Sealion with Italy UK scrambling



  • Situation:  The Italian navy is parked off of Uk in the the straits.  It consists of a battleship, carrrier, 2 cruisers and 3 destroyers.  UK navy destroyed by Luftwaffe.  Germany builds transports, 10, and lauches sealion with only transports to the same SZ as Italians.  UK scrambles 3 fighter and….

    1)  Do the Italians help in the amphibious assualt by defending the transports from a scramble or because the Germans have no fleet all the transports would die?

    Thanks.



  • The transports die, multiple nations only fight together when defending



  • Pray the Italians were smart enough to SBR the UK’s AB before that happens, otherwise theres a bunch of dead Krauts in the English Channel.



  • So Germany, or in any case any nation would have to defend its own transports with its own fleet.  Interesting. Â

    Reality would indicate that Allied ships could support an amphibious landing by the other nation and would.  In this case the Germans must of landed down the coast to where the Italians parked their navy to support it and were destroyed by UK fighter who knew exactly where the Germans were landing.  Larry slipped up there on the rules. Â



  • @Spendo02:

    Pray the Italians were smart enough to SBR the UK’s AB before that happens, otherwise theres a bunch of dead Krauts in the English Channel.Â

    That is a good strategy though!  Thanks.



  • @manincellv:

    So Germany, or in any case any nation would have to defend its own transports with its own fleet. � Interesting. �

    Reality would indicate that Allied ships could support an amphibious landing by the other nation and would. � In this case the Germans must of landed down the coast to where the Italians parked their navy to support it and were destroyed by UK fighter who knew exactly where the Germans were landing. � Larry slipped up there on the rules. �

    Allied and Axis units DEFEND together (provided the nations in question are at war with the attacker).  In the special case of Amphib’s, you are still considered the aggressor even though it “feels” like you’re defending your landing, so in the case mentioned by the OP, those Italian ships just sit and watch the Krauts sink.



  • this is why russia never will get sardinia. as long as you have an airfield with scrambling fighters, the will block the landing



  • STOP! Not all attacking transports will die: the attacker has still the option to retreat, so if you attack with only transports and the defender chooses to scramble, you fight a normal round of combat and the defender roll a dice for every defending air unit. After this round of combat, the attacker can choose to retreat with the transports that survived to the combat.



  • ^^ true story



  • @Sergente:

    STOP! Not all attacking transports will die: the attacker has still the option to retreat, so if you attack with only transports and the defender chooses to scramble, you fight a normal round of combat and the defender roll a dice for every defending air unit. After this round of combat, the attacker can choose to retreat with the transports that survived to the combat.

    This is wrong.
    Transports don’t have hit points. A single hit will kill all the undefended transports. You can retreat them only in the event that all the scrambling fighters missed their first round.



  • @Noll:

    @Sergente:

    STOP! Not all attacking transports will die: the attacker has still the option to retreat, so if you attack with only transports and the defender chooses to scramble, you fight a normal round of combat and the defender roll a dice for every defending air unit. After this round of combat, the attacker can choose to retreat with the transports that survived to the combat.

    This is wrong.
    Transports don’t have hit points. A single hit will kill all the undefended transports. You can retreat them only in the event that all the scrambling fighters missed their first round.

    sigh, time to get the rulebook again…

    Defenseless Transports
    In a sea battle, if the defender has only
    transports remaining and the attacker
    still has units capable of attacking, the
    defending transports are all destroyed,
    along with their cargo. You don�t
    have to continue rolling dice until all
    the transports receive hits. This will
    speed up combats. This also occurs
    if the only combat units remaining
    can�t hit each other. For example,
    if the defender has only transports
    and submarines remaining, and the
    attacker has only air units remaining,
    the air units and submarines can�t
    hit each other, so the transports are
    defenseless. At this point, defenseless
    transports are all destroyed, along with
    their cargo. Attacking transports are
    not usually considered defenseless,
    since they generally have the option
    of retreating. If they can�t retreat, they
    are treated the same as defending
    transports. Destroying defenseless
    transports in this way still counts as
    combat for the purpose of offshore
    bombardment and similar rules.

    especially look at the part

    Attacking transports are
    not usually considered defenseless,
    since they generally have the option
    of retreating. If they can�t retreat, they
    are treated the same as defending
    transports. Destroying defenseless
    transports in this way still counts as
    combat for the purpose of offshore
    bombardment and similar rules.

    couple this with

    chosen Last: Transports can be chosen as casualties only if there are no other eligible units. Normally this will occur when
    only transports are left, but it can also occur under other circumstances. For example, air units attacking transports and
    submarines will hit the transports because they can�t hit the submarines without a friendly destroyer present.

    So tranport do have “hitpoints” it is just they can be considered defenceless in certain circumstances…

    we all agree now?


  • Customizer

    Apparently I have been playing it wrong as well. I thought that if you tried an amphibious assault and only had your transports and the defender scrambled planes, then the transports automatically retreated since they have no attack value.
    So, in the above example, Germany comes in with the 10 transports and the UK scrambles 3 fighters. The UK fighters would get 3 rolls @ 4 BEFORE the transports could retreat?
    Let’s say the UK fighters roll a 2, 3 and 5. That’s 2 hits. So 2 German transports are sunk (with their cargo) and the remaining 8 transports then can retreat. Is this correct?



  • thats how I read it.



  • @Noll:

    @Sergente:

    STOP! Not all attacking transports will die: the attacker has still the option to retreat, so if you attack with only transports and the defender chooses to scramble, you fight a normal round of combat and the defender roll a dice for every defending air unit. After this round of combat, the attacker can choose to retreat with the transports that survived to the combat.

    This is wrong.
    Transports don’t have hit points. A single hit will kill all the undefended transports. You can retreat them only in the event that all the scrambling fighters missed their first round.

    Agree with kreuzfeld; the transports WOULD all die if they could not retreat, but that doesn’t sound like that is the case.



  • @manincellv:

    Situation:  The Italian navy is parked off of Uk in the the straits.  It consists of a battleship, carrrier, 2 cruisers and 3 destroyers.  UK navy destroyed by Luftwaffe.  Germany builds transports, 10, and lauches sealion with only transports to the same SZ as Italians.  UK scrambles 3 fighter and….

    1)  Do the Italians help in the amphibious assualt by defending the transports from a scramble or because the Germans have no fleet all the transports would die?

    Thanks.

    So to answer the question clearly neither of those happens. If the transports can retreat (which it sounds like they can since there are 10 of them which makes me think they didn’t start in the channel), they weather one round of combat and can then retreat.

    Usually if this were to happen in a casual game I would let the player undo the move, since there is no way they would have done the move if they had known the rule.



  • In the OP’s case describing their Sea Lion, those TT will have to retreat outside of the protection of that Italian Navy.

    This doesn’t spell complete doom for them, but from my experience if you have to retreat TT, chances are those same scrambling aircraft will target them in a counter attack as you’ve lost what ships you had in attempting to make a landing in the first place.

    Granted in this situation its entirely possible to retreat those TT back to SZ112 which could at least have a scramble and potentially ships placed there that were purchased to defend those TT you retreated.  I wouldn’t bank on that though, because if you are all-in on a Sea Lion you’d have to expect the purchase to consist of units to defend Berlin from Russia as you’d be relying on the Italian Navy to defend them in SZ110.

    The more interesting question is why Sea Lion is occurring at all if Italy has a the Navy as described.  Italy cannot even build a CV until I2, meaning the earliest it can even arrive in SZ110 is I4 (I2 to place, I3 to move to Gib, I4 to get in position).  That means Germany is doing a G5 Sea Lion?  What happened in Russia to make this a consideration at this point in the game?  Did Germany really sit on 10 TT for multiple rounds and not get attacked by the UK for being in SZ112 or not get attacked in SZ113 by the Russians for 2 rounds?

    Food for thought anyways.



  • @Spendo02:

    In the OP’s case describing their Sea Lion, those TT will have to retreat outside of the protection of that Italian Navy. Â

    This doesn’t spell complete doom for them, but from my experience if you have to retreat TT, chances are those same scrambling aircraft will target them in a counter attack as you’ve lost what ships you had in attempting to make a landing in the first place.

    Granted in this situation its entirely possible to retreat those TT back to SZ112 which could at least have a scramble and potentially ships placed there that were purchased to defend those TT you retreated.  I wouldn’t bank on that though, because if you are all-in on a Sea Lion you’d have to expect the purchase to consist of units to defend Berlin from Russia as you’d be relying on the Italian Navy to defend them in SZ110.

    The more interesting question is why Sea Lion is occurring at all if Italy has a the Navy as described.  Italy cannot even build a CV until I2, meaning the earliest it can even arrive in SZ110 is I4 (I2 to place, I3 to move to Gib, I4 to get in position).  That means Germany is doing a G5 Sea Lion?  What happened in Russia to make this a consideration at this point in the game?  Did Germany really sit on 10 TT for multiple rounds and not get attacked by the UK for being in SZ112 or not get attacked in SZ113 by the Russians for 2 rounds?

    Food for thought anyways.

    It’s happened to me before where Germany’s small force to normandy is killed, while leaving 0 or 1 french, the italian tank grabs it, which makes a carrier buy there on I2 pretty easy.



  • FAQ (Bottom of page 2, top of 3) is pretty clear on this http://www.wizards.com/AvalonHill/rules/AAEurope1940_2ndEdition_FAQ.pdf


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