Should you liberate France?


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '12

    Gamerman’s taking of France was effective in as much as it contained Germany in Wgr.  I just didn’t have enough to contain the USSR and fight the allies.  My hope was that I could keep the Allies checked long of enough to take the USSR.  I probably could have pushed them out of France, but then the USSR may have been able to push me back, which in my estimation would have been a far greater problem given the loss of NOs. Â

    If I had to theorize, I’d say liberating France can help the allies hold western Europe.  But the French don’t seem able to put together much of an attack force.  If you want to kill Germany quick, I’d say keep the US in the factories. Otherwise, it’ll be a longer slog. Â


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Well, if you perhaps made Paris an NO for Germany and take the NO from Moscow it might encourage the allies to liberate it more.


  • TripleA

    paris NO has much more power over a moscow NO (because you make that money early in the game).

    It’d be fair if the allies could even do a d-day to begin with, but they can’t. Maybe if USA got 10 more infantry and uk got 5…. you could see some landings.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '12

    In any event it is inexcusable they took away the London NO.  Like no one would care if London fell.



  • Following Idea:
    NO for taking Paris for Germany (+5 IPC/Turn) and even an NO for Germany for taking London (much harder if French could build in London +5 IPC/Turn).
    -France is after the fall of Paris still able to collect income and may use the UK-London Industrial complex as if it was a minor, French, Industrial complex.

    Why: Historically, almoust every european country, occipied by Germany, had an exile gouvernment in London and lots of volunteers fougth against Germany from their new homebase London/UK (people from Poland, Norway, France, Danmark, the Netherlands). I think it would be nice to reflect this by those small forces the French player could build.

    With the French income (~9-13 turn 1, ~6-7 every turn thereafter), the allied player would a) be able to build a defense for the UK, b) British money wolud be freed up to produce something more useful, c) French units such as transports, Bomber, Crusier, destroyer, submarines etc. could get used, d) a little more action in the atlantic even without major intervention of the US possible.

    Last but not Least: The French pieces in the game are useless. France is almoust never able to build something, in the rare cases it can, it will build at best Infanterie, Artillery, Armor, Fighter.

    Alternative:
    Remove all the French from the game and replace them with British troops. Add a +5 NO for France for Germany and change the turn-order to: Germany, USSR, Japan, USA, China, Italy, UK, ANZAC. That would be fine as well.

    Last: Remove those individuall wins on one half of the board. Its a global war and not completely seperated into Pacific and Europe. Get back to the 12/13 Victory cities on the global map. (Bid on the Victory cities for axis play).


  • '15 Official Q&A '11 '10 Moderator

    @cenator01:

    Alternative:
    Remove all the French from the game and replace them with British troops. Add a +5 NO for France for Germany and change the turn-order to: Germany, USSR, Japan, USA, China, Italy, UK, ANZAC. That would be fine as well.

    I love the idea of removing France as a playable power (I think ANZ being separate was a mistake as well) and changing the turn order to put somebody significant between Italy and Germany again. Unfortunately the window has closed for us to change the game that everybody plays and we’re reduced to house rules… Also, consider that with your proposal Germany would not get 19 IPC’s for taking France, but only 5 extra. If you agree that Germany should have a lot of money on G2 to pay for a threat to UK or to get Barbarossa kicked off, you would need to tweak something else if France is not a playable power.

    Last: Remove those individuall wins on one half of the board. Its a global war and not completely seperated into Pacific and Europe. Get back to the 12/13 Victory cities on the global map. (Bid on the Victory cities for axis play).

    YES, YES, YES. Although I think some other tweaks might be needed if you desire 50% Axis wins, because it will be harder for them to win if the Allies don’t have to worry about losing one of the theaters. The one board win thing keeps the Allies honest and the USA balanced, and with the current setup makes it easier for Axis to win although many people seem to think it’s too easy (probably the main reasons for the victory conditions).
    However, it’s stupid. The Axis can win without taking a single major capital, ever. (Washington, London, Moscow)
    The Axis can win just by Japan getting 2/3 of Calcutta, Honolulu, and Sydney (Hong Kong and Manilla are of course gimmes), no matter how successful the Allies are in Europe. If you have a game end this way, it just feels wrong, no matter which side you’re on. This was a horrible idea, but again, it’s too late for us to influence Larry as 2nd edition is out, and we will just have to house rule it and bid.
    Anyway, I think global victory cities (oh, I just saw you said bid on victory cities for Axis play - good idea - Axis should probably have a different # than Allies for the first time) is a great idea


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Cow:

    paris NO has much more power over a moscow NO (because you make that money early in the game).

    It’d be fair if the allies could even do a d-day to begin with, but they can’t. Maybe if USA got 10 more infantry and uk got 5…. you could see some landings.

    @Karl7:

    In any event it is inexcusable they took away the London NO.  Like no one would care if London fell.

    Compromise:

    Moscow, Russia NO is moved to Paris, France
    St. Petersburg, Russia NO is moved to London, England

    So we’re taking a hard to get and making it an easy to get, and an easy to get and making it hard to get.  Now capitols are VCs (Washington D.C., Warsaw, Berlin, Rome, Paris, Moscow, London) with the occassional minor VC that isnt a capitol (Stalingrad, unless I missed one.)

    I’d also like to see Alexandria and Cape Town (S. Africa) as Victory Cities (increasing the number Germany/Italy needs by +1) as Victory Cities.

    Lastly, I hate the Mongolian thing.  It’s useless for Russia and not too annoying for Japan.  Replace it with if Japan attacks Russia, then Russia gets +2 Armor, +2 Artillery in Buryatia, Yakut SSR, Amur, Sakha, Yenisey, Evenki, Siberia or Soviet Far East (at Russia’s discretion.)  That’s a true deterrant to war (+20 IPC, not bad since I’ve seen 21 IPC rules for Russia without it turning the war.)  That, along with Russia’s 18 Infantry stack, makes them an offensive force.

    So now, France is worth liberating; Russia’s worth not attacking; the South of Africa is worth hitting for BOTH sides of the war; and America does not get artificially inflated by taking French territories.



  • @cenator01:

    Alternative:
    Remove all the French from the game and replace them with British troops. Add a +5 NO for France for Germany and change the turn-order to: Germany, USSR, Japan, USA, China, Italy, UK, ANZAC. That would be fine as well.

    Nooooo!
    My french remaining troops have now and then saved the day thanks to them playing last.
    For example, I have diverted a Sealion once by manouvering french ships to SZ112 at the last moment, blocking Germany for an important turn).

    The seperate turn can be really useful if you use them well.


  • '15 Official Q&A '11 '10 Moderator

    @special:

    @cenator01:

    Alternative:
    Remove all the French from the game and replace them with British troops. Add a +5 NO for France for Germany and change the turn-order to: Germany, USSR, Japan, USA, China, Italy, UK, ANZAC. That would be fine as well.

    Nooooo!
    My french remaining troops have now and then saved the day thanks to them playing last.
    For example, I have diverted a Sealion once by manouvering french ships to SZ112 at the last moment, blocking Germany for an important turn).

    The seperate turn can be really useful if you use them well.

    But look at his proposed turn order.  UK goes between Italy and Germany, so your protest is moot


  • '15 Official Q&A '11 '10 Moderator

    Yes, Jenn, we’d probably be better off with you making these gameplay decisions than Larry Harris. And that’s a very scary thought 😉

    I appreciate the guy as much as anyone, but the whole 2 year debacle with 1940 has really made me question whether he knows what he’s doing.

    1. Mongolia rules are stupid and you are right if anything it helps Japan more than Russia because it opens up new attack routes and allows Japan to cross Mongolia North to South or South to North whereas before they couldn’t do that.

    2. Current Victory conditions are terrible

    3. Took him forever to fix scrambling. What was he thinking with the unlimited scrambling but only from islands in OOB? Made for some really strange strategies.

    4. Kept changing the turn order

    5. Kept changing the NO’s

    6. Kept changing the Japan/Russia relationship, and it STILL doesn’t work, as you noted

    7. OOB had USA almost impossible to break 82 IPC income

    8- Back to P40 - he tried to create a game where Japan attacks at different times. FAIL. J1 attack was the way to go every time, even for different gamers and aggressive vs. methodical personalities/strategies

    1. Huge AA gun changes in midstream

    2. China…… still messed up

    3. R&D… 😛

    4. And yes, France. There are many reasons to NOT liberate it. FAILURE.

    I’m getting depressed - I’d better stop

    Seriously, why are we talking about rule changes in this thread, though? Isn’t it too late to do anything about it? And if you want to house-rule, there is no need to convince everyone else your changes are a good idea - all you need to convince is your current opponent…


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    I like you Gamerman. You’ve got balls. I like balls!


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    For the record, my wife wrote that last.


  • '15 Official Q&A '11 '10 Moderator



  • @Gamerman01:

    @special:

    @cenator01:

    Alternative:
    Remove all the French from the game and replace them with British troops. Add a +5 NO for France for Germany and change the turn-order to: Germany, USSR, Japan, USA, China, Italy, UK, ANZAC. That would be fine as well.

    Nooooo!
    My french remaining troops have now and then saved the day thanks to them playing last.
    For example, I have diverted a Sealion once by manouvering french ships to SZ112 at the last moment, blocking Germany for an important turn).

    The seperate turn can be really useful if you use them well.

    But look at his proposed turn order.  UK goes between Italy and Germany, so your protest is moot

    Maybe a bad example (in which the Brits had no more ships left to block, was an OOB game i think, pre-scramble days), but France can still null certain italian actions.

    I can understand people not liking them, but i kinda do, same as with Anzac (which were more useful to me in the old playing order)

    Edit: didn’t look at that proposed order, but Italy before UK?! Really?

    Edit2: Isn’t UK (in the Med) dead meat if the Italian fleet and forces get the first initiative?



  • To remove all French pices from play was an alternative suggestion, but a changed turn order would likely need some setup tweek here and there. Elseway, if all French are replaced by british, you can’t let UK go before Italy. Italy would be a no Factor in the game, such as the just removed France. On the other hand, Germany would face a harder stand against the stonger UK and less money to spend on turn 2, so a longer fight against the USSR. This could offset the Major advances Italy would probably make.

    But my main suggestion is:
    -France is after the fall of Paris still able to collect income and may use the UK-London Industrial complex as if it was a minor, French, Industrial complex.
    NO for taking Paris for Germany (+5 IPC/Turn) and even an NO for Germany for taking London (much harder if French could build in London +5 IPC/Turn).

    With the French income (~9-13 turn 1, ~6-7 every turn thereafter), the allied player would a) be able to build a defense for the UK, b) British money wolud be freed up to produce something more useful, c) French units such as transports, Bomber, Crusier, destroyer, submarines etc. could get used, d) a little more action in the atlantic even without major intervention of the US possible.

    Last but not Least: The French pieces in the game are useless. France is almoust never able to build something, in the rare cases it can, it will build at best Infanterie, Artillery, Armor, Fighter. And its not a Major game change either.

    Why: Historically, almoust every european country, occipied by Germany, had an exile gouvernment in London and lots of volunteers fougth against Germany from their new homebase London/UK (people from Poland, Norway, France, Danmark, the Netherlands). I think it would be nice to reflect this by those small forces the French player could build.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    What I like, for turn order, is the following:

    Germany
    Russia
    Japan
    United States
    China (order is important rarely, but kill the issue NOW)
    Italy
    United Kingdom (all one power)
    Australia/France

    To solve the Italian issue with fleet deals:
    -1 Destroyer Italian
    -1 Transport Italian
    -1 Submarine Italian
    Move Alexandrian fleet to Suez Canal (east of Egypt, not north)
    Move the Gibraltan fleet to SZ 91
    Move the French fleet to SZ 87

    This ends the threat to the British fleet by an early Italy move, saves the Italian fleet so they are a threat to Africa, and does not suicide the French fleet for no real game purpose.  The fleets can still engage, the British/French can always move into the Med if they want (but Italy should get one round of the NO) and Italy being down a transport can stop it, but cannot take all of N. Africa (for instance) they’re moves are limited other ways.

    Also, this kills the whole issue with a dead nation having a turn of their own.  Just dump them on the Australian player as a semi-useless nation (they have units left, but no purchases/builds) so you are not holding up an entire game JUST so France can say “nah, I don’t want to do anything.”


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