New rule proposal for China.


  • Customizer

    Okay, we all know that with the current rules, Chinese forces are not allowed outside of China with the exception of Kwangtung and Burma. They can’t even attack Korea! In most games, this probably isn’t an issue because Japan often is fairly good at keeping China down. However, in some games, Japan has attention elsewhere and ends up losing the battle in China. This often results in China getting very strong in men and artillery yet they can’t do anything with them except keep Japan out of China. How frustrating is it to have a Japanese complex in Korea, 20+ men with artillery for China in Manchuria and yet you can’t touch those Japanese in Korea? Yet Japan is free to roam into Russia and take all those territories and China with all it’s men can do nothing to stop them. Well, I have an idea for that:
    It was suggested in another thread that under certain conditions, Chinese forces could leave their own borders to attack Axis forces or even help Allies defend their territories. I suggested if China controlled ALL Chinese territories, this would be permitted but others said that was too strict. Some suggested a certain amount of IPCs under Chinese control should allow them to venture outside their borders, but we couldn’t agree on the right amount. Here is my new idea:
    If Allies control the territories of Kiangsu (Shanghai), Kwangtung (Hong Kong) and the Burma Road is open, Chinese forces are allowed to leave China. If they capture any Allied territory, they liberate it just like any other Ally. If that Ally’s capital is in Axis hands, then China can take control of that territory and gain the income from it until that Ally’s capital is re-liberated. If they capture an Axis territory (eg. Korea), they get the income from that territory. Also, the Chinese fighter may now fly out to attack Axis ships, range permitting. HOWEVER: Chinese troops may still NOT be loaded onto Allied transports.
    In addition, China gets 1 Minor IC to be placed in Szechwan and are allowed to purchase Mech Inf, Tanks and Fighters. (Yes, I know Szechwan is only 1 IPC, but that seemed the best place for this IC since it is the end of the Burma Road.) Mech Inf, Tanks and Fighters MUST be placed in Szechwan and like any other Minor IC, only 3 units per turn. Infantry and Artillery still have no limits on how many are placed in a territory but can ONLY BE PLACED IN CHINESE TERRITORIES. You can not place new infantry or artillery in any territory outside of China.
    This Minor IC is subject to capture by Axis forces and if it is, the Axis may use it just as any other captured Minor IC. If the Axis capture Kiangsu or Kwangtung, China may still use it’s Minor IC in Szechwan. However, if the Burma Road is closed at any point, China may no longer use the Szechwan IC until the Burma Road is reopened. Also, If the Burma Road is closed, Any Chinese forces that are already outside of China may still operate outside of China but NO NEW CHINESE UNITS may leave China until the Burma Road is reopened.


  • Customizer

    I also thought of a further add-on to this rule:
    If Allies control Kiangsu (Shanghai), Kwangtung (Hong Kong) and the Burma Road is open, AND China has control of ALL Chinese territories for two full rounds, in addition to the ability to go outside China and the Minor IC in Szechwan, on the third round China will get the following:
    A Minor IC, Air Base and Naval Base in Kiangsu (Shanghai) with the ability to purchase Bombers, Transports, Submarines, Destroyers and Cruisers. Again, like any other Minor IC, only 3 units per turn and they must be placed in Kiangsu or the sea zone adjacent to Kiangsu. In addition to the new ability to transport their own troops, Chinese land forces may now load onto Allied transports following the same rules for transports as everyone else (1 of any land unit + 1 infantry).
    These facilities are subject to capture and use by the Axis. If China loses this IC, they can no longer build navy or bombers but they can still build Mechs, Tanks and Fighters at the Szechwan IC, provided they still control it and the Burma Road is still open.
    The Kiangsu IC can still operate even if the Burma Road is closed. If the Axis capture more than three original Chinese territories, Chinese Naval vessels are restricted to the Chinese coast for defense and Chinese land forces can no longer board Allied transports.



  • I’m not to sure about the Chinese getting an IC to build ships etc…

    I have a couple quick thoughts:

    Maybe give the Chinese a capital in Szechuan (minor IC), and if the B-road is open allow them to build units that cost 10 ipc or less inf, art, mech, AA gun, tank and flying tiger. Limit them to just 1 AA, 1 tank, and 1 tiger max on the board, but allow them to replace them if lost (they start with the flying tiger, but can replace it if it goes down). The Chinese can also buy inf and place in any Chinese territory as by normal rules for China. If the Japanese get the capital (minor IC), it remains on the board, but can’t be used by Japan (IC represents supplies sent by allies, not manufacturing). Japan would get 1/2 the Chinese income (rounded up), and the rest China keeps (to purchase inf as normal for any Chinese held tt). The part that Japan gets can be spent in Japans place units phase of that turn in the former Chinese capital (raided the allies lend lease supplies), or can be added to Japans bank (or allow to split between the two Japans choice). If the allies regain the Chinese capital (minor IC), and the B-road is re-opened then things start over, and the same events can happen. You might have to boost the Chinese starting units a bit so they don’t lose the Szechuan capital to easily (but maybe not).

    I would also look at giving the tiger +1 in attack and def, and maybe say it can’t be used in attacks unless the B-road is open (fuel supply). Read that in someone’s house rule, and it sounded cool.

    edit:
    Could even do a US lend lease. Something like in the US purchase units phase they can send up to 5 IPCs to India to hold for the Chinese. India receives it right away, but can’t send it to china until after UK’s turn (China has to wait a full turn). On the Chinese purchase units phase (following the UKs hold turn) India transfers the lend lease to China if the B-road is open for China to spend in their capital. India can’t hold more then 5 IPCs for Chinese lend lease, so if backed up the US can’t send any. The Lend lease is subject to axis intervention. When the US declares they are sending it, the Japanese player roles 1 dice. Role 1-Japan gets it (captured), 2-3 shipment was lost (return IPCs to bank), 4-6 it arrives safely. Of course if India is captured, any lend lease IPCs would also be captured. Capturing axis power get to spend the lend lease IPCs in that turns place units phase in India (captured supplies) or for ease just add it to their collect income (or allow to split between the two axis choice).

    As far as leaving China hmmm…

    If the B-road is open, and both Hong Kong, and Shanghai are in allies hands they can enter any tt that borders China (would include a handful of Russia territories, FIC, and Shan State BTW), or any Mongolian tt (if activated). Don’t want them to get deep into Russia.

    Just my 2 cents



  • I like this idea.



  • I think Chinese units should be allowed to enter any territory bordering China. This allows them to interfere in Amur, FIC, or Korea etc. But not be able to stack in Moscow or India. Only as long as China and said ally are at war with Japan.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Ok,

    So in a game that’s already TIGHTLY balanced, now you’re giving the chinese a free factory or two, the ability to replace their flying tigers, build tanks, mec, and maybe even SHIPS!?!?!

    Unacceptable.

    Half of the battle in China, is knowing you can STALL them, and don’t have to face a blitz.

    No offense but why don’t you give the Americans an extra carrier? or Germany a factory in Romania?  Or the Italians 2 extra armor in Tobruk?  Your’re doing the same thing.

    It’s different if -China- is allowed to SAVE it’s money, to build it’s own IC for $12 or $20. and it has to recover from there.



  • I wouldn’t add any additional units to the board. Tournament games or any game which something is on the line, I’m sticking with the official rules and set up for balance reasons.

    But I think in a friendly game that you want to experiment in, letting China build things other than infantry and art would be fun. I would most likely only let them into bordering territories like WILD BILL and myself suggested.

    OR even if you have an extra player who wants to play and is a complete noob let them be china without restrictions, and see how well your Japanese game handles it.

    I usually play to have fun, have a few beers with friends, and smack talk. I paid for the game I can use it as I like. Who cares if I’m wrong or if it’s not how it’s supposed to be played.



  • Let China build AA guns, even with the Burma road closed.


  • Customizer

    As far as the IC in Shanghai and the ability to build bombers and ships, this ONLY occurs when China has controlled ALL Chinese territories for 2 full rounds. They get that IC on the 3rd round provided they still control ALL Chinese territories, which has been said is not an easy thing to do for even 1 round. If the Axis take just 1 territory any time up to China’s 3rd round of “full control”, China has to start all over again.
    Also, I forgot to mention that when this does occur, China can suffer from convoy raids in Sea Zones 19, 20 and 36, just like all other countries.
    To me, this would represent China “getting their act together” since they have been able to not only push the Axis out of their country but keep them out for a fair amount of time. Also, it would require Japan to keep paying some attention to China and not simply ignore them to deal with later, like after they’ve taken India or Australia.
    Perhaps a longer period of total territory control would be better? Like 3 or 4 full rounds?
    Or, as Garg suggested, after the 2 full rounds of controlling all Chinese territories, on the 3rd round China could be allowed to purchase an IC on Shanghai and purchase the more advanced units afterwards.
    As for the IC in Szechwan, maybe that is a bit much but I wanted a place for them to be able to put tanks and fighters, so while they could get the more advanced units, they couldn’t just place them anywhere like with infantry and artillery. Perhaps instead of an actual IC there, simply state that they have to place tanks, mechs and fighters in Szechwan and move them to the front.



  • I have advocated for similar things but I find it best to keep things simple.
    I call it “The Fading Sun” and it works like this.

    If China controls all of its home territories, Kwangtung is under allied control and the Burma road is open, for 1 full round of play, then China my place a minor IC in Kiangsu and function as any other country, with Shanghai acting as their capitol city. If this happens and Japan counter-attacks and retakes Shanghai, then China loses it economy like any other country but on the following turns functions like they normally do in the game.

    Much simpler and much more balanced



  • I understand the problem and the need to fix it, however, I would caution giving China to much power. I like Glivin’s suggestion of border jumping, but I would word it like this.

    1. If the Chinese control all of their original territories at the beginning of their turn, they may move *any unit/units into any **adjacent territory during the combat, and non-combat phases of that turn. Once the movement restriction has been lifted by moving at least one Chinese unit into an adjacent territory, the restriction no longer applies for the remainder of the game.

    • The flying tiger squadron must always land on a Chinese original territory.
      ** Only friendly or hostile territories (not neutral) that are adjacent to Chinese original territories.

    I find that this is all thats needed to prevent Japan from abandoning China for riches elsewhere.

    I like Vance’s idea of the Chinese having AA Guns, however, China is already a meat grinder for Japan, and they need their air units to break through. Besides, allowing China to buy AA Guns doesn’t solve the problem of movement restrictions on them.

    I don’t like the idea of allowing China the freedom to purchase any units with the help of a factory. I feel that it might be to much power for China, and it doesn’t solve the problem of movement restrictions on them.



  • I like the idea but I think the rule should be if China controls all there own territories at the start of there turn (KISS), they can buy a IC and move units outside there boards. If the IC is captured they surrender all there $$$ and go back under the old rules.

    I think it’s very unA&A to have China under the rule they are now. Almost everyone was giving China stuff to fight with, and when in the history of the game did the Korean war happen? When does China loss it’s powerlessness and be able to invade North Korea?



  • @Young:

    I don’t like the idea of allowing China the freedom to purchase any units with the help of a factory. I feel that it might be to much power for China, and it doesn’t solve the problem of movement restrictions on them.

    I can understand the your reservations at the thought of China being able to move outside its borders and purchase units like a normal country, an over-powered China can stretch Japans ability to fight on other fronts to the breaking point. There is one major questions that I would like you to think about though, in all these scenarios that have been put forward China doesn’t get this ability unless certain conditions, and almost all of them require China to control all of its original territories, Kwangtung to be in allied hands, and the Burma road to be open, So how much of a game could possibly be left at this point? By the time these conditions are met, if they are met, I think the game would pretty much be all but over at that point right?

    I can’t see the harm of giving China the ability to fight as a normal country once Japan has been effectively beaten back from the Asian mainland essentially losing the game. I begs the additional question of what’s the point in giving China this kind of ability when the game is all but over anyway, but I think that really only showcases just how harmless of a rule this would be.



  • There are sinerios where Japan focuses on Russia, Calcutta, and the $ islands while leaving China unchecked. Although it’s not a solid strategy, Japan can be very successful this way even if the chances of gaining the required VCs in the Pacific are close to impossible. I’ve seen games where 50 Chinese infantry are trapped with no where to go, but Japan has India and the middle east, while supporting Italy with ships in the Med. Even if the game is already over because China owns all it’s original territories, why give them the knockout punch?



  • I had a game like that once and what the Chinese did was stack a big bunch of infantry in Burma to block Japan from getting troops from its base in India to southeast Asia (there were American bases in Malaya and French Indochina if I recall correctly).  Anyway, like you said, it’s game over for Japan in the Pacific if you go that way, but Egypt is toast and that makes Italy is strong enough to defend Western Europe while Germany puts everything into Russia.


  • Customizer

    The reason I came up with this idea was because of our last game of Global. Japan had put most everything into attacking the US and was successful in sinking the US Navy and taking Western US. However, other things were left untended, which included China. The Chinese not only regained all their territory, they had this huge force sitting on Manchuria. Japan had plopped a Major IC on Korea but it was somewhat lightly defended, at least compared to that massive stack of Chinese. All the Russians had headed west to deal with Germany and neither UK/India or ANZAC could get a large enough force up there to attack Korea (at this point Japan had enough naval power that they kept killing UK and ANZAC transports). The UK was able to bomb Japan silly, but simply could not muster enough invasion force to do the job.
    So, Japan was free to keep building up troops on Korea and tromp through the eastern Soviet territories with a small force and China was there with a big stack of infantry and artillery but could do nothing about it.
    In a similar game a while back, the Chinese Flying Tigers fighter was right on Shanghai with 2 or 3 undefended Japanese transports just sitting there in SZ 19. According to the current rules, the Chinese fighter can not leave Chinese borders. So those transports just got to sit there mocking me.
    In another game, the Japanese took Calcutta with only 1 tank and 1 artillery left with 20 Chinese sitting in Burma. That just doesn’t seem right to me.
    So, maybe my idea of giving China a Minor IC and the ability to build tanks, mechs, bombers, and such was going a bit far, but I still think the rules for CHina are somewhat too strict. I still think, under certain conditions, Chinese forces should be able to venture outside their own borders in a limited fashion, say ONLY on the Pacific side and ONLY on the mainland. NO transports. I think the conditions of having Shanghai and Hong Kong in Allied hands plus the Burma Road being open would be pretty good conditions for this. It’s hard to acheive, especially since Japan starts out in control of Shanghai, but not impossible. Plus, as other of you have pointed out, this would only occur if Japan totally ignored CHina. If Japan decides to get aggressive against China, this will likely never occur.



  • @knp7765:

    In another game, the Japanese took Calcutta with only 1 tank and 1 artillery left with 20 Chinese sitting in Burma. That just doesn’t seem right to me.

    Why are there Chinese infantry sitting in Burma, I thought that territory was off limits to Chinese units, unless you’re using a secondary house rule. Have I missed something in the Alpha +3 rules.

    If you want to solve those problems, simply allow China to invade Korea, and change the restrictions of the flying tiger unit by allowing it to fly across borders, but it must always land on a Chinese owned territory. As for the UK units in India, they should be on their own in my opinion.


  • Customizer

    In all the rules (OOB & Alpha) Burma and Kwangtung are the two exceptions to the Chinese border rule. Chinese forces can enter Burma and Kwangtung either to fight Axis forces and liberate those territories or as a NCM. The Flying Tiger fighter can also land in these areas.
    Also, if India is captured by the Axis, China can gain the IPCs from Burma and Kwangtung if they take them from the Axis while India is Axis controlled.
    As for India, don’t you think that China would want to liberate India if the Axis captured it? India is the leading edge of the Burma Road, China’s only supply line from the outside world. It seems to me that should be a particular exception.
    Of course, you could make a further alteration. If China liberates India from Axis control, but there are still Axis warships in SZ 39, China still does not get the Burma Road NO until SZ 39 is also cleared of Axis presence.



  • @knp7765:

    In all the rules (OOB & Alpha) Burma and Kwangtung are the two exceptions to the Chinese border rule. Chinese forces can enter Burma and Kwangtung either to fight Axis forces and liberate those territories or as a NCM. The Flying Tiger fighter can also land in these areas.
    Also, if India is captured by the Axis, China can gain the IPCs from Burma and Kwangtung if they take them from the Axis while India is Axis controlled.
    As for India, don’t you think that China would want to liberate India if the Axis captured it? India is the leading edge of the Burma Road, China’s only supply line from the outside world. It seems to me that should be a particular exception.
    Of course, you could make a further alteration. If China liberates India from Axis control, but there are still Axis warships in SZ 39, China still does not get the Burma Road NO until SZ 39 is also cleared of Axis presence.

    Thanks for that, although it is clearly obvious in the rule book under China Rules (which I just read), our groups have not been using that advantage. I think I will surprise them with a Chinese liberation into Burma when I play the Allies this weekend.



  • @Young:

    I’ve seen games where 50 Chinese infantry are trapped with no where to go, but Japan has India and the middle east, while supporting Italy with ships in the Med. Even if the game is already over because China owns all it’s original territories, why give them the knockout punch?

    I think if anything that sounds like even more of a good reason to give the Chinese to the ability to start buying IC’s and other regular units. If Japan is going to deliberately ignore China because of arbitrary movement restrictions, then they should be made to pay for it just like any other faction in A&A would if they did that. The fact that Japan can abuse the Chinese movement restrictions to such stunning effect suggests to me that this needs to be in place just to keep them honest.



  • I see it as one of a few options Japan has to be a factor… remember that Japan is surrounded by 5 different enemies, if I can ignore one of them and get away with it, I would. That said, I still think that China should be able to attack Korea.



  • @Young:

    I see it as one of a few options Japan has to be a factor… remember that Japan is surrounded by 5 different enemies, if I can ignore one of them and get away with it, I would. That said, I still think that China should be able to attack Korea.

    Perhaps that would be enough to fix, what is to me anyway, a fairly glaring problem with game mechanics. Perhaps removing all Chinese movement restrictions once China has recaptured all its original territories would be better. It shouldn’t be that difficult for Japan to keep hold of a least a sliver of the Chinese territory it would need to to keep that from happening. While China can be quite potent in defense it’s offensive capabilities require it to have a superior numbers which (rather counter intuitively) is very difficult for them to achieve in early, and even mid, game turns. I think Japan is able to forestall this just by focusing even a small portion of their troops already in China from the games outset.

    Japan is surrounded by 5 enemy nations, but it isn’t at war with all of them at once, and doesn’t have to go to war with one of them (the Soviets) at all if they so choose. Really when it comes down to it, Japan being able to ignore an enemy nation that begins the game at war with is wrong.


  • Customizer

    @Clyde85:

    Japan is surrounded by 5 enemy nations, but it isn’t at war with all of them at once, and doesn’t have to go to war with one of them (the Soviets) at all if they so choose. Really when it comes down to it, Japan being able to ignore an enemy nation that begins the game at war with is wrong.

    Yeah, especially when you consider that historically conquering China was one of Japan’s main objectives. They wanted China under their thumb for resources and manpower. That should have been accomplished before they went after SE Asia and the DEI. The only reason they ended up going south was because the war in China kept dragging on and Japan was running out of the materials they needed to continue the conflict. And, the only reason they hit Pearl Harbor and dragged the US into the war was because they saw the US Pacific fleet as the only real obstacle to grabbing and holding all the resource rich territory in the South Pacific.
    I would guess that if history was a little different and Japan actually had more of the resources that they needed, they might have simply kept pounding at China and not invaded the South Pacific territories or attacked the US fleet. At least possibly until they were actually successful in China.
    So, as far as the game goes, Japan shouldn’t be able to simply ignore China for any amount of time, no matter how much strategic sense it might make in certain scenarios.
    I think China was to Japan what Russia was to Germany. A vast expanse of land to conquer with millions of people to subjugate that ended up being too big a bite for them to chew.



  • I agree that histoically, it’s a crappy rule which allows Japan to leave China unchecked. However, as far as game play is concerned, ignoring China is a viable strategy.



  • @Young:

    I agree that histoically, it’s a crappy rule which allows Japan to leave China unchecked. However, as far as game play is concerned, ignoring China is a viable strategy.

    Ya know, History aside, I think its a crappy rule in general. I think it’s unfair to give Japan a fight they can choose to back out of, no other country in the game has that ability, why should they? I understand that it is a viable strategy and I can see how that would work for Japan (when Pacific first came out I was one of the few people saying that Japan only really needed to keep control of 3 Chinese territories to win the game and not conquer the whole country). I think this needs to be addressed though and Japan should face some kind of consequences for backing out of and ignoring the Chinese front.


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