German Opening Against UK Navy



  • Here’s what I’ve been doing for most of my games as Germany.

    G1:
    Purchase:
    1 AC, 1 DD, 1 SS

    Moves:
    2 fight, 2 tacs, 2 ss to SZ 111 (79.8% chance victory w/scramble)
    2 fight, 2 tacs, 2 strat bombers, 2 subs to SZ 110 (78.5% chance victory w/scramble)
    1 ss to sz 106

    I leave the BB in sz 112 with the cruiser and transport, and then place my AC, DD, and SS there at then end of my turn for a large combined fleet.

    This is my setup for Barbarossa, since after the first turn, I can focus 100% on moving into Russia.

    I am just wondering if this strategy is the best way to damage the UK fleet and lock them down for a while. To me it seems that with both of their main navies destroyed, they only have a few destroyers in the Atlantic and cannot possibly hope to be aggressive near Europe until at least turn 5 or 6.


  • TripleA

    Why do people save the battleship?

    I can understand if you bought carrier and 2 transport. baltic states stack then hit novgorod…

    I rarely regret throwing a battleship in sz 110 or sz 111, I prefer to lose the bship over air units if they 3 hit.
    ~

    I might full scramble. Most of the time you go fighter for fighter with Germany.
    ~
    Your odds for 110 is more like 75%. If you score 4 hits uk will not save cruisers or bships. you can’t take subs as losses vs fighters. So yeah… this is what makes it totally worth it to full scramble round 1 from an allies view… usually trading a fighter for a fighter, with 25% chance to defend.

    Not sure what the odds are for uk losing more air than germany. But it is just 30 ipc. When I don’t see a battleship in sz110… I full scramble depending on my mood.



  • that is alot of ships if you are doing barbarossa, why not skip the ships and buy 10 infs instead, while throwing your battleship into the attack, those 10 extra inf prolly frees up enough money so you can buy stuff for atlantic later. in a barbarossa, I would freely exchange my german ships, might at some point later buy an IC + airfield in yugoslavia, to combat in the meds, it is a nice place to buy ss.


  • Customizer

    I will usually send my German BB to SZ 111 along with aircraft. I will also sacrifice the BB to save planes for later.
    Also, I send subs after both SZ 106 and SZ 109 so I can kill those British transports. I just can’t stand leaving Britain with any transports to make landings. What often happens is if the Transport in SZ 109 is left, they plop a couple of infantry down on Holland/Belgium, which is usually left empty from attacking Normandy and France. It may only be a small force that is easily destroyed, but it irritates me having to do that, plus possibly losing more German land units.
    I will also usually send 1 or 2 subs down to deal with the Cruiser in SZ 91 to help out my buddy Italy. You guys don’t do that? Italy has a hard enough time with the UK fleet in the Med plus RAF, it just seems like any little bit will help. Plus, I use planes to kill the French navy in SZ 93.
    As for SZ 110, I often leave it alone. Yes, it does leave a UK BB & CA plus the French CA, but it frees up planes for other duties like the French fleet in SZ 93 and perhaps even a plane or two in the Paris battle. I usually find that I will have enough planes and subs around to deal with the SZ 110 ships on round 2, unless the UK moves them out of range. Usually, our UK player will place them in SZ 109 to protect newly purchased transports. So while it may be somewhat costly in planes and subs, I can usually get rid of all British and French ships along with the fighters based on Great Britain (because this time they scramble) by G2.



  • Cow I know he said he’s planning Barbarossa, but with his purchase he is leaving the option of Sea lion on the table (UK doesn’t know which way he’s going). With this in mind if he attacks the RN’s big guns (has 75+ odds w/scramble), as UK you would also risk the RAF in the sz110 battle? UK will be more cautious IMO.

    Kreuzfeld Germany buying 10 inf/art round 1 is defiantly telegraphing Barbarossa. The Navy build will force the UK to go defensive IMO. It is a lot of navy for the Germans, but the AC has become nearly standard G1, subs are always a good buy to threaten, and the dd will protect the fleet once it moves out, or can go after the Russian subs.

    I think taking the battleship into battle is a personal preference (some just don’t like losing that ship in the early rounds). I agree that taking it in insures no UK scrambles, but as the Germans maybe he wants them to scramble to get a shot at taking out both the RN and the RAF in a blood bath. Yeah I’ve seen it go horribly wrong for Germany (who hasn’t), but it is more likely to put the UK in a place she doesn’t want to be.

    In the first round of the sz110 battle (RAF scrambles) if the UK warships hit, the subs take the casualties, and yea the RAF will most likely inflict some damage rd1. If the UK takes fleet as casualties as you said (all ships killed), then it is up to the Luftwaffe to decide if the battle goes to rd2 (mission accomplished, just need to see how greedy the Germans are). If I have 3 UK ftrs caught, and I still have great odds then on we go. I know the odds calculators can be deceiving, but the average IPC losses tell you that when it’s done the Germans should have the equivalent of a couple air units left. Not great, but with the RN and RAF in shambles it’s not the end of the world. If you don’t Sea lion them (which you probably should), then you will have control of the Atlantic and can move your beefed up German fleet to sz 109 for convoy for a turn or two while the UK tries to pick up the pieces. With England threatened, the Italians may have been spared (but maybe not).



  • If you’re really planning barb why not save your cash instead of buying navy?

    You can still threaten barb just by having the cash and make a huge navy purchase g2.



  • ya, you could save the money, its costs effectivly 10 IPC towards barbarossa (seeing as you have to buy mechs, rather than infs) I am just thinking that this heavy fleetbuy will cost you alot more in russia than a 10 inf buy will cost you in the atlantic. If the plan is barbarossa with moscow assault, rater than middle east, then buying 7 art the first turn might be the buy.

    if going for cauc/middle east, then those 10 infs, will free up about 6-7 fighters from russia around turn 5 (when you stack in rostow, you need to be strong enough to prevent russia from killing your stack, when ussr cant kill you, they have to retreat, and you get the middle east), to the atlantic, making your maximum counterattack against the british fleets, you will not be strong enough to kill the combined fleet if they land in one place, but you should be strong enough to prevent them from landing in 2 places.

    this holds even more true if you are going for an as late war as possible, if you dont declare war, then us fleet cannot move until us4, and land in us5/us6. you might even be in moscow by then. ofcourse japan is screwed, so us can use 100% against europe, since anzak + india have collected too damn much from the dutch indies by then, unless they expected a japanse attack, and tried to preserve their transports, you might even threaten a j3 crush, to get them to declare war on you on round 2, in that case, you can let US be in peace until round4.



  • I have saved the bulk of the German income until G2, that works very well IMO. It keeps you very flexible, doesn’t tip your hand, and the allies will be scratching their heads. In KillOFzee original post he laid out his purchases though, so unless he is re-vamping that, this is a mute point.

    From what I gathered his plan is to destroy the main fleet of the Royal Navy (battleships), and threaten the UK directly w/German navy builds. He’s looking for UK to either turtle up, or be very bold (scramble, which could be devastating to them) and maybe help out Italy along the way. He’s trying to limit the capabilities of the UK for the first few turns, and maybe do some convoy or SBR if the opportunity arises. He wants to proceed from there with a full scale ground attack to the east, while keeping his options open for Sea lion if UK does something stupid.

    I know that is a lot of navy for the Germans to buy right off the bat, but it can be used to land in the Russian north, move out into the Atlantic temporarily, even send some ships to the Med if he wants. I say if your going to buy navy for the Germans, then don’t pussyfoot around. If your going to buy an AC, then its been my experience you need a dd to help protect the German fleet so it can move out.

    Don’t get me wrong, I have went over board w/navy builds for the Germans that has cost me games (stalls your Barbarossa). You can’t continue down that path (other then a few subs), but it will force the allies to over purchase navy for the Europe side because of your capabilities. It can work as a distraction, or get the US to split income between E & P (a US spiting income evenly generally means it is weak on both sides).

    Some times I throw the German battleship into one of the sea battles G1 just so I’m not tempted to buy fleet. It all depends on the game plan for your side, and your knowing your opponents.


  • '16 '15 '10

    Re. the OP, 20% risk of failure in either major naval battle is a bad risk.  If you’re going to hit 110/111 you should commit every unit at your disposal to maximize your odds of success.

    Re. not spending on G1, it’s a great idea and has potential.  Some of the reasons players don’t always do it might include:

    1. for Sealion, it rules out a G2 Scotland landing (idk if this is a legit argument since a good Allied player will do his best to deny the Scotland landing but there you have it).  It also negates various German G2 naval moves like taking Gibraltar.
    2. for Barbarossa, G1 is the only time you can buy artillery that makes it in time for a G6 Moscow attack.  This is not necessarily fatal, especially if your plan is flexible on when to go for Moscow.


  • I have tried the 10 inf buy myself once, but I noticed that it severely reduced my flexibility. I bought 9 transports the second turn, but since I had no navy after sending my battleship to 111, it made landing in England a for sure loss of those transports once US entered the war (they bought several bombers in preparation for sea-lion).

    @WILD:

    From what I gathered his plan is to destroy the main fleet of the Royal Navy (battleships), and threaten the UK directly w/German navy builds. He’s looking for UK to either turtle up, or be very bold (scramble, which could be devastating to them) and maybe help out Italy along the way. He’s trying to limit the capabilities of the UK for the first few turns, and maybe do some convoy or SBR if the opportunity arises. He wants to proceed from there with a full scale ground attack to the east, while keeping his options open for Sea lion if UK does something stupid.

    I know that is a lot of navy for the Germans to buy right off the bat, but it can be used to land in the Russian north, move out into the Atlantic temporarily, even send some ships to the Med if he wants. I say if your going to buy navy for the Germans, then don’t pussyfoot around. If your going to buy an AC, then its been my experience you need a dd to help protect the German fleet so it can move out.

    Don’t get me wrong, I have went over board w/navy builds for the Germans that has cost me games (stalls your Barbarossa). You can’t continue down that path (other then a few subs), but it will force the allies to over purchase navy for the Europe side because of your capabilities. It can work as a distraction, or get the US to split income between E & P (a US spiting income evenly generally means it is weak on both sides).

    This is exactly what my strategy entails. If the UK does scramble, then you have a much easier time with sea-lion, since you can do an easy land in Scotland on G3 (after convoy disrupting on G2 for 8 IPCS) and then attack on G4. Plus, in the battle for London, I would gladly exchange some of my German air power for the UK’s, as that is their only real saving grace.

    If I don’t intend on doing Sea-Lion, I can easily convoy and SBR for two-three turns, which for me has always helped out Italy since England still has to prepare for sea-lion, leaving little money for South Africa or any extra planes to go to the Med.

    @knp7765:

    Also, I send subs after both SZ 106 and SZ 109 so I can kill those British transports. I just can’t stand leaving Britain with any transports to make landings. What often happens is if the Transport in SZ 109 is left, they plop a couple of infantry down on Holland/Belgium, which is usually left empty from attacking Normandy and France. It may only be a small force that is easily destroyed, but it irritates me having to do that, plus possibly losing more German land units.

    Since most of my planes have to land in Holland/Belgium, this is not a problem. I just move some AA from West Germany there to prevent losing any planes in case UK suicides.


  • 2017 '16 '13 '12

    A recent strategy I used is to spare 110, but attack 109, 106 and 111 really strong (using battleship in 111). This is combined with an AC/DD/Sub buy. Second turn purchases was 2 bombers, all infantry and maybe a sub.

    Results: 111 scrambled, lost 1 sub / 1 damage to battleship. There were no losses in 106 / 109 so 2 subs convoy raided the UK on their turn.  The UK was forced to pull its fleet away and leave Italy alone. The German air force is still intact (no losses in first turns or subsequent turns). The first real threat of landing came on turn 6, with US investing considerable amounts in Atlantic. The Germans let the Russian declare war on them after reinforcing Italy’s attach on I3.

    After 6 turns, Axis are pulling 160 IPC per turn and the Allies are at 169. Japan wiped out China completely and is about to take India. The money Island are somewhat contested but largely controlled by Japan. There is a US fleet that slows down Japan’s plans but I think Japan will ultimately prevail against it without too much disrupting Japan’s expansion. The US would need to invest a lot more than half their IPCs at this point to pin down Japan.

    Germans are camping in front of Moscow since the beginning of turn 6 and laying siege. Soviet Union’s collected income on turn 6 was 21, will be about 10-12 on turn 7. Germans already have Leningrad and will take Stalingrad on turn 8 (one of the last territory that will fall outside of the capital).

    Allies’s hopes reside into an attack in Western Europe lead by UK and US. Germany’s airforce (all initial planes + 2 bombers) + some remnants of Navy severely limits the Allies’s strategic options. Strong infantry positions plus planes mount a good defense and counterstrike capability (when combined with submarines).

    Most of this has been accomplished with little fighting. The threat of a strong airforce / navy + huge infantry stack pushing into Russia did most of the work.



  • I guess my preference towards 10 inf has to do with my opponents. They will usually allow a 30-40% shot at london, no matter what I buy the first turn (seeing as this gives me a 60-70% of losing the game). They will build enough fleet to stand against my fleet, and when they have enough they will start to land. the problem with having a german fleet at that point is that the fleet does nothing, but sitting watching, waiting to get killed. If I can get buy 10 inf round one and “save” 5-7 fighters/tacs from the russian front, to contest their landing. I will get more combatstrength on the sea than I will from my fleet. If I have my fleet, the US and its 10ish subs will make sure there is no point in bringing the fleet to the battle. It is more expesive for the allied to stand against 5-7 more planes, than it is to stand against the AC+BB+2 subs+whatever else. This is espeically true since I will either lose 1-2 extra planes in round 1 to kill the BB outside scotland, or not be able to hit it at all. My current working plan on how to defend with germany is based on planes, not on fleet. It is based on having enough planes to make sure the allied cannot split their fleet, having enough planes to be able to put them defensively in capitols to make it impossible to land there. and to have enough landunits that combined with planes, I am able to kill a stack compromising of the us landingforce + uk landingforce + all uk planes. That way I can make it costly for him to invade. This airforce should be at least the 12 planes one start with, then in round 3-4 start builing planes, MY last game I had more than 20 planes in round 6-7 ish.

    there is 2 things you get from having a fleet imo, 1. uk will turtle more, 2. easier to retake norway.  I am not completly sure I got it the right way, but that is why we have forums 😄

    The players I play against NEVER allow me to hit a big stack, unless they think the odds of me winning the fight is less than the odds of me winning the game.

    and yea, our turns take ALOT of time 😄


  • TripleA

    I have had so/so experience with full scramble sz 110 and sz 111 with uk round 1 when germany hold back his battleship.

    Trading fighter for fighter is not so bad. London will still be fine. I pull the egypt fleet to gibraltar so the italians have to hit that instead of bomb london with germany.

    Plus you forget he sent 1 sub vs 1 destroyer. Your canada transport should live most of the time (draw = transport alive yay). So you automatically would want to shove the 1 inf 1 armor on london.

    It is a gamble for both players is what I am saying.


  • '16 '15 '10

    I have had so/so experience with full scramble sz 110 and sz 111 with uk round 1 when germany hold back his battleship.

    I would think fighter for fighter is statistically below the mean.  In 110, the average outcome with that deployment should be clearing with 2 bmb remaining, which means that scrambling results in an average trade of 3 fig for 2 fig 2 tac.  In 111, it’s about 50/50 whether the extra scrambled fig will result in 1 or 2 German fig casualties, considering that the total UK defense punch over 2 rounds (when Germans get 3 hits the 1st round and 2 hits the 2nd) is 21–midway between 3 and 4 hits total.

    So in my view the odds favor a scramble, though any scramble call involves substantial risk.


  • TripleA

    Thank you for analyzing that statement for me. Odds favor a scramble, but my experience with it is okay. My decision depends on my mood and what I feel like doing. 🙂

    When I am germany I throw that battleship. I don’t want to lose fighters, I will lose a battleship.  In which case the uk scramble odds are on average less than 1 fighter for 1 fighter… the battleship UK gets to kill anyway. So yeah I like that better.


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