• I don’t think they were, that’s why.  Yes they felt the Sith were returning, but didn’t necessarily suspect senators.
    Wasn’t one of Sidious’ special force powers of the dark side some kind of cloaking and mind control?  I think a bigger Star Wars fan than me told me that years ago….  I’ll let you guys tell me where I’m wrong


  • @Gamerman01:

    I really like that answer

    I do have one question - wasn’t Windu really worried about what would happen if he had privately killed Palpatine with pretty much no witnesses?  Didn’t everything he believed in, scream against an execution like that?  Didn’t he hope for a trial?Â

    (I don’t remember what he was saying while he had Palpatine on his back gasping for air)

    The answer I’d give would be in three parts.  First, there actually was a witness present (Anakin).  Second, towards the tail end of his foolishly long editorial comments, Windu himself states that he’s comes to the conclusion that Palpatine is too dangerous to be left alive (a conclusion which, frankly, he should have reached a lot sooner).  Third, I seriously doubt that the Jedi Code of Fair Fighting (or whatever they use) says anything along the lines of: “If, in the course of mortal combat with a dangerous enemy who is clearly trying to kill him and who is even using an illegitimate weapon like force lighting against him, a Jedi who is fighting for his life manages to overpower his adversary while scrupulously respecting the rules of fair play, he shall immediately cease combat rather than killing the said adversary.”  I don’t think the Jedi would have lasted very long as the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy, let alone for a thousand generations, under those rules of engagements.

  • '16 '15 '10

    @Gamerman01:

    I don’t think they were, that’s why.  Yes they felt the Sith were returning, but didn’t necessarily suspect senators.
    Wasn’t one of Sidious’ special force powers of the dark side some kind of cloaking and mind control?  I think a bigger Star Wars fan than me told me that years ago….  I’ll let you guys tell me where I’m wrong

    Count Dooku informs Obi-Wan in “Attack of Clones” that the Sith Lord has control of the Senate, but I guess Obi-Wan presumed he was being deceived.

    If you haven’t yet seen the “Clone Wars” show on Netflix (set b/w the events of Eps 2 and 3), it has its moments.  Ironically, George Lucas’ vision for the prequels (of fleshed-out, morally ambiguous characters) may have been best realized in this animated format.

    Particularly the Season 5 arc involving Darth Maul and Deathwatch (SO5E01, S05E14-16) and the Season 6 arc involving Order 66 (S06E01-04) are worth checking out.


  • Thanks for the answer, Marc, but I didn’t like it so much……

    Sure, volatile untrustworthy Anakin was a witness.  Big help.

    Yes Windu said he’s too dangerous to be left alive, but his actions showed that he didn’t really believe what he was saying.  
    Jedi Code of fair fighting?  I, with all due respect, think that point is kind of ridiculous.  This wasn’t just any situation.  It was the long time leader of the known universe.  You can’t just kill him with only Anakin Skywalker, who is also a long time Jedi, as the only witness.  (Although it came to the point where he had to, in self defense)

    I think Windu was torn apart and had a hard time thinking the whole time.  His world was rocked.  And he was trying to kill him toward the end, he had finally made up his mind, when he was betrayed by Anakin.  And I HATE the blind trust he gave Anakin there despite all the reasons he had to NOT trust him, and I HATE that Yoda is so impotent in all the first 3 episodes, with all the reverence he receives.  Can we agree that if you think very much, a lot of stuff falls apart?

    How could Yoda EVER prevent the Sith from taking over when he seems to be totally unable to fight offensively??  How could Luke ever prevail without going into crazy attack mode?  Midiclorians?  Force?  You’ve got to be kidding me.  I enjoy Star Wars a lot when I just go with it and don’t think too hard, because it’s all completely ridiculous when you think about it.  Everyone knows English all over the galaxies?  You can breathe air on any planet without aid, including Mustafar?  lol the list could go on and on


  • As far as not killing Sidious fast enough - um, that works both ways.  How about the execution in Episode II?  Doesn’t Dooku know the full abilities of Obi-Wan and company?  He should.  How does that seriously fail?  Obviously, the answer to all of these questions is, the writer of fiction has total control and makes whatever happen they want to happen to try and tell a good story.  Why do the bad guys always give a big speech and not just kill the good guy?  Makes me want to stop watching movies  :lol:

  • '16 '15 '10

    @Gamerman01:

    As far as not killing Sidious fast enough - um, that works both ways.  How about the execution in Episode II?  Doesn’t Dooku know the full abilities of Obi-Wan and company?  He should.  How does that seriously fail?  Obviously, the answer to all of these questions is, the writer of fiction has total control and makes whatever happen they want to happen to try and tell a good story.  Why do the bad guys always give a big speech and not just kill the good guy?  Makes me want to stop watching movies  :lol:

    In the movie it seems like Sidious is actually in control of the situation and is using it to force Skywalker to betray the Jedi and become his apprentice.  This would be consistent with Sidious being powerful enough to deceive Yoda and Windu for years.

    On the other hand Sidious seems to have been injured during the confrontation with Windu.  It’s not clear whether Sidious’ appearance had already been twisted by the dark side prior to the the battle with Windu (meaning his appearance as Palpatine was artifice) or if the injuries from the battle with Windu disfigured him.


  • @Gamerman01:

    Can we agree that if you think very much, a lot of stuff falls apart?

    Certainly, and movies are (or can be) particularly vulnerable to over-analysis. I admit that I’m prone to over-analyzing, but I’m also perfectly capable of suspending disbelief and overlooking plot holes in a film.  Case in point: I’ve seen about a dozen times the movie Earth vs. the Flying Saucers and I always find it fun to watch even though it has more ridiculous elements per minute than just about any other non-comedy film I’ve ever seen.  On the other hand, I get highly annoyed when a movie I’m watching gives me the impression that the director and the screenwriter want their film to be taken seriously but don’t seem to feel that they have to put much effort into taking their audience seriously.

    What fundamentally disappointed me about the Windu / Palpatine confrontation wasn’t the picky stuff I was criticizing in my above posts.  It was the fact that the scene handled such a pivotal moment of the whole Star Wars saga – the moment when Anakin falls – in a way that was (in my opinion) so clumsy and so transparently contrived.  It was a scene that deserved the highest level of writing of any scene in any Star Wars film, a scene that deserved to be both emotionally wrenching and utterly convincing…but instead of coming across as a first-rate moment of epic tragedy, in my opinion (and this is just my opinion) it came across as basically a connect-the-dots contrivance that checks off a plot point in Anakin Skywalker’s character arc.  I was disappointed – but, as I’ve said, that’s just how I personally reacted to that scene, and I think it’s perfectly valid for other audience members to have a different opinion of that scene.  My answer to your question was meant only to explain as adequately as possible my own reaction to the scene, not to be dismissive of anyone else’s alternate viewpoints.


  • @Zhukov44:

    In the movie it seems like Sidious is actually in control of the situation and is using it to force Skywalker to betray the Jedi and become his apprentice.  This would be consistent with Sidious being powerful enough to deceive Yoda and Windu for years.

    On the other hand Sidious seems to have been injured during the confrontation with Windu.  It’s not clear whether Sidious’ appearance had already been twisted by the dark side prior to the the battle with Windu (meaning his appearance as Palpatine was artifice) or if the injuries from the battle with Windu disfigured him.

    I like this post


  • I like your last response too, Marc, just didn’t want to quote the whole thing  :-)


  • @ABWorsham:

    Here is a Star Wars question: If you were Mace Windu and discovered that Palpatine was the Sith Lord, and had your choice of any three Clone War era Jedi at your side for the confrontation, who would you choose?

    Which three would you think would have the best chance to survive?


  • Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Yoda


  • @ABWorsham:

    Here is a Star Wars question: If you were Mace Windu and discovered that Palpatine was the Sith Lord, and had your choice of any three Clone War era Jedi at your side for the confrontation, who would you choose?

    Quinlan Voss, Ki Adi Mundi and Obi Wan


  • That’s right, Obi-Wan has proven himself as one of the best ever with a light saber.  If only Anakin would have cooperated vs. Dooku…

    P.S. Old Obi-Wan let Vader win!  :-D  :wink:

  • '17 '16 '15 '12

    I go with Gamer here, Mace, Obi-Wan, Anakin and Yoda should cleary have a lot of synergy, being master-padawan for the middle two and Mace being padawan of Yoda, and Yoda being Yoda and holding his own vs Sidious, as seen (but lacking killer instinct, I guess because he felt most for the philosophy of always using the force in self defence, not aggressively - having beaten the foe is one thing, but is the killer blow then aggressive, or still defence?; the same is true,a s Gamer said, for Mace, I guess, at least to a lesser extent. It was almost as he sought acceptance from the only witness he had there before committing).

    I didnt bother to check if there were martial arts specialists among the available Jedi on Corsucant (there are bound to be some who individually fight better than the mentioned three). In any case, it might not be a coincidence that both Yoda and Obi-Wan were away from Coruscant at the time (if memory serves right they were on Kashyyk and Utapau), its certainly possible Sidious manipulated it in that way (although we see that Yoda proactively says he will go to Kashyyk…still, with the attack on Kashyyk Sidious might have knbow that they send Yoda due to his special relations with the Wookies).

    Yes, Sidious was able to hide himself, withdraw his force aura. Others could, Luke could it well I remember from the EU, as could his son. Coming back to an earlier post, Snoke must either be a grandmaster of that, or have no force ability at all. We will see.

    Palpatines disfigurement I think quite clearly came from his own but reflected lightning. In any case changes should have been more stark after he revealed himself and overtly used his powers than the subtle manipulations during the CLone Wars. But I fully agree that he was likely always in full control vs Mace and needed it to look as dramatically as possible to effect the final click in Anakins already torn head. Which nicely worked. Had Windu taken Palpatine as prisoner, Anakin could have had continuous access with the hope to get the info out of Palpatine. All in all, I think the scene was ok. None of the Jedi really thought Palpatine would come at them with a red saber.

    Generally speaking, though, there would be no movies without those totally illogical, totally absurd bad guy monologues to give the hero the chance to turn the table. Its incomprehensible to me that writers dont find better solutions that still keep up suspense. Ok, sure, in some cases its pathological for baddies, they need to show their supremacy over the opponent (Blofeld comes to mind, while Goldfinger had good reasons not to kill Bond in the last second), but for bad guys without that human weakness there are not many excuses.

    I think the biggest disappointment for me was when Anakin so quickly gave in to Palpatine and killed Dooku. Yes, Anakin was conflicted and primed, but still.


  • Good stuff, enjoyed
    You lose your title as my own personal Devil’s advocate….  :-(


  • Mace, Yoda, Oppo Rancisi and Po Koon would be my Clone War Era choices, although Oppo Rancisi was already dead that this point.

    Perhaps this combination would have enough sense to not to confine themselves as a group in an entry way creating one large target.

  • '18 '17 '16 '15 Customizer

    I always had the impression that Palpatine was not defeated by Mace Windu, but rather allowed himself to be “beaten”, thereby putting himself in a vulnerable position for Anakin to sympathize with. It certainly is not beyond the realm of possibility considering how much orchestrating of events Palpatine conducted (successfully). I agree the writing is highly convenient, but I always got the impression that Palpatine’s defeat was purposeful on his part. Even after he is squirming on the floor and professing to be too weak, it is all deception because he very quickly unleashes a great deal of energy to finally blow Mace out the window.

    And for the record Mace did try to kill Palpatine, but only at the very end and was stopped by Anakin cutting his arm off or something. Yes, too little, too late. But I doubt Palpatine was in any serious danger.

    @CWO:

    What fundamentally disappointed me about the Windu / Palpatine confrontation wasn’t the picky stuff I was criticizing in my above posts.  It was the fact that the scene handled such a pivotal moment of the whole Star Wars saga – the moment when Anakin falls – in a way that was (in my opinion) so clumsy and so transparently contrived.  It was a scene that deserved the highest level of writing of any scene in any Star Wars film, a scene that deserved to be both emotionally wrenching and utterly convincing…but instead of coming across as a first-rate moment of epic tragedy, in my opinion (and this is just my opinion) it came across as basically a connect-the-dots contrivance that checks off a plot point in Anakin Skywalker’s character arc.

    Great statement. I agree entirely.


  • @ABWorsham:

    Mace, Yoda, Oppo Rancisi and Po Koon would be my Clone War Era choices, although Oppo Rancisi was already dead that this point.

    Perhaps this combination would have enough sense to not to confine themselves as a group in an entry way creating one large target.Â

    You picked Oppo, Worsham?
    Very good choice!
    He would def. be a huge help in this skirmish against Darth Sidious and would have been able to prevent the death of all Jedis who fought against the Sith Lord. ( exception: Sidious kills him first of course :-D)

    Since a few picked allready four Jedis. I also want to add one.
    Herby my four Jedis are:

    Quinlan Voss, Ki Adi Mundi, Obi Wan and Aayla Secura.

  • '17 '16 '15 '12

    I did not pick four, the question was which three Mace should pick. Its Mace + any three :)


  • You are correct.
    I am going to kick her out then. 8-)

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