Scramble vs. Carrier question


  • '13

    Can I get some feedback for a scramble scenario that occured this weekend at a Basement Game?

    GER did an anphibious landing on Novgorod.  the GER fleet consisted of a loaded carrier and a number of transports.  The declared attack had the planes from the carrier joined the anphib assault and attacked Novgorod.

    There was a single RUS fighter scrambled from Novgorod.

    Now, does the scrambled RUS fighter engage the planes from carrier before they make it to Novgorod?  Or since does the RUS fighter engage the naked carrier and transports - automatically sinking everything since the carrier is attacking with an att value of 0 vs. the figher’s defense of 4?

    What would the outcome be for this scenario?

    Thanks,

    Vold



  • I know that if the planes went to novgorod, they would fight there and NOT in the seazone. I suspect that the attacking player would have to weather 1 round of combat in the sea zone before being able to choose to retreat. I do not believe the death of the fleet is automatic.


  • '13

    also - Alpha +3 if that matters.  V


  • '13

    That’s the dilema - there is nothing to weather in the sea zone.  There are no ships in the sea zone that can attack and the fighters that were there are moving onto Novgorod - the carrier’s attack value is 0.

    so the fighter sits there until it scores 2 hits and kills everything?

    Or does the sea battle happen prior to the fighters leaving?

    Or…?



  • in that scenario, the carriers/trannys are defenseless, so, since the trannys cant retreat, they will die, the carriers can retreat after any round of combat if they choose.



  • I am fairly sure the ships can retreat if they survive the first round of combat (which it is impossible not to since the carrier takes 2 hits)

    One major difference here is that the person with the transports is ATTACKING, not defending. The attacker has the option to retreat, the defender never does.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    What’s funny, is that after retreating your carrier and transports, without the troops on the ground going into Novgorod… the planes you committed there will most likely die an untimely death.

    Hahaha 😄

    Good move by the Russians!



  • @ghr2:

    in that scenario, the carriers/trannys are defenseless, so, since the trannys cant retreat, they will die, the carriers can retreat after any round of combat if they choose.

    Why can’t they retreat? They don’t actually unload until after the sea battle, so as long as they are not all killed in the battle, they can retreat (which they won’t be, since there is only 1 plane and at least 1 attacking unit)

    Remember in the rules, attacking trannys are not “defenseless”, they are “selected last.” If the defender does not have enough hits to kill all attacking transports (AFTER all eligible combat units are destroyed, mind you), any that survive can retreat.

    Check the blue box on p. 19 of the 1st edition europe rulebook



  • its because the transports are committed to the amph no matter what happens, they cant retreat



  • they are defenseless because its only a matter of time for them to die



  • nvm, they can retreat



  • I just tried it in TripleA and there at least they can retreat. It could be wrong of course, but lets just go to the rulebook.

    (Europe 1940 First Edition)

    p. 17, under step one of “Amphibious Assaults”

    “If there are defending surface warships and/or scrambled air units, sea combat occurs…all attacking and defending sea units must participate in the battle”

    Well I am too lazy to type it all out but then read at the top of page 19, don’t forget the blue box on the bottom of page 19 if that still doesn’t convince you.



  • whatever the case, it was a smart idea for russia to scramble because it would force germany to retreat or die, and it makes the novogord defense better off since the amph did not go through



  • they can retreat after 1 round of combat, so damage the carrier and retreat if the 1 fighter hits


  • '13

    So the RUS fighter gets one round defending against the toothless Allied ships, the Allies can retreat both the Carrier and the loaded Transports after the first round of combat, and the planes all have to attack Novgorod for at least a single round (they have committed to the fight but their amphib was just called off) before they too can retreat.

    Correct?


  • '13

    Sorry - toothless Axis ships 😛



  • sounds legit



  • @Vold:

    So the RUS fighter gets one round defending against the toothless Allied ships, the Allies can retreat both the Carrier and the loaded Transports after the first round of combat, and the planes all have to attack Novgorod for at least a single round (they have committed to the fight but their amphib was just called off) before they too can retreat.

    Correct?

    The carrier and transport should retreat (they’re not required to, but they will eventually die if they don’t).  The planes are required to roll for one round of combat before they too can retreat.



  • The Carrier is not even there.

    Carriers do not accompany their planes in an attack, they move later ( not necc. to the sea zone of attack) and planes land on them during the non-combat phase.

    In this scenario the scrambled fighter destroys all the transports killing everything on them.
    Only the planes are left for the land battle.
    They then die if they can’t land during NCM but the carrier will prob. be there for them by then.



  • the carrier can be moved and take part in combat like any other sea unit.  it can absorb hits all the same, just the main reason why you would not is if you want to keep them safe for the round.



  • Guess that makes sense – but aren’t the transports still committed???

    I thought its “all in” on an amphib assault.

    They will die no matter what why let the carrier die too ??


  • TripleA

    honestly, if you let your opponent make a blunder like that… you may as well not even play. There are lots of rules to global, got to remind people.

    just think about it… he probably thought A) wtf is this scrambling shiz? B) his fighters would engage in the seazone before going to nov. Either way people don’t like global because it is too much rules to read through before you can play… most people dive in and see how it goes, from those dude’s perspective I would just say, “ok I am done with this game.”

    Axis and allies is easy to play as far as basic overall strategy goes, obviously the axis are going for capitals and stuff along the way. Even the math is easy to learn, more stuff = higher probability of more hits = stuff dies faster = less casualties.

    Then there is about 205 pages of FAQ to go through, which makes learning the game a chore.

    Give the guy a break.



  • @Darby:

    Guess that makes sense – but aren’t the transports still committed???

    I thought its “all in” on an amphib assault.

    They will die no matter what why let the carrier die too ??

    Read the section of the rulebook on page 19 of the europe rulebook on retreating. If the attacker retreats from a battle, including a sea battle, ALL attacking sea units retreat, including transports.

    The third paragraph  under land combat on page 17 covers this situation pretty well; if the transports retreated from the sea zone, they still have their cargo on board, and any other units committed to the land battle have to fight one round before being eligible to retreat.

    If you are not playing in a tournament game, I would say something to your opponent right at the end of combat move about what your scramble can do to his attack so he or she can change the move.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    The scrambled Fighter only gets one shot. Therefore it can only sink one transport, if he rolls a hit. The attacker can then choose to retreat (and does!)
    If there had been an Aircraft Carrier it could have  absorbed the one hit and spared the loss of one Transport.
    Only defending Transports are eliminated if attacked and all their escorts are sunk. Not attacking ones unless they are hit.
    The land units would not die because they cannot unload whilst the defender controls the SZ, which he does if a scrambled Fighter is present.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Gargantua:

    What’s funny, is that after retreating your carrier and transports, without the troops on the ground going into Novgorod… the planes you committed there will most likely die an untimely death.

    Hahaha 😄

    Good move by the Russians!

    Correct.  I did something similar once.  He attacked with 7 loaded transports and no defensive ships.  I scrambled 1 fighter and sunk all the loaded transports.

    In this case, since your fighter could not possibly sink the carrier in one round - the carrier (damaged or not) and all loaded transports would be allowed to retreat - or press the attack (which would be stupid, but it is their option!)


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