Is Germany screwed?


  • Customizer

    Posted this snippet of the German moves described by Larry.

    This illustrates that (with no rail movement) it takes Germany 3 turns to get new units to the Western front (i.e. Belgium & Lorraine).

    In contrast, France can push new builds straight into Lorraine, while the UK can ship pieces directly to Picardy or Belgium.

    I find it hard to see how Germany can win this fight in the long term: so is the Kaiser finished if he doesn’t take Paris by turn 3?



  • Well, Germany certainly will buy Infantry every round so there will be reinforcements every round.  This isn’t Global 1940 where you are buying Mech/Arm with Germany.  The route could be different, but likely
    Berlin -> Hanover
    Next turn could hit/reinforce:
    Kiel, Ruhr, or Alsace

    Or you go Berlin -> Kiel -> Ruhr

    In the East of course is easier: Berlin -> Prussia/Silesia -> Poland

    So, yes it takes longer for a specific purchase to make it there, but you will have 50%+ unit Purchases in each Territory between Berlin and Western Front.  The amount you split your forces between East/West/South is the key.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Well as long as germany -takes- some ground.  They’re the ones who are better off by defending it.



  • What if Austria can send a little help in southern France. Not a lot just enough to take away from the defence  of France from Germany. Maybe that will be enough to crush France.


  • Customizer

    However they do it, Germany is still left, every single turn, with a bunch of units sitting uselessly “in transit” in Kiel/Hanover/Munich, while every allied unit is on the front line doing service. It took Germany about a week to transfer an entire army from front to front, here it takes 3 turns (a year?) to march from the centre of Germany to the French border.
    It also means that Germany has in effect to plan moves three turns ahead instead of being able to react to changing fortunes, something the Allies can do instantly.

    At the very least, allow G & A to move units 2 spaces in non-combat moves.


  • 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 '12

    The dice shall do the talking.


  • Customizer

    The thing is, Germany has to plan its moves so far ahead that the Allies will know exactly what’s coming at them every turn. Without the ability to switch from front to front German strategy will be transparent, hence easily countered.



  • Unless Germany is so strong that the other allies have no other option but to rush units to the Western Front or else lose Paris.



  • Well Germany was screwed in real life so it makes sense it would be screwed no  :-D.

    Though with stronger allies than in real life (the dice assumes all men are the same standard) then I think it’s a little early to decide how the game works out just yet.



  • Maybe it’s the other way around.

    Maybe Germany needs the space to give her time before the allies can reach Berlin. I agree that telegraphing what’s to come to the front lines is a disadvantage on the offense. However, it may be balanced by giving Germany an advantage when on the defense.



  • Germany goes on defense they die.


  • Customizer

    It will also make Germany a boring power to play. All you really have to decide is how many new units to send east, and how many west. Without being able to switch emphasis with rail movement you have no strategic manouver whatsoever.

    The only alternative strategy available is to move your units by sea, essentially using the Baltic and Gulf of Bothnia to invade Russia via Petrograd. This practically invites Britain to invade Kiel, though you may have enough to defend here.
    The whole character of war between 1860 and 1945 was that of railway movement allowing powers to reinforce their armies before decisive breakthroughs could be made, hence the heavy attrition.

    If Germany takes 3 turns just to reinforce a static front against western Allies who can move units much further by sea; if the map design means that Poland, the likely main battle ground in the East, is the same distance from Berlin as from Moscow, then German is fatally crippled.

    I maintain that the Central Powers need rail movement to stand a prayer in this game. Only a huge and artificial material advantage at the start and a swift victory over France and Russia, probably before turn 4, gives them any hope.

    Yes, they lost the war in reality. But the main advantage that might have given them a victory was fast internal lines of communication. By robbing them of that you doom them.


  • Customizer

    Germany did have a very good rail network. A big reason for some of the big defeats Germany inflicted on Russia was due to the ability to move large amounts of troops by rail to come up on certain fronts. That was also something that worried the main Russian General (forget his name now) who was planning the big Russian offensive in 1916.
    Perhaps that should be reflected in the game somehow, like an extra space in NCM.



  • Your constant pleas for rail movement could be made irrelevant if production worked how I suggested.

    Powers may place one infantry in any uncontested original territory with an IPC value of two or more.


  • Customizer

    Well, yes, but I’m assuming that when Larry says all new units are placed in the capital he means it, however retrograde the idea is.



  • If rail movement was done, however it would be done, would be clunky, only because it would add an extra layer to the game.
    (spare me your simplified version of rail movement, the ONLY simple version would be a “strategic redeployment phase” where a power can move X units triple distance or something)

    Production in all original contiguous 2+ IPC territories would have been a GREAT stopgap to avoid all this insanity.
    Because I get what you are saying about the long march to the Western Front.

    HOWEVER your map may be wrong, Hanover might not exist and be part of the Berlin territory, allowing German units to shuttle right into Ruhr or Alsace.


  • Customizer

    Larry specifically mentions Hanover, which can only be where I’ve placed it. The borders may be slightly different, i.e. Alsace may have a border with Tyrolia, but I’m sure this map is essentially correct for Germany.

    There is nothing clunky about my rail rule. You simply make all combat moves first, then move remaining units by unlimited rail. This really is how it was done - Germany DID move entire armies by rail across the length of the country in the space of a week - why do people have a problem with that?

    Again, the entire character of warfare in this period was shaped by the ability to quickly reinforce front lines by utilizing the rail networks. Without it, the game more closely resembles the Napoleonic conflict.



  • I agree with you Flashman. Simple and effective non combat Rail movement rules could of been made for this game. It could still work out well. We’ll have to see when we get the game.



  • @knp7765:

    Germany did have a very good rail network. A big reason for some of the big defeats Germany inflicted on Russia was due to the ability to move large amounts of troops by rail to come up on certain fronts. That was also something that worried the main Russian General (forget his name now) who was planning the big Russian offensive in 1916.
    Perhaps that should be reflected in the game somehow, like an extra space in NCM.

    Brusliov



  • Perhaps it is and we just don’t know it yet……Perhaps units have unlimited movement amongst contiguous original territory. (or maybe just Germany does because the Ottomans don’t deserve such a rule)



  • Even if playtesting was shoddy, it’s really hard to say that Germany could be screwed because testing, setup, and rules were all done without rail movement. I don’t see why Germany would be any more screwed without rail movement than with it; the quality of the testing is what really determines whether they are screwed or not.

    One the other hand, single-round combat could really make the dice much more important that we are used to.


  • Customizer

    O.K. we’ll see how it plays out.

    But don’t say you weren’t warned.



  • I think it’ll be o.k. It doesn’t look like France has very little artillery to start off with so they won’t be making sweeps into the Ruhr or Alsace right out of the gates and Germany will have a bigger economy than France. Plus when Russia gets out of the game, Germany will have all the reinforcements coming in from the east.


  • Customizer

    Maybe something like:

    After all combat is concluded, any units still in your capital may be moved by rail to any area you or your Allies control.

    Perhaps also:

    Any units (after combat) may be railed BACK to the capital to replenish the reserve. You cannot abandon areas.

    So, you can choose to keep units in the capital as a “mobile reserve”.

    This is before placement of new units.

    And consider this:

    A large German army finally marches through the streets of Moscow having secured victory on the Eastern Front. Fine.

    It now takes this army SEVEN TURNS to march all the way to the Western Front, by which time they find themselves confronted by a large American army idly sampling the fleshpots of gay Paris. They’ll be lucky if they don’t find them hanging out in Berlin.

    GERMANY

    NEEDS

    TRAINS

    http://members.kos.net/sdgagnon/mil.html

    GermanyNeedsTrains.PNG



  • In the absence of rails I intend to buy transports (at least one on G1). Transports provide flexibility. If the western Allies goof, you hit them. If the Russians goof, you hit them. If neither of them goof, you grab Norway, Sweden, and Finland for their resources.


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