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How to counter Japanese Subs?



  • Say i park 15 Japanese subs in SZ56 (assume the US pacific fleet is gone), what can US do about it?

    Lets say it’s a KJF game, or at least it starts out that way.  Japan takes India on J2 with it’s starting fleet and starting land units from islands and the mainland, and has been buying subs since J1 (5 at a time).  What can US do to counter a mass amount of Japanese subs?  Then once the US fleet in the pacific is gone, and there are 15 Japanese subs parked in SZ56, how do you get back into the fight?  Do you just mass destroyers and pray for good dice?  What if your playing with LL dice?

    I figure once the entire starting Japanese pacific fleet combines it will be enough to take out any UK fleet in the Indian Ocean.  I should also be able to take India with just my starting units off the islands and on the mainland.  Russia has it’s hands full with Germany.

    What am i missing?  How do you counter this when trying to do a KJF strategy?



  • I don’t think I WOULD counter… I don’t think you’re going to get very far without building any Inf. You’ll probably run outta steam around J3-4 (and by then, I will have refocussed my efforts on Germany.)



  • Because the game doesn’t have a scramble mechanic, boats are dead in the water if you are behind in pieces.



  • @Sean.C:

    Say i park 15 Japanese subs in SZ56 (assume the US pacific fleet is gone), what can US do about it?

    Lets say it’s a KJF game, or at least it starts out that way.  Japan takes India on J2 with it’s starting fleet and starting land units from islands and the mainland, and has been buying subs since J1 (5 at a time).

    I have never seen a J2 conquer of India so far on any of my games and I don’t believe it to be something possible, unless both SZ37 and and the transport on SZ61 are intact.

    Otherwise for a J2 you’ll have a max of you’ll have 7 ground units, plus 7 planes plus the bombardment but that just puts severe limits on Japan’s ability to hit anything else on J1. And the UK should have something like 9 ground units, plus 2/3 fighters, plus whatever help the Russians/US can spare and from a quick glance the odds should favor the defenders, plus if Japan lose there’s no units for a follow up attack.

    What can US do to counter a mass amount of Japanese subs?  Then once the US fleet in the pacific is gone, and there are 15 Japanese subs parked in SZ56, how do you get back into the fight?  Do you just mass destroyers and pray for good dice?  What if your playing with LL dice?

    I figure once the entire starting Japanese pacific fleet combines it will be enough to take out any UK fleet in the Indian Ocean.  I should also be able to take India with just my starting units off the islands and on the mainland.  Russia has it’s hands full with Germany.

    What am i missing?  How do you counter this when trying to do a KJF strategy?

    Assuming Japan was trying to go for India and had bought 5 subs then I’d focus really on keeping the Pacific fleet distracting Japan, reinforce India and start building an Atlantic fleet with the US. If India falls on J2 then the UK will have to switch to Europe as well and with a 2nd buy of 5 subs then Japan just wasted 60 IPC on naval units that can’t be used against Russia while the Allies start going after Germany.



  • @Hobbes:

    Assuming Japan was trying to go for India and had bought 5 subs then I’d focus really on keeping the Pacific fleet distracting Japan, reinforce India and start building an Atlantic fleet with the US. If India falls on J2 then the UK will have to switch to Europe as well and with a 2nd buy of 5 subs then Japan just wasted 60 IPC on naval units that can’t be used against Russia while the Allies start going after Germany.

    I agree. If Japan wants to buy 5 subs, then I’m going KGF.



  • @Sean.C:

    Say i park 15 Japanese subs in SZ56 (assume the US pacific fleet is gone), what can US do about it?

    Also, US could mass FTRs on Western United States, save for 1-2 turns, fly the FTRs to Sz 56 and drop multiple DD, SS, and CV. But I prefer Hobbes’s idea of going KGF.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    KGF.

    Build your OWN subs to match theirs LOL…

    or

    Save your money, to inspire him to build even more subs, then KGF.

    Can you also on the other side of Panama with a destroyer? and then come through and attack?  (I don’t have the map in front of me).



  • Easiest way to counter Japanese Subs is to have Karl Stromberg tour the Pacific…then the answer becomes how do you counter Stromberg subs?



  • @Hobbes:

    I have never seen a J2 conquer of India so far on any of my games and I don’t believe it to be something possible, unless both SZ37 and and the transport on SZ61 are intact.

    Otherwise for a J2 you’ll have a max of you’ll have 7 ground units, plus 7 planes plus the bombardment but that just puts severe limits on Japan’s ability to hit anything else on J1. And the UK should have something like 9 ground units, plus 2/3 fighters, plus whatever help the Russians/US can spare and from a quick glance the odds should favor the defenders, plus if Japan lose there’s no units for a follow up attack.

    So im running the numbers here after the last game i just played as allies.  If i try to take out the Japanese units in SZ37 i will have 13 attack + first round sub attack that hits 33% of the time VS 14 defense.  It feels like if i don’t hit with the sub on the first round of combat I’m screwed.  Which is what happened to me last game when i played allied.  I ended up retreating with 1 CV, 1 CA, and 2 TRN with 2 INF from Australia back to SZ35, dropping the INF in India.  All i was able to destroy was 2 fighters, which japan easily replaced with the 2 fighters from the mainland on their J1.  So now i have the japanese fleet in SZ36 with 2BB, 2CV, 4FTR, 1CA, 2DD, 2 TRN.  Thy have 4 INF, 2 ART, 1TNK in Burma, while i have 6INF and the US FTR from Szechwan.  I can maybe get 2 FTR for defense my turn before they invade, but do i put them on my CV, or in India?  Is there any possible way you can keep the british fleet in the Indian Ocean alive?  It doesn’t seem possible.  Do i just kamakazi it on the Japanese units in SZ37 and say “screw the british fleet” and just stock up on INF and FTR’s in India?
    J2 will bring 7INF, 2ART, 1TNK.  16attack vs my 16defense?  And that’s IF japan doesn’t use it’s BB, CA, FTR, or Bomber.

    It just seems like no matter what you do, it is always going to end up being a coin flip, and i hate playing games that i end up winning or losing based on a coin flip.

    @Gargantua:

    KGF.

    Build your OWN subs to match theirs LOL…

    or

    Save your money, to inspire him to build even more subs, then KGF.

    Can you also on the other side of Panama with a destroyer? and then come through and attack?  (I don’t have the map in front of me).

    Problem, now your 2 or 3 turns behind going KGF, and Germany is knocking on russia’s door.  I have gone a pretty heavy INF defensive build with russia, and Germany looks to be knocking at my door in the next 2-3 turns.  How can you try for KJF, see japan is massing subs, and then switch to KGF?  It seems like losing those 3 turns is all the Axis need to win.  Even if subs do nothing to take territories, it doesn’t matter, Because it keeps US/UK from doing anything in the Pacific, and by the time they know any better it’s too late to switch strategy’s because Russia is about to fall and the game is over.

    Now you might be thinking “well if they buy 5 subs first turn, i will just ignore japan and go KGF first turn”, but what if the J1 build is fairly normal, with some TRN’s n such, and then wait for you to commit to a KJF, then switch to mass subs.  Sure they arn’t going to take much on the mainland other than India, but they don’t need to because Germany is going to destroy Russia.

    I just don’t see how a KJF strategy could ever work.  The moment you commit to it, Japan masses subs, and it’s game over for the allies.  At least if you go KGF you don’t have to worry about german naval units after G1.



  • @Sean.C:

    @Hobbes:

    I have never seen a J2 conquer of India so far on any of my games and I don’t believe it to be something possible, unless both SZ37 and and the transport on SZ61 are intact.

    Otherwise for a J2 you’ll have a max of you’ll have 7 ground units, plus 7 planes plus the bombardment but that just puts severe limits on Japan’s ability to hit anything else on J1. And the UK should have something like 9 ground units, plus 2/3 fighters, plus whatever help the Russians/US can spare and from a quick glance the odds should favor the defenders, plus if Japan lose there’s no units for a follow up attack.

    So im running the numbers here after the last game i just played as allies.  If i try to take out the Japanese units in SZ37 i will have 13 attack + first round sub attack that hits 33% of the time VS 14 defense.  It feels like if i don’t hit with the sub on the first round of combat I’m screwed.  Which is what happened to me last game when i played allied.  I ended up retreating with 1 CV, 1 CA, and 2 TRN with 2 INF from Australia back to SZ35, dropping the INF in India.

    According to the rules you can’t during non-combat offload units that were loaded during combat, so you couldn’t have dropped them on India.

    All i was able to destroy was 2 fighters, which japan easily replaced with the 2 fighters from the mainland on their J1.  So now i have the japanese fleet in SZ36 with 2BB, 2CV, 4FTR, 1CA, 2DD, 2 TRN.  Thy have 4 INF, 2 ART, 1TNK in Burma, while i have 6INF and the US FTR from Szechwan.  I can maybe get 2 FTR for defense my turn before they invade, but do i put them on my CV, or in India?  Is there any possible way you can keep the british fleet in the Indian Ocean alive?  It doesn’t seem possible.  Do i just kamakazi it on the Japanese units in SZ37 and say “screw the british fleet” and just stock up on INF and FTR’s in India?
    J2 will bring 7INF, 2ART, 1TNK.  16attack vs my 16defense?  And that’s IF japan doesn’t use it’s BB, CA, FTR, or Bomber.

    It just seems like no matter what you do, it is always going to end up being a coin flip, and i hate playing games that i end up winning or losing based on a coin flip.

    There’s 5 UK infantry on India/Persia/Burma, plus 3 new builds, plus 5 fighters (excluding the Russian ones) and 1 UK bomber. You can also leave the carrier behind to prevent the battleship shot.



  • @Hobbes:

    @Sean.C:

    @Hobbes:

    I have never seen a J2 conquer of India so far on any of my games and I don’t believe it to be something possible, unless both SZ37 and and the transport on SZ61 are intact.

    Otherwise for a J2 you’ll have a max of you’ll have 7 ground units, plus 7 planes plus the bombardment but that just puts severe limits on Japan’s ability to hit anything else on J1. And the UK should have something like 9 ground units, plus 2/3 fighters, plus whatever help the Russians/US can spare and from a quick glance the odds should favor the defenders, plus if Japan lose there’s no units for a follow up attack.

    So im running the numbers here after the last game i just played as allies.  If i try to take out the Japanese units in SZ37 i will have 13 attack + first round sub attack that hits 33% of the time VS 14 defense.  It feels like if i don’t hit with the sub on the first round of combat I’m screwed.  Which is what happened to me last game when i played allied.  I ended up retreating with 1 CV, 1 CA, and 2 TRN with 2 INF from Australia back to SZ35, dropping the INF in India.

    According to the rules you can’t during non-combat offload units that were loaded during combat, so you couldn’t have dropped them on India.

    Good call, now my 2INF die on the transport on J2.  I’m just going to call the game.  At this point there is virutally no way i can win in the pacific knowing what i know now about Japanese naval defense.

    @Hobbes:

    All i was able to destroy was 2 fighters, which japan easily replaced with the 2 fighters from the mainland on their J1.  So now i have the japanese fleet in SZ36 with 2BB, 2CV, 4FTR, 1CA, 2DD, 2 TRN.  Thy have 4 INF, 2 ART, 1TNK in Burma, while i have 6INF and the US FTR from Szechwan.  I can maybe get 2 FTR for defense my turn before they invade, but do i put them on my CV, or in India?  Is there any possible way you can keep the british fleet in the Indian Ocean alive?  It doesn’t seem possible.  Do i just kamakazi it on the Japanese units in SZ37 and say “screw the british fleet” and just stock up on INF and FTR’s in India?
    J2 will bring 7INF, 2ART, 1TNK.  16attack vs my 16defense?  And that’s IF japan doesn’t use it’s BB, CA, FTR, or Bomber.

    It just seems like no matter what you do, it is always going to end up being a coin flip, and i hate playing games that i end up winning or losing based on a coin flip.

    There’s 5 UK infantry on India/Persia/Burma, plus 3 new builds, plus 5 fighters (excluding the Russian ones) and 1 UK bomber. You can also leave the carrier behind to prevent the battleship shot.

    I don’t feel like giving up Africa is worth it.  I’ll just forfeit the game to my 12 y/o daughter and go KGF next game.  She will be happy.



  • @Mallery29:

    Easiest way to counter Japanese Subs is to have Karl Stromberg tour the Pacific…then the answer becomes how do you counter Stromberg subs?

    Ok…so nobody picked up or cared enough on “The Spy that Loved Me” reference…boo…  😛



  • @Mallery29:

    @Mallery29:

    Easiest way to counter Japanese Subs is to have Karl Stromberg tour the Pacific…then the answer becomes how do you counter Stromberg subs?

    Ok…so nobody picked up or cared enough on “The Spy that Loved Me” reference…boo…   😛

    If it makes you feel better, I nearly commented on it the first time you posted it.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    I didn’t give a sht…



  • @Sean.C:

    Lets say it’s a KJF game, or at least it starts out that way.� � Japan takes India on J2 with it’s starting fleet and starting land units from islands and the mainland, and has been buying subs since J1 (5 at a time).� � What can US do to counter a mass amount of Japanese subs?� � Then once the US fleet in the pacific is gone, and there are 15 Japanese subs parked in SZ56, how do you get back into the fight?� �

    How you get back in the fight after a start like that is to start a new game.

    If the US Pacific fleet is gone, and Japan has been buying 5 subs a turn on J1 through J3, and you lost India on J2, then that strange noise you’re hearing in the background would most likely be the proverbial fat lady singing.



  • @kaufschtick:

    @Sean.C:

    Lets say it’s a KJF game, or at least it starts out that way.� � Japan takes India on J2 with it’s starting fleet and starting land units from islands and the mainland, and has been buying subs since J1 (5 at a time).� � What can US do to counter a mass amount of Japanese subs?� � Then once the US fleet in the pacific is gone, and there are 15 Japanese subs parked in SZ56, how do you get back into the fight?� �

    How you get back in the fight after a start like that is to start a new game.
    If the US Pacific fleet is gone, and Japan has been buying 5 subs a turn on J1 through J3, and you lost India on J2, then that strange noise you’re hearing in the background would most likely be the proverbial fat lady singing.

    This scenario will not happen unless your players are clueless, or the dice went 100% the way of the Axis…. IL should “move” this thread to the “in your dreams” section of the msg board.



  • @Mallery29:

    @kaufschtick:

    @Sean.C:

    Lets say it’s a KJF game, or at least it starts out that way.� � Japan takes India on J2 with it’s starting fleet and starting land units from islands and the mainland, and has been buying subs since J1 (5 at a time).� � What can US do to counter a mass amount of Japanese subs?� � Then once the US fleet in the pacific is gone, and there are 15 Japanese subs parked in SZ56, how do you get back into the fight?� �

    How you get back in the fight after a start like that is to start a new game.
    If the US Pacific fleet is gone, and Japan has been buying 5 subs a turn on J1 through J3, and you lost India on J2, then that strange noise you’re hearing in the background would most likely be the proverbial fat lady singing.

    This scenario will not happen unless your players are clueless, or the dice went 100% the way of the Axis…. IL should “move” this thread to the “in your dreams” section of the msg board.

    I find the J2 conquest of India unlikely but possible. I know that if I’m playing Japan I’d sure keep an eye for such a fat target during J1. Specially if for instance there’s the SZ37 attack that goes completely unexpected and the UK is left unprepared for that scenario.
    I think the original post makes the point that certain units may seem all-powerful - the best example is when you’d have the infamous G1 8 tank buys on Revised/AA42.1 before the cost was raised to 6 IPC. The sudden appearance of a stack of 15 German tanks can scare/intimidate a lot of Allied players.
    With subs they can have the same effect but their overall efficiency has disadvantages, both in defending themselves and the friendly fleets around them. And subs usually work better when deployed 1 per SZ, since it reduces their defensive vulnerability.



  • J2 conquest would mean UK messed up big time and china did not attack or japan let them take over some 2 IPC territories.


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