Axis-Leaning Neutrals - optional rule



  • Idea for an optional rule

    Axis-Leaning Neutrals

    Spain, Turkey, Portugal, and Argentina are Axis-Leaning Neutrals. They are treated as Neutral powers unless the following events occur:

    • If London falls, Spain, Portugal, and Argentina become Pro-Axis Neutrals
    • If Moscow falls, Turkey becomes a Pro-Axis Neutral

    All other rules remain in effect.

    Any feedback welcome.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '13 Moderator

    Nice thinking. Might have happened.
    If you are a fan of Sealion, however, you are giving yourself Spain’s Inf: too much of a gift in my eyes.
    Too many people on this forum think the game is Axis friendly as it is, so I suspect you will not have many fans! Sorry.
    Also not sure how friendly to the Axis Portugal was. I would say, not very.
    Has Britain’ s and its 600 year treaty even been broken yet? (History’s longest ever, I believe.@



  • I’d agree that Portugal is far more a Allies leaning neutral then it is a Axis leaning neutral.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Spain, Turkey, Portugal, and Argentina are Axis-Leaning Neutrals. They are treated as Neutral powers unless the following events occur:

    • If London falls, Spain, Portugal, and Argentina become Pro-Axis Neutrals
    • If Moscow falls, Turkey becomes a Pro-Axis Neutral

    All other rules remain in effect.

    Portugal has Angola and Mozambique as colonies

    Spain has Rio De Oro as colony.

    This opens a can of worms for UK. A successful sea-lion and this proposed rule makes the game more imbalanced toward axis than before. The requirements are not really based on what was possible.

    Franco wanted administration/control of Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia and payments from Germany ( see Shirer on this). London falling might have been the clincher, after the requirements were met.

    Turkey was not really pro-axis, but did have some factions that sided with Germany.

    Portugal hated Spain and had no desire to fight with Germany.

    Argentina should be pro axis right off the start. That should be changed.



  • Totally agree on all points.

    Argentina has been over looked in every incarnation of the game.  It seems only Europe is ever really examined in any detail.


  • Customizer

    I think this is a pretty good idea, at least for Spain and Turkey. I think it is entirely possible that Spain would have become Pro-Axis or possibly even joined the Axis outright if London would have fallen. The same might be said for Eire (Ireland), although that one really doesn’t gain anything for either side. As for Turkey, I’m not as clear on their political situation at that time, but it makes sense that if Moscow had fallen and Soviet Communism was defeated, Turkey might have become Pro-Axis.
    I agree with IL that Argentina should be a Pro-Axis neutral already.
    As for Portugal, I’m pretty sure they have been close friends with Britain for a long time. Perhaps they should even be a Pro-Allied neutral. I don’t think they would turn Pro-Axis if London fell. If anything, maybe they should start out as a Pro-Allied neutral and if London falls, they turn into a strict neutral.
    As far as the African colonies, like Angola, Mozambique and Rio de Oro, I think for this game these territories should be treated as their own countries. They should simply remain strict neutrals regardless of what the status of Portugal or Spain are turned into. We use Neutral Blocks and Africa is it’s own block and not affected by happenings in Europe. It just makes the game a little simpler.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    If I recall correctly, sometime around 1943 Portugal started allowing Britain to use the Azores as a naval base under the terms of the treaty Wittmann mentioned.  So from that point onward it was essentially an Allied-leaning neutral country, despite the fact that the Salazar government was right-wing and authoritarian.  Its neighbor Spain was essentially an Axis-leaning neutral country; it resisted German efforts (such as those connected with the planned Operation Felix) to persuade it to enter the war on the Axis side, despite the fact that it too had a right-wing, authoritarian government which included Fascist (Falange) elements.



  • Having Portugal become pro-allies after sealion would be a huge gift for the Allies.  As the game is right now, Germany can take London and then bomb Gibraltar naval base.  If Italy leaves Morocco and Algeria French, there is no place for the Americans to build naval and air bases to allow an efficient shuck to z91 and beyond.  Portugal would do the trick.  An airbase there would even give scramble cover to z104 which typically has a destroyer block.

    Having Argentina be pro-anything would also be a boost for the allies, since they could either activate or invade it and then stick an IC and naval base there to shuck troops to reinforce Australia.



  • I like the idea of Argentina being pro-axis but I agree with vance, it could be very disastrous for the allies.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Well They have to land there first with little prospects of doing that.



  • True. I can see it going both ways. If Germany/italy lands there and builds an IC, it could spell doom for the allies, but on the other hand, if the U.S. gets it, they can get troops to Australia the turn after their built assuming they have the transports. It would be interesting to try though I agree.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    If we make the change, what form of compensation for the allies? Perhaps Iraq goes strict neutral? ( not pro axis)


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    You could make a few areas -pro comintern- ? Like Afghanistan?



  • I think giving them Afghanistan sounds good. I might use this scenario in my next game. The only problem is Argentina is farther away for the axis compared to Afghanistan.



  • I still say a pro-axis Argentina is better for the ALLIES because they can take it.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    The only problem is Argentina is farther away for the axis compared to Afghanistan.

    Exactly, India is next door and UK gets free infantry without doing anything.

    Axis have little chance to land in Argentina.

    Perhaps Allies get Switzerland? Saudi Arabia?



  • Pro-axis Saudi Arabia is just another NO for USSR.



  • @Vance:

    Pro-axis Saudi Arabia is just another NO for USSR.

    ???



  • allies should not get Switzerland. They attacked allies and axis alike whenever someone entered their territory, also held prisoners from both sides.



  • Perhaps instead of capitals falling (which is pretty “nail in the coffin” sort of stuff already)
    Link it to achieved National Objectives.

    Spain might have joined the axis if it was doing well enough.
    Somewhere to set the bar would be:

    The following territories become Pro-Axis on Axis turns only if an axis power currently satisfies the conditions of a specific amount (or more) of it’s national advantages:
    Spain: Germany and Italy both satisfy the conditions of at least two National Objectives
    Sweden: Germany satisfies the conditions of at least three National Objectives
    Turkey: Germany and Italy both satisfy the conditions of at least two National Objectives
    Saudi Arabia: Germany and Italy both satisfy the conditions of one National Objective that includes a territory in the Middle East.



  • More simply put….it has been a long standing National Advantage of mine for Italy that:

    “If Italy and Germany are fulfilling the requirements of two of their National Objectives, Spain is treated as Pro-Axis on Italian and German turns”
    “If both powers fulfill the requirements of three of their National Objectives, when Spain is annexed also place an Artillery, AAA, Tank and Fighter”

    Just food for thought.


  • Customizer

    @oztea:

    More simply put….it has been a long standing National Advantage of mine for Italy that:

    “If Italy and Germany are fulfilling the requirements of two of their National Objectives, Spain is treated as Pro-Axis on Italian and German turns”
    “If both powers fulfill the requirements of three of their National Objectives, when Spain is annexed also place an Artillery, AAA, Tank and Fighter”

    Just food for thought.

    I like this idea. It seems like I read that someone also had the idea of a Minor IC in Spain if Germany and Italy fulfill a certain amount of their NOs, but I can’t remember where.

    One question: You say that Spain is Pro-Axis on Germany’s and Italy’s turns. So does it go back to being strict neutral during other players’ turns and switch back to Pro-Axis when it’s Italy or Germany’s turn again?


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Good question KNP… if I was the U.S. I would make damn -sure- it switched to pro-axis, so I could land there and be putting units into Europe EVERY Turn!!! Mwahaha!



  • It would only be Pro-Axis on German and Italian turns, to prevent the US from covering it with green army men.

    I guess the rule would be reflecting that IF the European axis was gaining a lot of traction, Franco would be a little more accommodating to the Axis. But just because the Axis is doing well wouldn’t make Spain a target for the allies unless it was annexed.

    I guess perhaps some other nations could become Pro-Allies under certain NO conditions for them……its just a little more difficult.

    The big neutral players are Spain, Turkey, Sweden and Mongolia. The first three may have been convinced to join the axis. The last one was already a communist enclave.


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