Air supremacy after the first cycle of combat, the aircrafts attack as normal.
    If Air Supremacy is obtained, then aircrafts attack/defend during opening fire step of combat.

    Air Supremacy
    Aircrafts making first shots when their is no air cover or AAA to protect ground/naval units.
    Aircrafts attack or defend in the opening fire step of combat if no enemy aircraft (Fighters / Tactical Bombers / Strategical Bombers) or AAA guns are present or remain in combat.
    Effect: any ground or naval casualties are removed from play without being able to counterattack.
    AAA: each AAA (1942.2/1940) blocks 3 aircrafts from getting Air Supremacy.
    Cruiser (house rule: if acting like 1 naval AA gun): each CA block 1 aircraft from getting Air Supremacy.

    Units and value:
    Escorts are attacking fighters.
    Interceptors are defending fighters.

    Jet fighter A@2 & D@3
    Fgt Interceptor @2
    Bombers (StrB and TcB) @1
    **Fighter escort @1 +1 if paired with 1 TcB or Fgt. *****
    So 1 pair of Fgts: 1@2 and the other 1@1.
    TacB can be either attacking (each giving +1 Att to 1 Fgt) or defending.
    Since defending Fgts already @2, defending TacB give no bonus to Fgts.

    For a single round, aircrafts from each side fires (attacker, first, then defender, no preemptive shot) against ennemy aircrafts.

    The defending player get some choices to determine the number of defending aircraft(s):
    If there is only 1 fighter(or TacB)  on a carrier, then their is no air combat (the aircraft is considered patrolling near the other naval units).
    The naval battle is as usual.

    If there is 2 fighters (or TacB) on a carrier, then 1 or 2 aircraft(s) are sent away against incoming attacking aircraft(s).

    If he had 3 or more aircrafts, the defender must send all aircrafts but one; he could also send the 1 aircraft kept in reserve near the naval units.
    (So the defender can always keep 1 aircraft that will fights normally (at @4 or @3) screened by cheaper unit or a BB that absorbs 1 hit.)

    In the 1940 version, if the sea-zone is near an airbase, the defender can scramble up to 3 fighters (no TacB) against the attacking aircrafts.

    To determine which aircraft is a casuality:
    When interceptors rolls “2” they hit the escorting fighters first, then the StrB or TacB.
    Attacker choose casuality between StrB or TacB.

    When interceptors rolls “1” they hit the bombers (TcB and StrB) first, then fighters.
    When intercepting TacB rolls “1”, a hit, the attacker choose casuality amongst aircrafts.

    When an escorting fighter Att@2 rolls “2”, it hits an intercepting fighter first, then a TacB, and a StrB at last.
    Defender chooses all other casuality between Fgt, TacB or StrB (if present).

    Optional rule for Minimizing damages from Air Combat phase:
    At least 1 aircraft must be lost from 1 side or the other.

    If 1 escorting aircraft and 1 interceptor are both hit, we can introduce this special rule:
    both hits are negate for attacker and defender so neither aircrafts  are destroyed.  
    Priority is to destroy bombers (either StrB or TacB) from attacker and to destroy fighters from defenders.

    In this way, it minimizes the dramatic effect of attrition on precious units so for Aerial Combat phase the loss are reduce on each sides, for examples:
    2 Fgts lost                vs 1 Int lost becomes 1 Fgt escort lost vs 0 Fgt Int.
    1 TacB and 1 Fgt lost vs 1 Int lost becomes 1 TacB lost vs 0 Fgt Int.
    1 TacB lost                vs 1 Int lost becomes 0 TacB lost vs 0 Fgt Int.
    1 StrB and 1 TacB     vs  1 Fgt and 1 TacB lost: 1 StrB lost vs 1 Fgt.
    In the last example, the minimum lost of 1 aircraft is applied.

    Of course, if attacker looses 2 Fgts and defender none, their is no trade off.

    Latest OOB SBR rules for reference and comparison:
    1942.1 : AA fires, then surviving Fgt A1/Bmb A0  vs Fgt D2
    1942.2 : Fgt A1/Bmb A1 preemptives shots vs Fgt D2, then AA fires
    Global 1940: Fgt A1/Bmb A1 vs Fgt D1, then AA fires

    @Baron:

    Re: DK’s Strategic Bombing Rules - submitted for your review
    Here is my proposal D revised:

    Jet fighter A@2 & D@3
    Fgt Interceptor @2
    Bombers (StrB and TcB) @1
    **Fighter escort @1 +1 if paired with 1 TcB or Fgt. *****
    So 1 pair of Fgts: 1@2 and the other 1@1.

    When interceptors rolls “2” they hit the escorting fighters first, then the StrB or TacB.
    When interceptors rolls “1” they hit the bombers (TcB and StrB) first, then fighters.

    StrB now still can be destroy even behind a screen of escorting Fgts.

    *** I modified the escorting Fgt with 1@2/2 Fgts to get the exact proportion of number /2 for aircraft against ground target:
    Fgt Def4/2=2 Fgt A3/2=1.5
    TcB and StrB are still inferiors in dogfight with their @1.

    It does not contradict history in the way that even when the StrB and TacB were priority target, the intercepting Fgts doesn’t have the choice but to engage the escort screen and sometimes destroy the escorting Fgts instead of the bombers.

  • '17 '16

    Now I’m wondering if giving defending Fgt@2 isn’t too high odds against attacking aircrafts.
    Because it will unbalance naval battles in favor of defense: giving the defender a higher chance to destroy attacking units @4 (StrB and TacB) against naval units.

    To counterweight this, I’m wondering if giving each StrB 2@1 will help?

    Flying fortresses were quite able to make a good fight against fighters…

  • '17 '16

    I was thinking about the fact that A&A is more a strategical than a tactical game.
    That the House rule have just posted earlier is more tactical and maybe quite unbalancing.
    Other treads about Air Supremacy and some HR suggestion from Uncrustable help me thinking � about this:
    It is a way of incorporating flying combat over naval and ground target and also integrating Air Supremacy.

    OOB rule from 1940 about SBR and interceptors give all planes 1 round @1.
    Let’s suppose it is combine with a regular fight.

    Every round of combat, on a roll of “1”, all planes (attacker’s and defender’s) except defending bombers (because they defend@1) get to strike 1 plane (owner’s choice: Fg or Tac or Bmb).

    If there is no plane left to take that casuality, then the player’s who get the roll can pick any target of his choice amongst those present in the battle, whether ground or naval unit.
    Except for subs, unless there is a DD on the same side of the plane.

    So, a roll of “1” by aircraft mean destruction of another one.
    If there is Air Supremacy, then you can pick your casuality.

    I think it is simpler and succesful “1” can be rationalize as planes vs planes battle, and can easily give an advantage to the side which still have planes flying.

    It is not as powerful than first strike but eliminating early powerful unit at @3 or @4 can be as interesting.

    What do you say?
    �

  • '17 '16

    Here is my main influence for the preceding house rule:

    @Uncrustable:

    well talking about letting subs choose on 1s and cruisers hit air on 1s, then why not use the below?
    No single unit is OP because they all have an ability one dice rolls of ‘1’

    Follow below on dice rolls of ‘1’ in combat

    ––Super Submarines (or maybe regular subs?) on offense only can choose surface target hit (TRN, CV, CA, BB) cannot choose destroyers or other subs, transports are valid targets (maybe regular subs can only choose on offense but super subs can choose on both offense and defense?)
    ----Destroyers on offense and defense can choose a submarine hit (SS)
    ----Cruisers on offense and defense can choose an aircraft hit (FG, TAC, STRT)
    ----Battleships on offense and defense can choose a surface target hit (TRN, DD, CV, CA, BB) transports are valid targets, may not choose submarines

    ----Tanks on defense and offense can choose ground hit (INF, MECH, ART, ARM, AAA)
    ----Fighters on defense and offense can choose air hit (FG, TAC, STRT), does not apply to SBR escort/intercept
    ––Tactical bombers on offense and defense can choose ground target (INF, MECH, ART, ARM, AAA) Land combat only, cannot choose naval targets
    ––Strategic bombers on offense only; the defender will choose 2 hits instead of one (Bomber killed 2 guys instead of 1) Land combat only, does not apply to naval combat or any SBR

    NOTE: BBs cannot choose subs, Cruisers choose aircraft, subs and BBs can choose transports, DDs become even more sub hunter/killers
    Also NOTE: the units we already see purchased alot of (INF/ART/MECH/DD/CV) receive little to no boost

    Submarines on the other hand may become very powerfull on offense, which is why i seriously consider restricting it to super subs only, and on offense only

    This is a very simply and effective/historical way to bring more diversity to the game and reward dice rolls of ‘1’

    However, I better see how it can create an unbalancing effect, specially against AAA unit.
    By making plane able to destroy other plane every round on a roll of “1”, it make them far better unit than AAA for 10 IPCs only.

    And it becomes worse when we add my Air Supremacy HR because the casuality can be apply to any unit.

    That’s why, I prefer to add the following “to the first round only” restriction to the preceding HR :

    **For the first round only,
    attacking fighters on roll of “1” can pick his casuality against any aircraft, whether Fgt,TacB or StratB. And for any TacB which is attacking @4, if it rolls “2” or “1” then it is a hit against aircraft.
    If there is none, then the player can pick any other unit of his choice.

    Attacking bombers on roll of “1” can only pick ground unit casuality instead of picking plane.**

    For the first round only, any defending TacB on roll of “1” and any Fighter on a roll of “2” or “1” can pick his casuality � against any aircraft, whether Fgt,TacB or StratB.
    If there is none, then the player can pick any other unit of his choice.

    AAA defense are still roll before the regular combat phase as OOB rule, so some attacking aircrafts can already be down before being able to roll any dice.

    Now this Air Supremacy and Aerial combat over naval and ground combat is integrated in the first round of the battle. It can be as damaging as any SBR or TacBR, no more, no less.

    Addendum: The ennemy which can pick 1 casuality, do it at the end of all those selected by the owning player.
    So, if a player got 1 hit while having Air Supremacy in a naval battle, and the other player choose to damage 1 battleship amongst other casualities, then this BB can be selected and sink by the other player.

  • '17 '16

    With this preceding Air Supremacy House Rule, it needs a specific AAA Hrule:
    AAA are now A1D1M1C5, on first round they get 1@1 while on defense vs up to three planes, max 1 roll/plane as OOB rule about AAA.

    In addition, if AAA is present during the first round of a battle, then 1 AAA negates the Air Supremacy advantage of 3 aircrafts.

    So, when rolling dices and there is no plane to take the casualty, just select which plane is not covered by the Anti AirSupremacy from AAA. When this or these plane(s) get a successful roll on the first round, the player can choose which ground unit is taken as casualty.

    I think it will be a nice incentive to buy AAA with this rule.
    And a cheap AAA at 5 IPCs will be a good counterweight to Air Supremacy.

  • '17 '16

    @Baron:

    Now I’m wondering if giving defending Fgt@2 isn’t too high odds against attacking aircrafts.
    Because it will unbalance naval battles in favor of defense: giving the defender a higher chance to destroy attacking units @4 (StrB and TacB) against naval units.

    To counterweight this, I’m wondering if giving each StrB 2@1 will help?

    Flying fortresses were quite able to make a good fight against fighters…

    Absolutly not in view of the devastating effect of bombers airfleet.

    I think now it should be even lower to 1/2@1:

    1 StratB A4/0D1M6C12 can SBR and TBR, when paired with another stratB one of the two get 1@1 & the other 0@0 against incoming fighter interceptors.

  • '17 '16

    Here is my last revised version, and I hope simpler and more playable.

    I also intended by this Dogfight and Air supremacy House Rule to create a kind of little counterweight against The Bomber fleet strategy (if it ever prove is OverPower effectiveness).

    Aerial battle during the opening round of combat.
    When their is planes on both sides, the first roll is treated differently.
    It is not a different roll as regular combat roll. It is just an improve effect when a “1” is rolled.
    When attacking and defending Fighters and TacBombers which roll a “1”, instead of treating it as a regular casuality, it must be an aircraft casuality.
    It is still the owning player which decides his casuality amongst planes (Fg, TacB, StratB).

    When Strat Bombers are attacking, only the outnumbering StratB amongst aircrafts + 3/AAA can have a special effect on a roll of “1”.
    Example: 3 StratB and 2 Fg attacking 3 Fgs. Only 2 StratBs can get this special effect on a roll of “1”.
    3 StratB and 2 Fg (5 planes) attacking 1 Fg + 1 AAA (1+3=4). Only 1 StratBs can get this special effect on a roll of “1”.

    This effect is the same as Air Supremacy, which means a “1” from a StratBomber can pick any ground or naval unit as casuality, once the owning player had selected all other casualities from the whole combat round.

    StratBombers on defense have no special roll.

    Air Supremacy
    This special rule apply at one condition: no plane is present on the other side at the beginning of the battle.

    Air Supremacy give any attacking planes or defending Fighter or TacB when rolling a “1” to be able to choose as casuality any ground or naval unit once the owning player selected all other casualities.

    AAA will be A1D1M1C5, on first round can get up to 3 preemptive rolls @1 against attacking aircrafts, max 1 roll/aircraft (as OOB AAA). Each AAA can also block 3 planes from rolling for Air Supremacy, including StratB in aerial fight.
    That’s why, AAA unit can attack on a regular combat move. They attack @1, but can also prevent Air Supremacy from defending aircraft.

    Example: 3 StratBs and 2 Fgs attacking vs ground units only + 1 AAA. Only 2 planes can have a Air Supremacy effect on a roll “1”.
    So, when AAA is present, attacking or defending player have to tell which rolls are special.

    Just remember for all Air Supremacy effect:
    The ennemy player which can pick 1 casuality, do it at the end of all those selected by the owning player.
    So, if a player got 1 hit while having Air Supremacy in a naval battle, and the other player choose to damage 1 battleship amongst other casualities, then this BB can be selected and sink by the other player.

    Other OOB rules about casuality apply, like Subs cannot be taken as casuality by a plane hit if there is no DD present.
    Owning player have to allocate all hits if possible.
    So a defending player cannot keep subs lasts because some ennemy StratBombers cannot choose them. If there was some attacking surface vessels that can make hit on subs, then the defending player must allocate hit on subs and left other surface vessel to be hit or destroyed by planes.
    Etc.


  • I think it is simpler to just have a single round of air combat before regular combat begins.
    All aircraft hit on 1s, AAA are also fired during this round but all dice in this round are simultaneous,
    That is roll for AA and all planes, then remove the carnage, choosing your own casualties, proceed to normal combat
    If during ANY round of normal combat, one side has fighters while the other does not follow these simple rules for air supremacy
    Fighters may target tac or strat bombers
    Tac bombers may target ground units, land or naval.
    For both, targets must be chosen BEFORE any dice is rolled
    NOTE: strat bombers have no bonus, they don’t need one

    Also note that while you may achieve air supremacy at some point during a battle, your fighters and tac bombers do not have to choose their respective targets, but it must be decided BEFORE any dice is rolled for that particular round

  • '17 '16

    Thanks,
    you have your very own way of thinking out of the box. 😄

    Always a surprise.

    You leave me with a lot to think. :?
    In addition, your solution is nearer what I left behind in the beginning of this tread: a more tactically oriented Air combat phase (like a SBR phase).

    I have to ponder the respective value of both: more strategical or the other.

  • '17 '16

    Actually, I would not create a single round of air combat before regular combat begins.

    IMO, it creates an unbalancing effect against aircrafts strategy.
    If it was the case, the first roll of any planes could be a hit but not being taking in account.
    Example: 3 attacking fighters roll “2” “3” “3”, result: no hit against defending planes.

    But, in a regular round, it would be 3 hits.

    Creating this special air phase make all planes attack preemptive AA strike.

    While integrating it in the regular first round, it still be as a AA strike, but without preemptive effect.  So all planes can hit as a regular combat but some can still destroy them in the first round.

  • '17 '16

    Your suggestion help me think about specific role of fighters.

    I would add an Air Superiority effect for fighters (different from Air Supremacy):

    In the first round of battle, the side which have more fighters can now pick the aircraft casuality of his choice when any fighters roll “1”.

    The other side still hit planes on “1” but the casuality is still selected by owning player.

    I’m still pondering about TacB and StrB role (if any for them).

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